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Perk tiers have no real reason to exist anymore
So perk tiers, one of the biggest things that make the grind of this game way longer than it has any business being were discussed on one of the Q&As, the reasoning for not removing them was because it was considered a temporary fix and that it would become a problem again at some point in the future.
However as many people have already pointed out, at their current rate of adding perks to the game, it would take BHVR around 10 years to reach the level of grind that we have at the moment. Now that's a pretty damn long time and who's the say DBD will still be receiving updates by that point?
There is no reason for perk tiers to exist anymore, they only made sense when the game was smaller and there were not a lot of perks to begin with. Some perks barely matter which tier you use them at and some are not worth using unless they are level 3. You could immediately fix one of the main things that makes the grind so annoying by removing perk tiers, it honestly just feels like BHVR wants the grind to be super massive in order to keep people playing and lets be honest, if that's the case, it's not working.
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Because its a no brainer, why does it matter if its easier to get perks? With the huge amount of perks in the game it would still take time to get them all and you're never guaranteed exactly what you want. I guarantee you it'd be nothing but good for the game if they did this.
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Because that's the point?
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Because I dont play to grind but to enjoy the game? Cause I pay for dlc and perks and I want to try them and do combo? Cause dayly Challenges, Tome one and Achivments/trophys and prestiges are already a think to grind? Cause of almost 30 killers and survivors and 300 perks for them and 3 tiers for every are too much?
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You don't need all perks at tier 3. BHVR has committed to that, so if there are perks that dont work on low tier, give them the feedback.
What would be better is a part of the entity's web should always spawn a tier 1 perk if available.
Then a person could easily get all perks on a character,
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You can't see how that problem is immediately fixed upon removal of perk Tiers?
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The problem would also be fixed by unlocking all perks from the beginning. its about keeping the grind, without requiring the grind.
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Not too long ago I spend over 5.000.000 BPs to get a perk I wanted on a specific killer.
Until I got that perk, I just kept playing my usual killers, Nurse and Blight.
On the survivor side it is a lot more chilled. I have a handful of main survivors, the rest just gets leveled to 40 and send to the retirement home ;)
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Just a reminder that the devs have said a couple of times (including this morning in another thread) that they have a major revamp in the works to reduce the perceived grind. They haven’t given details yet but it’s entirely possible that either perk tiers will go away as part of it or the change they’re making will make perk tiers existing not be much of an issue (e.g. if they make it more like a shop where you can swap out unwanted things for things you’d like to use then perks having multiple levels isn’t as big a deal.)
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And the game still has a grind even if you only had to get each perk once. You still need to do it for all the characters you play.
The Dev's said in a Q&A that they wouldn't remove perk tiers because it would only be a temporary fix and become a problem again once they add more content to the game. People have worked out it would take 10 years of adding content to get to the current level of grind if they removed tiers. I know they have something planned for the grind but their reasoning for not removing them makes no sense.
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Actually what the devs said was that they didn’t want to remove perk levels by itself since it wouldn’t be a long term solution on its own. They didn’t say they wouldn’t possibly do it as part of a much broader revamp that they are looking at.
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That doesn't make the game too easy at all. It makes it more accessible, which is a good thing.
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Do you think 10 years is long term or not cause that's a pretty long time. I'm fine with them coming up with a way to reduce the grind if it works but they have not given an explanation about why they wouldn't remove perk tiers that makes sense.
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Their explanation made sense to me. It was that rather than spend a ton of development time removing perk tiers and then having to deal with the issue again in a couple years they may as well spend a bit of extra time now in a broader way that they won’t hopefully have to revisit again.
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How else are you supposed to get a sense of pride and accomplishment???
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You keep ignoring the fact that its proven this wouldn't even be a problem again for 10 years and there's no guarantee DBD will even be getting updates at that point. This is why the explanation makes no sense, they're acting as if in a year we'd be back to square one and we would not. Also don't act like it would take a "ton of development time" to remove perk tiers.
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Where are you getting this “10 years” thing from?
And why do you think it wouldn’t take a ton of development time to go through 180 perks individually and remove the lower tier ones? That’s not a simple change.
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Yeah, Perk tier's are overkill in my opinion.
The perks themselves are inexpensive in terms of BP's (6K BP for tier 3 and 5K for the teachable), but think of the millions of BP's it often takes just to have the specific teachable you want to appear in another character bloodweb - all those useless common addons and generic useless perks (Deja Vu, Slippery Meat etc) that no one uses.
I'd far rather a 'store' where you could select specific perks/add ons/items but for a higher cost, and all perks are one tier. That way, you still have to play the game and earn your bloodpoints, but you have more control over what you spend them on. For example, a perk could be 100K BP's (hypothetically), so you'd still have to grind a little but at least you know you'll be able to get the perk you want, rather than spending quadruple that just to finally get the yellow tier to appear in your character's BW after grinding through thousands of BP's worth of items/perks you'll never use.
Honestly, I've been grinding to level up my Onryo and 1.5M BP's later, I'm still yet to get the specific perk I want in her bloodweb (in this case, BBQ). It's kinda ridiculous. Also, I don't know whether it's bad look or to do with the algorithms, but I always end up with perks I don't want (Furtive Chase, Monstrous Shrine etc). 😂
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I'll tell you a phrase from one series, "easy victory, worse than defeat"
If everyone swings easily, everyone will quickly lose interest. We need another idea. Upgrading the character to the required levels and perks is a kind of challenge, a huge achievement to which you strive by playing more and more, the developers are interested in people playing more to get game currency for progress than if you play less in their game to get everything straightaway.
P.S. Player opinion with 18k+ hours in the game
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If you remove perk tiers then the number of times you would need to grab perks off of bloodwebs drops from 591 to 197 roughly (this is to get every perk at level 3 on one killer and one survivor) . They would need to add around triple the amount of playable characters currently in the game in order to reach that number again since every character comes with 3 perks. We get 4 killers and 4 survivors every year usually with a few exceptions (like RE chapter) but lets keep it to the average for now.
30 survivors and 27 killers at the moment and there would need to be 90 survivors and 81 killers roughly to reach the amount of the current grind we have in the game with 3 tiers for every single perk if every perk was just the perk with no tiers. Now how long at the current rate of content being added to the game do you think it would take to reach those numbers? Its at least 10 so actually I was being pretty generous by saying 10. This is why the Dev's reasoning does not add up, it would take way longer than the game probably has left alive for the game to catch up on the grind that we lose if perks tiers went away today.
I'm not opposed to the devs doing more than JUST getting rid of perk tiers, anything to reduce the unfun and insane grind this game has is great but they said no on the Q&A so I have no reason to believe that perk tier removal is being considered for whatever plans they have for the grind. I'm just pointing out how it makes absolutely no sense not to remove perk tiers.
On the second point, why do you think it would take a ton of time to remove tiers? I'm not saying it would take 5 minutes but unless you can give me specific details on how and why it would take so long to do this I see no reason why it couldn't be done by the end of this year.
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If the game immediately loses all playability just because you have all the perks, then it doesn't deserve to keep going. As someone who has 18k hours you should know really know better.
There should be a grind, its great to have things to aim for but the current grind is ridiculous, back when there were about 30 perks in the game it made sense but we have just under 200 perks in total now. The grind needs reducing and there are multiple ways of doing this but one that would help is the removal of perk tiers. They do not belong in the current state of the game.
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You're assuming that the grind is only now becoming an issue, when really it's been an issue on their radar for a while. The number of total perks doesn't need to rise to the current level for it to become worth handling, it only has to get back to the point that people noticed it in the first place which was probably a few years ago. The game is 6 years old, so if it took it 3 years to get to the point that the bloodweb started to become too much of a grind it's not out of the question that another 3-5 years worth of characters would bring it back to that state even after culling perks.
Also as to how long it would take, let's go with that 9 months to 1 year amount. That's a major development project. Why spend that much time and manpower on a relatively short term fix that might need to be repeated down the line when they can spend about the same amount of time on a longer term solution that doesn't need to be done again later? And I'm assuming it's more complicated then just literally deleting perks from a table. They'd want to also look at anything that touches perks, like how the bloodweb generates perks and the character menus involving perks and rift challenges that involve particular perks and so on to make sure they don't accidentally break something when they remove all those perks. I'm obviously not saying that's impossible to do or anything but it's clearly a lot more complicated than just changing numbers in a table.
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3-5 years wouldn't even be close as I just proved to you, even 5 years is a long time btw, so even by your own admission it would take a long time to get back to that level of grind and it would be a lot longer than 5 lol. By all means let them do even more to make it even better rather than just removing the tiers but you're just wrong if you can't understand why perk tiers need to go.
On your second point you've said nothing that changes what I already said, we've already established its more than just a short term fix, Again unless there's some specifics you can give you cannot prove that this is the gargantuan task you are making it out to be.
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You didn't actually prove anything like what you said. As I explained above, your assumption that the game would have to get back to the same total number of perks for it to become an issue again is faulty. It would only need to get to the level at which it initially became a problem in the first place which was a while ago.
And what exactly is it you expect me to "prove" with my explanation of why it's more complicated than just changing some tables? How about you "prove" it's as simple as you think it is?
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You're hanging onto this "it was a problem 3 years ago!" Like a lifeline because you can't actually come up with anything concrete to go against the evidence that shows how long it would take to reach this level of grind again. Again by your admission you gave 5 years as a figure which is still a long time, even with your minimal 3 years that's a lot of time for them to continue working on the grind issues once they remove tiers. I've already proven how long it'd take btw and its much longer than you're claiming but even if your claims were right my point still stands.
Nothing you've said changes the fact that BHVR's explanation makes no sense. You've still not given any good reason why removing perk tiers is some gargantuan task. As I said it's not a simple task but it's not like reworking the entire game from the ground up.
Its worth investing time into because it would absoloutely help the grind issues, should they just get rid of perk tiers and call it a day? No they shouldn't. There are other issues to look at buy this is one that they should absoloutely do.
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Here is my perk tier removal analysis video:
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Thanks for sharing, I think that does a good job of explaining the perk tier issue.
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*double post my bad*
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I gave multiple reasons why removing all the perks is a large development project, you’re just ignoring them the same way you’re ignoring the reason I said your 10 year estimate is too large.
Also your saying “there are other issues to look at but this is one they should do” is falsely implying they’re doing nothing about the grind. But we already know they’re working on a major revamp of the bloodweb system specifically to reduce the grind which would already deal with the whole reason to get rid of perk tiers in the first place, assuming they aren’t already planning to do it as part of that revamp in the first place.
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- Your estimate of the time it takes for the grind to be a problem is incorrectly assuming that it needs to reach the same total number of perks we currently have. But in reality grind has been a problem for a long time already so it would only need to reach the point at which it initially became a problem which was probably about 3 or 4 years ago, maybe even earlier. So that 10 year estimate is too large, it’s probably closer to an additional 3, maybe even sooner. (It could even hypothetically still be perceived a problem immediately at only one perk per character depending on how tolerant someone is of grinding out 50 perks in the web every new chapter.)
- Your estimate of 1 dev taking four weeks is probably an underestimate because you’re ignoring a lot of testing that would need to take place and how interconnected a lot of systems are to the perks. It’s not a small project.
- Finally they’re already working on an alternative larger revamp of the system now that presumably makes the reason for removing perk tiers as a sole solution moot. Why spend months removing perk tiers when they can just finish the bloodweb revamp already in the works and have a better, longer term solution that deals with the issue in a hopefully more elegant way? Not to mention they never said the perk tiers aren’t being looked at as part of the larger revamp.
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I guess you did not watch my video, or if yes, then you didn't understand it.
- My grind estimate/formula takes into account that there are more perks as new killers are added. That's causing the quadratic grind increase.
- I am nowhere saying anything about 10 years. I am saying that we would be back at the same levels of grind after 5 years.
- time to fix: it depends how they fix it. Internally they could still have 3 tiers, but in the bloodweb players would immediately buy it on tier 3. It doesn't need that much testing, devs are not altering any game mechanics.
- already working on it, is something similar to Soon™. Maybe it just means that they have a rough idea, or they already spent 2 hours working on it, but now they need to work on the next DLC. They did not provide any time estimate, so it can be easily "next year". And as I mentioned removing perk tiers is definitely a lot simpler than coming up with some total rework. And if they remove perk tiers they will have 2-3 years to come up with their great awesome rework before the grind reaches again the current unbearable level
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You've given nothing to prove it's some huge project. I told you unless you can actually prove it then I see no reason why this isn't achievable in a sensible time frame. You're stanning so hard for BHVR you're just ignoring all the evidence people have given while providing nothing to back up what you're saying. You are just wrong.
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Obviously I watched your video because I commented on specifics from it. You just didn’t apparently understand my response to it when I said you were incorrectly assuming that the grind only becomes an issue when it reaches “current levels” or why I think you’re underestimating the time involved. Plus I think you’re underestimating the value of doing a broader approach in lieu of just a bandaid fix.
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I’m done arguing with you, you’re simply ignoring things I said because they don’t align with your faulty assumptions about long it would take to remove all the perk tiers, how long it would take for grind to be an issue (or even possibly still be an issue even if all the perk tiers were removed!) and are underestimating the value of doing a broader approach versus a bandaid fix.
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You're the one with faulty assumptions, you've been given plenty of reasons and evidence in favour of removing perk tiers and you simply refuse to accept it. You can only mention some vague soonTM fix we have no details about claiming it'd be better when you know NOTHING about this plan they have. It could be worse for all you know! Meanwhile it's proven removing perk tiers would be good for the game without needing to rework the whole system and would not become an issue for a minimum of 5 years.
Its not a bandaid fix, perk tiers have no reason to be around anymore. bhvr should remove them. That's what I think.
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