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Why should survivors "git gud" but not killers?
Just an honest question. If a survivor complains about something that is OP, they are told to "git gud", but if the reverse happens, "survivors OP". So it takes no skill to play survivor, but also they should "git gud" (skill?), but a killer has every right to complain and being a survivor is just OP? So it is not at all possible for some killers to just suck at the game?
Source: This forum and dbd subreddit.
IMO, this game is very good at showing skill gaps for both sides. Plenty of killers can steamroll even SWFs(E.G. Otzdarva) who I would consider an extremely skilled killer, and plenty of survivors can run a good killers brains out. However, the average for both sides are nowhere near the skill ceiling of skilled players. I'm not here to say survivors are OP or that killers are OP. I think some killers/perks have their advantages and some survivor perks have their advantages, but I think removing skill from the killer POV is just ridiculous and completely disingenuous .
For the record, I think this game suffers massive balance issues from each end that can make either side frustrated. But from what I see on this forum and subreddit is that Killers are always right and immaculate in their thoughts, but if a survivor has anything negative to say about their experience...it's "bait, lol". How about some of you killers just "git good". Maybe you just suck and are a hypocrite.
Comments
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The game is so tilted in favor of survivors that when they complain it does seem petty.
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You read 0 of my post and only read the headline, but thanks for confirming my point.
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Where are the statistics that say that the game is favoring survivors aside from the comments on these forums?
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Oh please. The phrase "git gud" alone is nothing more than an empty jab at a person when the one giving it has nothing productive to say.
Also it gets thrown both ways and not exclusively to survivors.
And to your underlying statement that survivor posts get treated worse than killer. Imagine which side has the option to play in a group and banter about their problems to each other and which is alone and comes only to public places for expressing their gripes?
And yes more than often enough some of the suggestions made from "survivor mains" are exaggerated. Just like a post i just read comparing Hex: Pentimento to boons and assuming that the rekindled totem also would contain the original hex effect. Assumptions/statements like these let many survivor posts seem ridiculous.
But also many killer proposals get seen as nothing but "bait" if they show the same amount of being over the top.
And again to the point of why some of these public discussion places seems skewered more towards one side, that's the one that can't talk with friends about their experience in detail and real time (right after something happened) like the other. And from my experience during peak hours (between 8 pm and 1am), survivor play less than 50% solo and have someone to vent their frustration together.
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That's a great question. Lets see the statistics BHVR.....
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This is an incredibly loaded question. People that complain about survivors and people that complain about killers are not a unanimous monolith. There are morons in both.
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Great point about the common argument that survivor takes no skill and yet they are also supposed to learn to play against killers and adapt to buffs, new powers, mechanics, etc.
Another common theme on the forums is that if the killer gets kills it's because the survivors were potatoes but if the survivors escape it's because the game favors them.
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There are plenty of legitimate gripes from the survivor side voiced constantly, and many of them have to do with killers exhibiting a lack of skill and using undesirable playstyles (camping/tunneling). And there is are plenty of times the killer get shamed for lack of skill (git gud, GGEZ, etc.), so I think the notion that survs somehow suffer in silence is kind of a non-starter.
And no one should be told to "git gud"; if you're out of your depth on either side, you know it. You may try to play it off or deflect, but you know.
And in my experience, most of the "git gud" directed at survs comes from teammates.
And I know this is a source of debate among many, but the skill floor for killer is higher than the one for survivor (though not really significant for either side). And an unskilled killer stands out a lot more than an unskilled surv, a fact compounded by the fact that survs have a team to blend into. The game demands less of survivors than killers; and the climb from noob to being competent is a lot quicker for survivors.
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Well, it is because if you improve as a survivor, you are only ever really going to die if you are targeted first and tunneled/camped out of the game.
If you improve as a killer, the only kills you will get are the altruistic gifts. Genuinely, if you want easier killer games, you should NEVER git gud. You need to throw down, actually. Get to where survivor mains play killer and you will be in a 4k heaven until your mmr goes back up.
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The Killer and Survivor role both have a skill ceiling to them, however there are RNG factors that tilt specific matches in the favour of each side which can make it feel really unfair at times
Map offerings, big example. If the killer burns a map that favours them - not only do they know what map they are going to but they can prepare in advance. Be that picking a specific killer, loudout etc. Obviously the same applies to survivors in every way.
Map RNG itself is another factor. I've seen some tile layouts on backwater swamp maps that heavily favoured survivors with many pallets in the middle and layouts that favoured killers with massive deadzones in the middle.
I recently played a game on RCPD where, no word of a lie:
There was three generators in a straight line near the S.T.A.R.S office. Two in the hallways outside of the office and one in the showers.
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This question is based on a faulty premise.
Killers ARE told to "git gud". Like, all the time.
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The man said "Tilted in favor" not "SURVIVOR OP NERF!!!!!" and "SEEM petty" not "IS petty", and I'm inclined to agree.
Not to pour gas on the fire or anything, it's just the comment was very timid and not at all aggressive as one would expect xD
For a start there are 4 of them and 1 killer, you can be good, but can't be in 4 places at once, second the killer is playing in first person, and survivors in third, and even in non SWF teams, they can coordinate in pre game chat, that shows A TILT like he said, nothing else.
But again, you are right, someone like Otz, Tofu, Monto can still get regular 4Ks, the game is just designed with the tilt he mentioned in his comment, it's just some people, and these are proffessionals, can overcome it usualy by playing off survivors mistakes and nothing more.
However, your point is valid! It does suck when you are a new survivor and don't know the layout of every map and don't know how to chain tiles togeather and the killer is just on your ass the whole game tunneling you out of the match so he can maybe win a 3v1, my point is both sides have it rough :(
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Because as a whole, survivors dont seem to like "gitting gud".
See the whole Noed-debacle and survivor resistance to do bones, ust the hex or even expect to play around it. Meanwhile a lot of killers (are conditioned to) play like all survivors have DS, BT or DH. Baiting out DH and waiting for BT to expire has become natural behavior by this point.
Also as already mentioned, when kullers need to whine about "survivor OP", we dont have a lobby or Endchat ( or our swf buddies on comms).
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I honestly do not even complain because of how survivors sided the game is, I am just baffled that people could believe otherwise. It is like... Do they even play the game? Or both roles? It is baffling. I need to talk about it so much because a huge portion of this playerbase is willfully ignorant or something. It doesn't actually bother me that it is, it bothers me that people pretend it isn't.
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if you cherry pick your topics you can kinda say anything but really the "get good" taunt gets thrown around both sides plenty, the whole them vs us is really tiresome. There are bad players on both sides asking for unnecessary nerfs.
A lot of the problem stems from the most efficient play often has some hard counters that make people upset when they expect to win.
Smashing out gens and ignoring anything else gets you to endgame very fast, its very efficient high pressure play by survivors, but then NOED often gets maximum value because noone took the time to cleanse or even observe where totems were so they expect to escape but end up on the hard end of NOED at its strongest, the end result is boo hoo nerf NOED I expected to escape and didn't..
The same goes for killer hard tunneling someone out early applies the maximum pressure a killer can and is often the most efficient way to play, so everyone brings 1v1 chase extending perks as a hard counter and we get the same dull meta and everyone going boo hoo DH rewards bad play and extends chases too much etc etc.
There are some legitimate topics about how some mechanics work and/or might be improved to attenuate their strength but 9/10 threads are "I hate this boo hoo delete it/nerf it please".
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Killers complain more because most survivors are able to vent to other survivors/friends that play dbd. First place for killers to do that is on the forums which is why the forum are overrun by people that play killer. In other words there are just not as much survivors here to tell killers to git gud
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^ This...
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Imagine being that childish you still insult people in a game.
Side point, I get far more hate as killer than I ever have as survivor. Its almost guaranteed to receive some form of hate, hell iv gotten hate for just playing certain killers.
I would say killer definitely takes more skill, mainly because it's a 4v1 and you physically have to manage far more info and the game is currently working on giving survivors even more info in the game for free.
The most skillful thing in DBD is using powers or making reads, while the reads things is more just a guess the powers is something you need to learn and changes every killer. But telling someone to get good because they arent as good or didnt win is just toxic childish behaviour
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Survivors only gets told git gud when they say something like "nerf trickster too strong in chase nooooooo" and it's pretty legit.
Killers realistically can't say those kind of stupidity, not much they can "git gud" to deal with problems they have... unlike survivors.
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What you describe is confirmation bias. You see only survivors getting told to git gud. While actually both sides get told to git gud.
Just yesterday there was a thread from a new killer player who complained about the balance and most answers were some sort of rage comics.
Also, its save to assume that when someone writes gg at the end of the match, he really means git gud. Why? Because I almost never receive a gg when I win. Only when I lose.
But then again, this could just be my own confirmation bias.
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Well some killers start a game they virtually cannot win, while on the survivor end, while it happens sometimes, it’s way less frequent and you often go down because you made a mistake most of the time. That said for high tier killers like Blight or Nurse, if you lose, depending on the perks you used, it’s a skill issue. But you also have to take into consideration the fact that this game is asymmetrical, so it might favor survivors or killers from one game to another. So it’s sometimes a skill issue, and sometimes just purely unfair, for both sides.
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never saw anyone saying "git gud" whilst playing as survivor nor killer,
though i usually play as the demogorgon,so they're probably just trying to be polite to me,haha
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Omg is "gg = git gud" a thing? I always write GG at the end of the game but ALWAYS with the meaning "Good Game" like WP = Well Played, not... IDK... Weep Profusely?
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Yeah. Its probably just hard to accept *justified* nerfs to your side / fav character.
On forum behavior/ community, I fwel like survs get more leeway when proposing crazy stuff like perma BT or double DS. (See again NoeD rework ideas that need 6+ hooks).
As for balance discusdions? There are more killers agreeing with "buffing weak soli to swf" than survivors agreeibg with " boost weaker killers to strong, dont nerf the top".
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Some people mean good game. Others git gud.
A gg followed by a salty message certainly doesn't mean good game.
Just like gg ez.
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It's not confirmation bias. The forum and DBD subreddit are MASSIVELY killer leaning to an outrageous extent. The amount of "lol, bad bait" responses when a survivor has a complaint is ridiculous. I'm not saying the reverse NEVER happens, that would be delusional. But anyone with the ability to read can easily see these forums and subreddit are riddled with killer bias to an unbelievable degree. Like I said, if a survivor has a complaint, it's "git gud" but in the same breath "survivor takes no skill". I mean which one is it? Why do killers not apply this logic to themselves? It's like they all believe that they are God tier and their skill is never a question.
Again, I'm not making a claim one way or another about the game being balanced against one side. That's an extremely nuanced debate with many, many many factors. It just seems like on these forums or on reddit, the killer's skill is never in question. It's just weird.
Everyone is entitled to WANT to have the experience they desire when playing a video game. I mean, that's why we all play video games, right? To enjoy ourselves and have fun. There's just a massive bias against survivors here and it's like they're not allowed to have an opinion.
Like here's another example I constantly see on these forums if a survivor mentions camping/tunneling: "The killer can play how they want and they are not responsible for how much fun you have" but in the same breath talk about how DS/BT/UB make them miserable. So only killers are aloud to have any sort of complaints whatsoever? The game is just so ridiculously killer sided that the mere mention of a complaint from a survivor is "bait" and "entitled".
These are just my observations after being on these forums for a while.
Again, I'm not mentioning that I personally think survivors or killers are OP. I just find it aweful that people get berated for expressing their frustration as a survivor as if it's one of the 7 deadly sins.
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It's baffling that out of 10's of thousands of players, it's impossible for you to think that people can have drastically different experiences. What you just said is EXACTLY what my post is addressing. You have it in your mind that you're so unbelievably skilled that it couldn't possibly be anything you're doing, it HAS to be that the game is survivor sided. Never mind the statistics or other people's experiences. None of that matters...no no no no...Your word is law and streamers that get 100+ win streaks(4ks or 3+hatch) are just wrong and obviously pay survivors to throw the game so they can consistently get these wins. Couldn't possibly have ANYTHING to do with their skill, right?
Surely your comment is being sarcastic. You can't be so dense to completely miss the meaning of my post. It's incredibly ironic how many people are just not reading my post or are just blocking everything out then going on to prove exactly what I said, and get 20+ upvotes for doing so lol.
Meanwhile anyone going against the status quo for killers get no upvotes. Un-freaking-believable how so many of you are missing this.
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I don't disagree with any of this. And I think this is a conversation for another thread. My main reason for this post was just to point out how unbelievably killer biased and completely illogical and contradictory statements are constantly spewed on these forums. I have nearly 3k hours in this game and have played for years. I have plenty of complaints for both sides, but the mere mention of something from a survivor about a negative experience is met with extreme hostility, condescension and completely irrational beliefs that people couldn't possibly have different opinions/experiences. Hell, I can say with utter certainty that my experience drastically changes from night to night.
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We also have to deal with the devs as a third party. With any other dev team, both survivors and killers would have their complaints addressed and they'd be satisfied. But because this is BHVR, if we nerf killers they're getting nerfed hard, and if we buff survivors they're getting buffed hard. Can't do about it, nothing.
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It certainly isn't the kills and escape ratio. The statistic that includes disconnects and ignores context. Can't count how many games i have got aa 3 or 4k after all gens are done and the gates are open because survivors refuse to leave someone behind. The fact it is so close to 50% shows just how weak killers are tbh.
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So using these forums and subreddit... not your own games....
Really though I've been told to Git Gud way too many times before... and it came from survivors who were gloating or salty
I play fair (not Camping and Tunneling) and receive "Git Gud", "Baby Killer", "GGEZ"
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In an asymmetric game, how is a near 50% win rate not ideal? See, why is it believed that killers should win/get 4k-3ks much more often than the survivor escapes. That's already a massive flag for bias about killers. Also, the same can be said about context of killers. I can't tell you how many killers I've made DC just because I won't let them down me or get frustrated with being constantly juked. I've also experienced several "boosting" killers who are doing a daily with a killer they don't want to play and throw the game and everyone escapes without even being hooked. Do these situations also not skew the stats, or again, anything that veers away from the killer status quo on these forums just don't matter? Funny how you gave an example that would inflate killer stats, but completely skip over the fact that the opposite happens.
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I'm not going to sit here and say that you are wrong...
But there are some of us that have level heads about the differences in Killer and Survivor
We do come here to complain cause we are the only ones who plays the game (not in a group or party)... so yea it may seem like it's Killer favored but truly it's no more then players venting about a match that just got done
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Don't get me wrong buddy. I even said in my op that this game suffers from massive balance issues, but that's not what I was getting out. I think every single person is entitled to their opinion based on their own experiences. I'm not at all saying killers cannot have complaints, but here on these forums survivors cannot.
"I think maybe The Artist base speed should be 110% instead of 115%"
Response:
"Lol, bad bait 2/10" - 20 upvotes
"This is a joke, right" - 37 upvotes
etc...
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They do. The problem is my scenario happens way more from my own experience. It is rare to get a game where the doors instantly open and survivors just leave if someone is on the hook. a killer leaving is 4 escapes but how often does this happen?. A survivor disconnecting will likely result in 4 kills with the latter being way more common (every pinhead game)
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Yeah i'm not saying it doesn't happen in games. I'm specifically addressing the forums and reddit. You can camp and tunnel all you want. If that's how you want to play, more power to you, dude. I would only consider not playing fair if you're purposely increasing your ping to take advantage of killer client priority hits or using actual cheats. Otherwise, it's fair game.
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Here is the true reason.
Survivors run killer for 30sec then either get camped or tunneled. Resulting them die in 3min into the match. Survivors complained alot about camping & tunneling arent fun. And Killers responded with "gid gut"
So survivors had to gid gut and then able to run Killer for 5 Gens...
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Doesn't matter if it's 4 survivors, it's only one game's statistics. Whether you get a snowball 4k because of a DC or due to overly altruistic plays, Or the killer DCs or boosts the lobby resulting in a 4 man escape, they affect the statistics the same because it's for one match. And I certainly don't mean to be rude, but "in your own experience" is another example of bias as if other people can't possibly have different experiences. You're fixing your own personal experience on the larger image to confirm your bias on what you think without only anecdotal evidence and nothing with actual substance. Again, sorry if that sounds rude, but I thought I should point it out since this is what my whole post is about.
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Honestly... Why do you care about upvotes?
Yea there are toxic people that play this game (both sides got toxic players)
Some people upvote something like that as a way to show that they think the same rather then coming out and explaining why they think that way
You'd see less upvotes if people actually explained why they think like that
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There was a poll on this forum asking if the people here were survivor mains, killer mains or played both sides. The overwhelming majority of the players on this forum play both sides.
Despite the claims of a very loud minority that this forum is a killer echo chamber.
If you open a thread and complain about survivor perks, then you'll get the same amount of bait and git gud answers as someone who complains about killer perks.
In regard of camping, I'll never forget a streamer who sat there in the corn without moving, while he complained about the killer who stood in front of the hook. He failed to realize that they both did the same thing. But it's only seen as bad, when the killer does it.
Or let me rephrase it. If you see a gen at 90% and regressing. Do you leave that gen and go for a fresh one, or do you stay and wait for the killer to leave, so you can finish it?
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The threads do not reflect what you're saying in the slightest. I mean, I don't have anything else to say other than go look through the threads, and if you still disagree...well...um...you can lead a horse to water, right?
I'm sure it's completely impossible for either killers or survivors to claim they play one or the other or both in order to push their agenda by appearing to have a "nuanced" view by pretending to be the opposite side while saying something to benefit the other side.
It only works for steam, but people could easily post their stats if they wanted to prove they play both sides. For example, here's mine:
https://dbd-stats.net/profile/76561198024224074
Clearly very survivor heavy(90% solo q) but also hundreds of hours as killer
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Oh, of course. I know the game is killer sided at lower mmr. It all depends where you are and who you are playing. That is not really what I was alluding to or the types of posts that I personally address.
Unbelievably skilled? Bro... I just face camp into a Rancor. No idea what you are talking about. Anyone can do it; however, it is a one way trip to high mmr where the hopes and dreams of 12 hooking survivors is all but gone.
What statistics?
Yes, actually. I am very objective and you are clearly arguing from emotion. No offense intended, but that is useless to me, sorry if you struggle, I guess?
I do not really care about the meaning of your post as that was literally not what I was addressing. You can call me dense if it makes you feel better, but realistically, I believe you are just misunderstanding and/or doing what you have accused me of doing in regards to your holier than thou attitude.
I cannot control who is upvoting what, fam. It is really not that big of a deal. If you want the truth, they are probably just happy they aren't being gaslighted as usual. I just liked a post where someone was talking about being blinded by the side of the head, not because it was a great post, but because, finally, someone other than me noticed it happens. Lol.
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Because the game is survivor sided and extremely swf sided.
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I think one of the reasons for this way of thought is because the outcome of most killer/survivor interactions actually depend on the actions of the survivors. As a general thumb rule if the killer hits or downs a survivor, it's because that survivor made a mistake and the killer capitalized on it.
If the mistake hadn't been made, there would not have been a hit. It's not within the power of the killer to do it. Though it is within its power to induce such mistakes it's still very much a survivor "choice"
If a survivor makes no mistakes then the killer can't get to him. If the killer gets to him, the survivor made a mistake. Solution? Get good and make no mistakes.
It's a flawed argument and I don't entirely agree with it. It's also more prevalent with some killers, like basic m1 killers, but it explains what you asked
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Seriously, this all over.
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Wait.... people actually prepare if they know what map they're going to? I just say "haven't been to the eyrie if crows in a while...." No matter what side i play, lol
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That's the thing many survivors on the forms have pleaded screamed yelled for Killers to be nerfed but when asked have you tried learning the killer in question and they say no the killer is just OP and needs nerfed. So sitting the oh so classic "Get Gud" state to the side they need to learn more than hold W, M1, and predrop pallets.
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usually when I win I say, “gg you were really good!”
when I lose, “gg team was a** you were really good tho”
they usually respond nicely
i had one artist tho that tunneling out and sent me a message saying “easy”
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I feel like this whole post is addressing a strawman or an extreme part of the community, no matter what side you play, you should "git gud", balance of the game is not very balanced so some use it as a crutch to excuse their loss regardless of what potential mistake they have done in the moment but not to the extent that they have nothing to learn.
Post edited by Yatol on2 -
Both sides require skill, but at higher skill level the dynamic shifts heavily in survivor's favor. People on both sides make plenty of excuses, but in terms of real issues there are more for killer side at any given time, especially with how each killer is different from one another rather than just reskins like survivors (therefore having more factors in play to cause issues, see the nurse "fix" and subsequent "disabled while we figure out ######### went wrong"
Basically as survivor the higher your (and the people you match with) skill gets, the more survivor sided the game becomes. Therefore, gitting gud is unironically the answer to the vast majority of survivor complaints (certainly not all though, but almost always the ones people get really vocal about.) On the inverse, the higher your (and the people you match with) skill gets, the more things stop being excuses and start becoming valid concerns. Unfortunately all people can do is try to play around them, but in the end they're often just at the mercy of either the dev's balancing decisions, or their bugfixing ability.
Or they just camp, tunnel, and take their 1-2k because of how hard they're disincentivized from playing any other way.
Also worth noting, scrubs on both sides will parrot concerns they hear from better players as excuses even when they don't apply to themselves. That type of using people to validate their excuses doesn't even apply to their situation most of the time.
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