Why is it difficult to remove perk tiers?
During the Q&A they said that it is difficult to remove perk tiers. Why?
Also they mentioned that it would not be a good long term solution, because the grind is increasing exponentially with new DLCs.
I agree that it is not a good long term solution, but it would be a good intermediate solution.
And a sidenote: the grind is increasing quadratically, not exponentially (with DLC releases).
Comments
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Yeah. This one was a head-scratcher.
It's definitely a stopgap solution, but it would still be a massive help.
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It's a very long term solution. Right now if we want to get all perks on Tier 3 in a new killer, you need to get 267 perk tiers. If you remove perk tiers, this goes down to only 87 perks. This also reduces the grind for the next killer at the same time because you now need to grind 90 perks instead of 276.
For the number go up again to 267, BHVR needs to release another 60 killers, which in the current schedule would take 15 years.
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Probably is rooted in the code too deep and they would need to change bloodweb along with it or something.
But if they know its needed why not just increase BP gain or something until they are able to change perk tiers? I really dont get that answer
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Probably because it's too integraded in the game's system.
I'm not an expert on it but i'm sure it's not just a case of ctrl clicking all the tier 1 and 2 perks and hitting delete.
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It's just an excuse to keep the grind as insane as it is. End of story.
Since the game's release people have given numerous suggestions on how to alleviate the grind. They generally fall on deaf ears.
The few implementations that Behavior has made to lessen the grind simply haven't been near enough to what would make this game better.
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As they said, it would be a band-aid fix. Something which the Community criticises the Devs for.
And, for me personally, removing Perk Tiers would remove a lot of excitement for new players. When I was new, getting Perks was the most exciting thing when leveling up my Characters. And if you remove Perk Tiers, you would run out of new Perks before you even have 4 Perk Slots unlocked.
So they should rather look at other solutions.
But I know the community will not understand it that the Devs dont want to remove Perk Tiers and will keep asking for it.
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You have a little flaw in your calculation, you forget that the new perks need to be unlocked on old killers.
Currently there are 26 killers and 90 killer perks (26*3 unique ones and 12 generic).
So to unlock all the perks on 3rd tier on all the killers you need to go through 26*90*3=7020 perk buys.
If they would remove perk tiers the killer grind would reach the current levels at 46 killers:
46 killers would mean 150 killer perks which would need 46*150=6900 perk buys.
So this means that removing perk tiers would help for the next 20 killer releases which is by the current pace around 5 years.
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First it's a bandaid fix like @Aven_Fallen and the devs during the Q&A said.
They also implied that removing perk tiers would force them to rework all the perks in the game? But they wouldn't have to, they would just take the highest tier and make that the perk. So I'm not entirely sure. It probably DOES have to do with how it is in the coding.
One thing they are right about is it would only be a bandaid fix, but I think that the devs don't realize, even though the grind will get eventually worse again, there is a strong possibility the game is dead by then. 270 and 303 perks respectively narrowed down to 90 and 101, it'll be a while before you get to those massive numbers again. I still get the point that it means the grind will continue to get worse every new release again.
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I doubt that it would be more difficult to remove than to do some even more advanced rework.
It can't be rooted too deep in the system, all that changes in perk tiers are some constants.
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It is a "bandaid" fix, which would actually be helpful for the next 5 years. The killer grind would reach current levels after 5 years. See my calculation a few comments above.
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Bandaid fix, but actually it would be helpful for the next 5 years. The killer grind would reach current levels again only after 5 years. See my calculation a few comments above.
It can't be that hard to remove, because the differences between tiers are just some constants. It would not require code changes in actual game code. They would need to just change a bit the blood web code.
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"But I know the community will not understand it that the Devs dont want to remove Perk Tiers and will keep asking for it."
That's probably because the community is correct to be upset at a lack of a solution to the grind issue.
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It depends what the Devs are planning.
E.g. if they would make the option to get 3 Perks in a Level 50 Bloodweb (out of 6), this would also reduce the grind by 33%. Not 66% like removing Perk Tiers, but if they increase the BPs you gain in games, this might also help a lot.
(Plus, more BPs is always a good feeling when playing)
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Until the devs actually show something, the community continues to be correct in being upset.
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Cutting the grind by 66 percent would be an acceptable bandaid to start out with.
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How the hell is removing perk tiers not a long term solution, lmao.
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Yes, why use a bandaid solution asked for by the vast majority of people during these discussions when you can instead buy yourself another 6 months of time by saying you are looking for a "real" solution. It is quite genius really. I can agree with that.
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I hate hearing this sort of answer every time the devs respond to stuff.
"That wouldn't be a good solution, because the grind increases exponentially but this solution is a flat reduction."
You know what's NOT a good solution to the grind increasing rapidly every patch? DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT IT FOR YEARS ON END BECAUSE MOST OF THE OPTIONS ARE FLAT REDUCTIONS.
Seriously, outside of bloodpoint gains/caps being manually increased by the same percentage as the cost to get every perk maxed on every character increases, what possible solution would fix an ever-growing grind permanently?
Even then, a flat reduction by removing perk tiers WOULD have a permanent effect, because every patch would grow the cost to max the perks by 1/3 of the amount it currently does.
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Why don’t they cut the price in half of the things in the Bloodweb? Could be easier to do than removing perk tiers.
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Yeah.
Removing perk tiers would delay the problem by 5 years: we would have the same amount of grind like today in around 5 years. Which is I think a good enough intermediate solution. Maybe the game won't even exist in 5 years or if it still exists, then the devs will have plenty of time to come up with a "long term" solution.
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To go into details on that a little bit, removing them is not as simple as selecting tier 1/2 of each perk and pressing delete. In order to reduce each perk to one tier, you'd have to update the bloodweb to support it (and additionally, add support for any already-generated bloodwebs that contain perks below tier 3). Likewise, the perk tiers would have to be removed from the UI wherever they appear, and any place a tier 1 perk could appear (e.g. In the Shrine), you'd have to update it to show the tier 3 version of the perk instead.
So while it sounds very simple and can be said in a couple words ("Remove perk tiers"), it would actually be a substantial amount of work.
As for why it's not a permanent solution: Each time new content is released, not only does the amount of perks increase, but the number of characters you need to unlock all those perks on increases as well. Since you have two different factors increasing here, the grind is increasing exponentially over time, not linearly. Even if removing perk tiers would make it manageable for now, sooner or later it would catch back up and become a massive grind again. We've made changes in the past to reduce the grind, such as reducing bloodweb cost/size, adding additional perks to bloodwebs, etc. While these worked great in the short term, the grind always caught up eventually.
Would it reduce the grind pretty significantly for now? Yes, absolutely! But if we're going to spend a bunch of time on something to fix the grind, it makes more sense to spend the same amount of time and work on a permanent solution instead. (And for what it's worth, we do have something else planned for it!)
Long story short, it's not to shoot down the idea of removing perk tiers. It would reduce the grind, absolutely. It would just take as much time as a more permanent solution.
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Ok but like, can you come up with a solution then or will we have to keep waiting with your "soon"?
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Beyond the grind aspect of "removing" perk tiers, wouldn't getting rid of the small bonuses open up way more possibilities for perk designs? I imagine that there are many perk ideas that have been scrapped because they couldn't fit a modifier. Right now every perk has to have a modifier of some kind to accomodate 3 tiers. With certain perks that can feel rather arbitrary.
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Understandable, but - to play Devil's Advocate a bit, it feels like you are asking players to deal with a very real and very annoying issue now for a hypothetical solution at some distant later date.
Why not, say, increase BP gains across the board by 2x until this solution arrives, in that case? This strikes me as very easy to do and an immediate and effective reduction in grind.
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The logic here is sound, but I'm curious- has it ever been raised internally that removing perk tiers would also allow for more freedom in perk design, as there doesn't need to be a scaling effect?
Not a question intended to be nasty, but I am curious. It seems to me like a stopgap solution that also has that added secondary benefit would be worth the time investment, though naturally, I'm not actually in the business myself.
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Thanks for the reply.
I understand that it is not a long term solution, because the grind is increasing quadratically (not exponentially, or please explain why is it exponential instead of quadratical). But based on my calculations the killer grind would come back to current levels only after ~5 years. 5 years seems like a good intermediate solution. The number for survivor is probably similar.
Yeah, it is not just pressing a delete button, but updating blood web code and UI also can't be that difficult.
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This is another excellent question.
Perk tiers feel like an odd and outdated concept. It's also not even slightly universal, some perks are almost as good at T1 as T3, while others are useless until T3.
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I'm fine with perk tires if we could just get more BP per match. Make this blood rush base kit or something
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If you can recode nurse entirely, surely you can do this.
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More BP is not an ideal solution: you will be able to buy more addons/items than you can actually spend by playing. So lower tier addons and items will become useless.
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What is the difficulty by simply reducing the cost on the bloodweb?
Like all 3000 items cost 1500, all 5000 2500... That would also reduce the grind immensly.
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My thoughts:
Possible problem: everything is so cheap that you can buy more items/addons/offerings than you can actually use while playing. It would make lower tier addons/items/offerings useless.
That's why in my opinion having the perks in the same bloodweb as addons/items/offerings is not a good system. But this would mean a larger rework which is not a topic of this thread.
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I'm fine with them putting in a substantial amount of work to reduce the grind when I've already put over 1k hours in and some people even more.
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If you want a better suggestion, for reducing the Grind. How about making it so that Players that decide to Prestige their Characters, will no longer lose their perks in the process. I do not mind if I lose some items, offerings, and add-ons in general (Except for rare Event items). I feel the Grind would be bit less stressful if Players can Prestige their characters without "restarting over" and losing their precious perks that they work hard in spending Bloodpoints on, and some folks refused to Prestige for the sake they do want to keep their character's load outs max out
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Created a short video presentation about it.
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They're a multi-millionaire company, if they wanted to remove perk tiers, they can definitely achieve it so the excuse of ''well the programming is difficult...'' or whatever is nonsense to me.
They simply will not do it because it lessens the grind in this game, and thus, the amount of money they will make people will play the game less. They do not actually care for our experience in this game, merely for their wallets.
That's why.
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If you want to get your "permanant" solution to fixing the grind out first because it will take just as much time to remove the perk tiers, I can accept that, but I will NEVER accept it if you choose to not remove them eventually. These perk tiers are an unnecessary residual part of the game that just needs to go.
The more perks that get added to the game, the more people are going to resent that these perk tiers exist to begin with.
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Haven't been able to find any info, so I'm assuming it's a similar situation to the colourblind settings.
In which case, would it be possible to be a bit more transparent on what's being done? Rather than saying "We're working on something, trust." Paraphrasing of course, but the point stands.
It'd be easier on everyone if more information was made public in regards to features the entirety of the community wants, preferably before anyone is pestered to the point of getting angry at someone asking them a question.
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Basically what peanits said but they still fail to realize it's still removing 2/3's of the grind which is better for now cause imagine in the future while they still don't have a way to reduce the grind. Imagine having 50 killers and like 50 survivors that you have to get tier 1, 2, and 3 instead of just getting tier 3 perks. Yeah no one is gonna "have fun" getting those perks.
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I mean, in regard of the temporary part, removing the perk tiers would give them 10 years to come up with a solution before they reach the point of grind we have now.
Should be enough time. But maybe thats just me.
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As for why it's not a permanent solution: Each time new content is released, not only does the amount of perks increase, but the number of characters you need to unlock all those perks on increases as well. Since you have two different factors increasing here, the grind is increasing exponentially over time, not linearly. Even if removing perk tiers would make it manageable for now, sooner or later it would catch back up and become a massive grind again. We've made changes in the past to reduce the grind, such as reducing bloodweb cost/size, adding additional perks to bloodwebs, etc. While these worked great in the short term, the grind always caught up eventually.
A suggestion I proposed for that a while ago: Prestiging a character permanently unlocks one/all of their perks for -everyone-. That way, any character on P1 permanently cuts grind, even for new characters.
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I think I have a mid road solution. You unlock tier one then instead of buying bloodweb after bloodweb you can purchase tier 2 as another item, offering or add on is sealed off and you get to tier 3 without needing to go through hundreds of thousands if not millions of bloodpoints. There are still 3 tiers and the luck of waiting for the perk you want is reduced to needing it only one time. You guys think this would be a good one?
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Note: it would give them 5 years, still a long time.
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Perks tiers are just fine i have no problem with them at all just leave them alone, let it go people geeze!
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I think it would just be faster to double our bloodpoint gain until they fix it and it would actually be as simple as flipping a switch.
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I hope permanent solution comes sooner than later
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"It's a bandaid solution". Are we going to pretend that BHVR doesn't love bandaid solutions?
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You'd think a company making millions with thousands of employees would be able to do something that requires a "substantial amount of work".
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If they ever removed perk tiers i imagine that every perk would have to be adjusted to cost about 12k to 15k bp to compensate
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