Is there really no counter play against Legion?

Not a whole lot you can do against a Legion. As others have said, run early and force him to catch up.

You might also be able to learn the correct timing for pallet stuns, but unfortunately, that can be really inconsistent.

You could probably pull off some stealth plays, but it will take some cleverness considering a lot of Legions are using Bloodhound.

The main issue with Legion is he/she is so boring to verse as survivor. And I really mean that. It's not fun versing the most brain-dead killer in the game.

The best advice I can give is to keep your distance and hope your team is efficient. Running perks like Kindred will help your team coordinate better.

Also, don't heal against a legion. That wastes time. Just go back to doing gens. Decent survivors shouldn't be afraid of a Legion while injured.

@Orion said:
There are counters, but most Survivors DC if the first two things they try don't work and come to the forum begging for nerfs.

I'm genuinely curious, whats the counterplay?

There are strategies to mitigate his effectiveness, sure, but I have yet to see an actual possible counterplay.

Ryuhi said:

@Orion said:
There are counters, but most Survivors DC if the first two things they try don't work and come to the forum begging for nerfs.

I'm genuinely curious, whats the counterplay?

There are strategies to mitigate his effectiveness, sure, but I have yet to see an actual possible counterplay.

@HatCreature said:
Entitled selfish people disconnect. You can counter Legion by stunning wit pallets, looping for as along as you can, I once had a Survivor find an awesome tractor loop on Autahaven that I could not catch him on, it was embarassing. But mostly your goal is to loop and run from that killer for as long as possible so that your teammates can do Gens. Legion is normally slow and I run him around for ages forcing him to use his FF on me, and none of them want to but realize they must.

Also if you're on console you can juke him really hard.

this applies to every killer, we're looking for a counter against legion.

@HatCreature said:

@MyNamePete said:

@HatCreature said:
Entitled selfish people disconnect. You can counter Legion by stunning wit pallets, looping for as along as you can, I once had a Survivor find an awesome tractor loop on Autahaven that I could not catch him on, it was embarassing. But mostly your goal is to loop and run from that killer for as long as possible so that your teammates can do Gens. Legion is normally slow and I run him around for ages forcing him to use his FF on me, and none of them want to but realize they must.

Also if you're on console you can juke him really hard.

this applies to every killer, we're looking for a counter against legion.

On console Legion specifically gets juked very hard.

lmao yeah that's true, but I was applying that with the other stuffs you s p o k e

@MyNamePete said:

@HatCreature said:

@MyNamePete said:

@HatCreature said:
Entitled selfish people disconnect. You can counter Legion by stunning wit pallets, looping for as along as you can, I once had a Survivor find an awesome tractor loop on Autahaven that I could not catch him on, it was embarassing. But mostly your goal is to loop and run from that killer for as long as possible so that your teammates can do Gens. Legion is normally slow and I run him around for ages forcing him to use his FF on me, and none of them want to but realize they must.

Also if you're on console you can juke him really hard.

this applies to every killer, we're looking for a counter against legion.

On console Legion specifically gets juked very hard.

lmao yeah that's true, but I was applying that with the other stuffs you s p o k e

Ok cool glad that's a known thing lol, yeah no real counterplay.

DemonDaddy said:

Stealth

Multiple counters to Legion, however I will admit that Frankie's mix tape and dirty blade give him a good buff (Considering he needs a buff).

When Legion uses feral frenzy, break the line of sight after being hit, no scratch marks and the speed buff makes it easy to lose him.

When Legion uses feral frenzy, a well timed pallet drop will completely drain him of all his frenzy and stun him.

When Legion doesn't use his frenzy, he can be looped almost as badly as Huntress.

@The_Trapper said:
Multiple counters to Legion, however I will admit that Frankie's mix tape and dirty blade give him a good buff (Considering he needs a buff).

When Legion uses feral frenzy, break the line of sight after being hit, no scratch marks and the speed buff makes it easy to lose him.

When Legion uses feral frenzy, a well timed pallet drop will completely drain him of all his frenzy and stun him.

When Legion doesn't use his frenzy, he can be looped almost as badly as Huntress.

If legion loses you after a single hit, then he was never intending to chase you to begin with. If he was, he's going to be able to get right back on you since the stun doesn't happen until the second hit (after which he will see blood, and scratch marks will load back in while he recovers.) If anything, losing him in this scenario will start your DW timer, giving you less ability to get distance and/or hide before being immobilized. Its not a counterplay.

Trying to hit the legion with a pallet drop isn't impossible, but its absurdly improbable. If you ever get to a pallet in a chase, the legion will pause for a second knowing you want to throw it, then start a staring contest. If you throw the pallet too early (highly likely) then it will miss, he leaps over, and gets a free tag unless he ran out of frenzy (at which point, again, he will see blood and scratch marks spawn in.) Otherwise he will usually lunge through after a moment knowing you wont be able to react fast enough to an attack with 132% movespeed within that short of a distance (especially through latency.) Even if you DO manage to land the pallet smack, he sees blood and scratch marks spawn in, letting him know where you went. Again, not a counterplay.

Legions "not using their frenzy" is not a realistic scenario, since its something that is only ever done by bad legion players 90% of the time. Because of the near impossibility to lose him, its almost always better to just start the frenzy (even on wounded players) and the absurdly-in-your-favor chase that follows. If you can land an m1 without having to chase against someone wounded, that will indeed be optimal. But the moment you need to do a chase you should generally be using FF to make afforementioned looping non-existent. again, not a counterplay.

The common trend here is that when chasing is concerned, the survivor is at the mercy of how good or bad the legion player is. The survivor needs to do everything they can to be efficient outside of chases, and use strategies to mitigate the legions overall effectiveness, but there is no way to actually COUNTERPLAY a legion during an altercation (i.e. a chase.) There are only ways for the legion to lose the chase for himself, and even then he gets an automatic second chance due to the DW timer.

so basically that was the longest winded "I lose people as legion sometimes, so you're wrong" I've ever seen. You bring into account my ability to play survivor multiple times in your response, but you ignore the fact that design problems stemming from a killer's lack of ability does not equal counterplay. Every single one of those "answers" revolved around the killer messing up. Thats not how counterplay works.

I personally don't hate playing against the legion, but I have seen enough of him from both sides to know what he is and isnt capable of. The point of the discussion is that a legion who does not mess up will never lose a chase vs a survivor of equal or higher skill. The survivor can draw the chase out, but it WILL end in them down unless the legion makes big mistakes. The reason so many people take issue with this is because even the nurse has more counterplay due to her being required to blink to catch up to survivors, and survivors being able to manipulate her landing spots with obstacles as well as LoS blocking and actual mindgames therein.

@Milord said:
Let me get this right... So the counter against Legion is to make someone a sacrificial goat while the other 3 survivors gen rush?

Not really, I mean this is how my games with good leigons go:
Someone gets hooked, if we are smart we know to not all try to help them at once.
Leigon walks off looking for someone else, finds someone else, hits them up 1-2 times, sometimes floors them, leaves to check on who's being saved
Usually the other 2 people are trying to save/heal the person unhooked and end up getting smacked up thus wasting time
Person unhooked gets hooked
Someone else gets hooked
Everyone is injured and not doing gens

Against a leigon even something like Kindred would be useless if your team doesnt have their wits about. Usually if I play in a Sw1f match against a good leigon we end up being the last 2 dead and giving each other the hatch or just dying. It's hard to play with randoms against a good leigon and I assume that one of those swf types who uses Borrowed Time, Instaheals, Selfcare, DS all that stuff my team wouldn't use all at once would be difficult for me to play with too since they're overly altruistic

@Zarathos said: The dbd meta has always been the chase. Never ever stealth or evasion. Nurse is the only force right now that promotes losing the killer and stealth. We need more killers like legion. A threat that rewards us for being evasive and punishes players for only understanding looping mechanics with no knowledge of evasion tactics or controlling the trail of your scratch marks.

I agree with you for the most part on all that, I hate facing a good Leigon as a survivor main, but at the same time, I LOVE how Spirit and Legion forces survivors to think smarter and be on high alert when you're in big groups or someone gets hooked. I personally get immersed in it. If your team can force Legion to spend more time looking around, gen patrolling (if I can control it, I try to make my team do gens in a specific order or I do my gens based on how they do it), or camping (assuming they ever do). Then you'll be fine. I think survivors will feel better when they realize that they need to break out of old habits. I only started playing this game during the december 2018 double bp event and thankfully so because I'm still learning this game as it's changing.

@The_Trapper said:

@Ryuhi said:
so basically that was the longest winded "I lose people as legion sometimes, so you're wrong" I've ever seen. You bring into account my ability to play survivor multiple times in your response, but you ignore the fact that design problems stemming from a killer's lack of ability does not equal counterplay. Every single one of those "answers" revolved around the killer messing up. Thats not how counterplay works.

I personally don't hate playing against the legion, but I have seen enough of him from both sides to know what he is and isnt capable of. The point of the discussion is that a legion who does not mess up will never lose a chase vs a survivor of equal or higher skill. The survivor can draw the chase out, but it WILL end in them down unless the legion makes big mistakes. The reason so many people take issue with this is because even the nurse has more counterplay due to her being required to blink to catch up to survivors, and survivors being able to manipulate her landing spots with obstacles as well as LoS blocking and actual mindgames therein.

If you could kindly read my responses properly, as I am doing with your drivel.

I explained that it was a tactic that has worked for me, and against me as Legion, so I am not the only one doing it. In the words of Don King, "If I can do it, you can do it...". Not to mention other people saying the same thing as me on this thread.

Your next comment made me raise an eyebrow, if a killer does not mess up, how do you counter play them exactly? How do you counter a nurse who does not mess up? How do you counter a Hillbilly or a Huntress? I am eager to know, because if they play 100% without fault, they will always win. Every counter play is using the killer's advantage against them.

If you play at 100%, never messing up: You will never lose a survivor lmao it does not matter who the killer is, in fact Legion's chases would be longer than other killers, so the point you try to make here is invalid.

ANY survivor getting chased will eventually get downed, that is how it works. The survivor is not supposed to be able to win a chase by any other means than losing the killer.

You point out Nurse's flaws but you have consistently said that a "Legion who never messes up" has no counterplay, as stated earlier, this applies to Nurse so there was not much point in you saying that.

the dictionary definition of counterplay is "a countering move or maneuver in a game or competition ." Its usage in modern games is in regards to ones ability to defend/prevent/nullify/etc against an unfavorable aggressive tactic. The vast majority of killers, unfortunately, are TOO susceptible to survivor counterplay, like you mentioned. Pallets and windows, just by nature of even being in the game, are counterplay tools. As is abusing the differences in hitbox size and acceleration rates to minimize the killer's speed difference (aka looping.) Many killers are tiered and balanced by their ability to counterplay THOSE counterplays, such as trapper/hag trapping loops, clown bottles slowing, etc. These are examples of skill based counterplay and how it reflects to specific applications.

The reason why all of your suggests are strategies and not actual counterplay is because they do not address what counterplay actually IS. Thats why the killer skill comments are necessary: Counterplay is supposed to be a nullification at worst, a reversal at best. When a counterplay is applied to a scenario, there should be a very good chance of anywhere from a progress reset to completely turning the tables.

For the nurse she can completely lose a survivor and waste a ton of time trying to find them, especially since her movement speed is so low without teleporting. Many of her addons considerably lower survivors' ability to counterplay her, as many counterplay tactics will either stop working or be much less effective due to the weaknesses they target being less glaring. An example of nurse counterplay that have varying levels of success depending on addons are using terrain/obstacles to make her blink distances just far enough for the player to dodge an attack (or even cause the nurse to hit a wall/object instead of the player.) If the survivor does this correctly, the nurse will hit the wall or nothing at all, and go into her stun allowing the player to go for another tactic/get space/hide/etc. It is not an absolute tactic, but the better the survivor knows nurse timings/distances/etc the more likely they are to successfully apply it.

Switch back to the Legion offered counters, and they are counter strategies but not counterplay. Deep Wounds, and its ease of application, creates a net loss at each strategy that could be considered a counterplay. There is no net null unless the killer loses you entirely, since even vaguely being able to track you will cause a timer until you are immobilized and easily downed. This is what many people are the most frustrated with and what constitutes the worst balance: being punished for successfully applying what should be counterplay. The second DW is applied, it becomes non-existant. You could argue that there is counterplay BEFORE DW is applied, and you're right. The crux of the issue is that its a mechanic that the legion can apply easily and liberally, yet survivors have no way of DIRECTLY countering. That is why, more than any other killer, the absolute ending of each chase is determined by the legion.

Iron Will + Urban Evasion is your best bet for getting away, though if you can't hide your blood in grass you're screwed.