Gen Speeds Need To Be Looked At
Before looking at camping, tunneling, slugging, or anything else; Gen speeds should be the priority. Think about it:
In the first chase, 99% of the time, 2-3 gens can pop. Now let's assume that 1 chase led to 1 hook:
- That's at worst 2/6 (counting opening the gates) to at best 3/6 (1/3 to 1/2) of the Survivor's objective done.
- It's, AT BEST, 1/4 of the Killer's objective done. At absolute 'hook everyone once' BEST, the Killer JUST BARELY keeps up with a Survivor's AT WORST scenario.
Let me repeat that:
AT BEST, the Killer gets 1/4 of his objective and the Survivor gets, AT WORSE, 1/3rd of theirs.
But more commonly: The Killer has to hook everyone AT LEAST twice, leading it to be 1/8th of his objective. And the Survivors pop 3 gens, leading it to being ONE HALF of their objective.
You wonder why Killers camp? It's because their BEST CASE SCENARIO JUST BARELY keeps up with a Survivor's WORST CASE SCENARIO, and falls behind more often than not.
Imagine that time crunch out the gate: 1 hook (out of 4, minimum), and 2 or 3 generators pop thanks to SWFs, toolkits, perks...
NOW you know why Killers camp and tunnel and slug; they have such a time deficit to make up not 80 seconds into the match. They NEED to get a kill ASAP. Not spread hooks around and make Survivors feel good. Not 'play fair'.
If they want to win, and winning is the expected outcome for EITHER SIDE; they have to 'sweat' to make up for the fact that power creep has rendered gen speeds lightspeed, and the devs have not done ANYTHING about it.
Comments
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I've always been in support of a second Survivor objective.
Few people enjoy sitting on gens and Killers don't enjoy seeing gens pop quickly.
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Honestly, before all the massive power creep that obliterated the hide & seek aspect; Survivors needing to find parts to fix gens would have been amazing.
But that's a pipe dream in the current game.
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Map design? Sure. Gen speeds? Absolutely not.
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In the first chase, 99% of the time, 2-3 gens can pop. Now let's assume that 1 chase led to 1 hook:
That's at worst 2/6 (counting opening the gates) to at best 3/6 (1/3 to 1/2) of the Survivor's objective done.
It's, AT BEST, 1/4 of the Killer's objective done. At absolute 'hook everyone once' BEST, the Killer JUST BARELY keeps up with a Survivor's AT WORST scenario.
Gens are not equal, the first two gens are not the same in terms of escaping as the last two gens. Saying "The survivors are over 1/2 way out!" after 2-3 gens are done completely ignores the fact that the last two gens are MUCH easier to defend as the killer than the first two gens. In fact typically about half the match or more takes place when 1-2 gens are left to do, and most 3-4 kill matches end with only one or no gens left.
On top of which, the game is intentionally designed so that, if all the players are playing equally well, the most common results are supposed to be 1-3 kills, meaning someone typically dies and someone typically escape most matches. So expecting the doors to be closed in half your matches is an unreasonable expectation under that design goal - the doors are supposed to open most of the time assuming the survivors played well.
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The last two gens usually take less time if you ever commit to a chase thanks to the time reduction from 80-47 seconds with 2 survivors.
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If you take 15 seconds to find a Survivor, 10 seconds to get a hit, 30 seconds to down, another 10 to hook and then another 10 to get to a gen, that's literally 2.99 gens popping.
It doesn't matter if you down quickly. Even an absurdly short chase of 30 seconds will still cost you a gen.
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Also, Lethal Pursuer instantaneously shows you every survivor’s location before they even touch a gen, and you can get to one of them of your choice in less than 7 seconds; Win the chase in less than 1min, hook em, and Resonance activates.
I agree, it isn’t about gen speeds at all.
LP, DL and Reso are plenty; it’s all about winning the 1st chase and getting that 1st hook as fast as possible.
Corrupt is effective early on, and my personal fav, the underrated Surge/Jolt is sneakily helpful.
Success greatly depends on how ppl receive criticism; I never needed anyone to tell me to “git gud,” I needed someone to teach me how to play better, and since I was willing to listen and learn, my game improved.
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Sorry, you just sound like those people who say, "I 4K at 5 gens with no slowdown using Trapper, you're just bad lol"
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Sadly, with the release of Racoon map with Plaything + Pentimento. Its impossible for survivor to win in that match, not mention if there is 2nd objective.
I dont think 2nd objective will ever come. The best I can hope that Hex perks get buffed to be a true time buying like Plaything, not Ruin spawn on a hill.
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And they're also easier to defend because typically there is one survivor down or on hook, one being chased, and one going for a save or heal leaving only one to do the gens, not two. Not to mention if one of the survivors is dead by the time the survivors are on the last gen. As well as there often being less ground for the killer to cover to defend the gens at that point, especially if they've managed to build toward a 3-4 gen ending.
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This isn't really gen speeds. It's the maps.
Some maps have such a ridiculous gen spread that if survivors split up smartly to start and know how to run you, you're losing 3 gens by the time you've gotten a hook. Add in crazy pallet availability and a lot of 'freebie' safe gens and that's where you get the occasional 'okay, how the hell could I have won that?' games. Eyrie, MD, Cowshed, Badham etc. can all feel like this.
On the other hand, Midwich, RPD, DDS and a few others have legitimately cruel gen setups sometimes.
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Which is why slugging a survivor to immediately chase someone else for a second down rather than immediately hooking can be effective. You shave off that 10 second carry time to get into that next chase faster which pressures another person off the gen 10 seconds faster, plus also indirectly pressures a third survivor to go heal the slugged one. Being in that situation gives you a lot more time to collect the hook at that point.
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Of course, you take a bet that they don't have UB or CoH to remove your pressure instantly.
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I mean, that's also ignoring everything in the Killer's favor to slow down the game.
You have a passive slowdown. When you get that first hook, someone has to get off of gens to come save. The more gens get done, as long as you keep an eye on your gen spread, the smaller the area you actually have to patrol. Depending on how many resources were used in that first chase, that area where you got the chase and the down might be a deadzone now. A lot of Killers can snowball pressure even further as well, in cases like Twins, Oni, etc. There are a lot of Killer perks to help with gen-regression, including things like Scourge Hooks, Pop, Surge- just to name a few. You can also add things like Tinkerer on Mobility Killers, as if they get around the map fast enough, they can contest those same gens. Disrupting gens with things like Discordance means you're interrupting multiple people at once.
Imho the issue isn't gen speed rn. It's just the way many maps are set up, the fact that the game can come down to who runs stronger perks.
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What point is there defending gens if you can never chase a survivor and down them? you will always lose the attrition war assuming the survivors are not awful.
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No, you're just 'entitled' for wanting time to chase survivors and complete your objective. You are there for the survivors' entertainment while they win.
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Are you sure?
You make it sound so easy.
Just find a survivor in 10 seconds, down them in another few and get a hook.
Sometimes that does work. Most of the time it doesnt.
I mean sure it does work very well if you play against people who have like 20 hours in the game but if you face veteran swf groups.....good luck.
Another if not the biggest problem are the maps and their RNG. The Game is a very good example. All you need is one survivor keeping the killer busy by shifting away and dropping all the pallets. There are almost 30 pallets on that map and many god loops.
You might say, well just switch target. But that doesnt matter. If you play against the sweatlord groups all of them can prolong chases and you simply cant do anything about it with "skill".
The only option you have is to play Nurse, then you can ignore almost all pallets and negate some of the mentioned problems.
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It's not for the sake of being cynical. I am an artist, the forums are my canvas, and through it I am trying to express my distaste for the state of the game.
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I really hope they figure something out. They kept saying Boons were a second objective....but its like...Totems were already in the game as something that Survivors could always mess with....so... Boons were just a different method of Survivors "messing with Totems".... I just can't agree with that Boons are a secondary objective BS.... If they're another objective for anyone, its the Killer.... And the Killer really didn't need ANOTHER objective........... :/
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The dev's saw the reaction to pinheads cube as a second objective. I doubt they will ever put something into the game that doesn't grant some huge bonus to survivors for doing it over a gen in fear of the backlash.
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And I fear......that you are correct.... :/
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I am so passionate about the game, that's why I do hate what the game's become! But if we just give up and leave, nothing changes!
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Wrong!
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There are plenty of perks that can counter the so called "gen rush"
I think the disbalance comes from the scenario that a killer game can be decided in the first chase.
High mobility killers and survivor mistakes can swing this back but you need a serious snowball moment to recover from a bad 1st chase against efficient survivors who focus on gens.
I agree making gen times longer isn't really a solution, mobility and chase ending potential are.
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That's an interesting statement, considering that the devs want to bring solos to SWF levels.
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The thing is that when I try to talk serious, nobody listens. And others have no qualms about being sarcastic or rude, and they get no pushback, so I figured I'd give that a try every now and then. I want what's best for the game, but you being condescending to someone who cares this much about the game isn't helping.
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I kinda love how our community reacts to complains about gen speed.
Survivors complete between 40% and 60% of their objective, by the time the killer completed 8% of his.
To put this into perspective, this is like 2 survivors dead/disconnected, when you completed half a gen. Oh and the people that say: "those first 3 gens don't matter". Yeah, neither did those 2 dead survivors. They obviously were bad, so now its time to shine for the other 2.
No survivor would continue to play normal. Yet its somehow expected that killers play like this on a regular basis.
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It's 2022, You have an array of perk options now that gen speeds is not an issue. I don't know how much slower gens need to be. They would have to literally nerf every single slow down perk that exists if you want them to nerf the gen speeds at base.
I also think it's important to understand WHY people complain about Camping. No It is not the kind of camping that is tactical and where it is warranted that people wonder about, it is this one:
Explain that one when you complain about why 2-3 gens popping within the first chase.
If you are losing 2-3 gens within the first chase 99% of the time, you have really bad map RNG or You are just terrible in terms of mind-games and being able to leave that survivor alone or both. This is not everyone's experience and certainly not mine.
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Never claimed to be affiliated.
But I watch dev streams. Where the devs stated that SWF has a 15% higher escape rate and that they're looking into ways to bring solos to SWF levels.
Kinda ironic how you're condescending in the same post in which you claim you're not.
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That's sums it up neatly.
Slowing down the speed of a gen is not an acceptable solution. It's already very boring as it is.
It seems they already have tried to give another objective with the boons. (Yes, they gave more work to the killer instead : whoops)
Changing the map sizes seems to be the next step but boons are also even more powerful on smaller maps.
I'm not sure there is an easy way out of this. (Make boons breakable, reduce map size?)
I wonder : most killers with experience have dealt with this for a while now. If the pressure is removed, it may end up being a bloodbath.
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Yes, you are. I said one thing, and here you come out of nowhere with your typical "cheer up, it's just a video game", like that has solved anything. Why should I re-read the entire thread? Gens speed is broken, plain and simple, and there are a great many people refusing to accept that. So why would I try to talk them out of it with logic, and say the same thing that 10 other people will, when I can exercise a little bit of sarcasm and portray to people how far out this discussion is? It shouldn't be controversial and it is. You are simply another participant in the gaslighting of yours truly.
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It would be a bloodbath if gens were actually slowed via any means.
That's why any changes to camping and tunneling MUST come with the update that slows the game down. They can't come before, else Killers will be in an even worse spot and they most certainly cannot come after due to the aforementioned bloodbath.
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I don't see how they can make something meaningful against tunneling or camping without severely curtailing the option of the killer player. I don't think that would be good either.
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I feel like BHVR have been attempting to push survivors away from gens lately though. We got Pinhead with his cube objective, Artist who can drive survivors off gens from across the map, Onryo with her video tape objective (I would not be surprised if they buff her condemned soon). Perks lately like SH:PR, CoB, Merciless Storm, and the DMS buff, etc, all designed to drive survivors off gens. I do feel like they're trying.
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It's a false dichotomy, these two aren't the only choices.
But you are essentially saying that gen speed isn't broken against bad players who have no map awareness and no game sense. In the big picture, they are irrelevant. That would leave the other option. Thankfully there are gradations, but not that different in the end.
Gen speed is an issue whenever survivors, in teams or not, plays gen jockeys in parallel with a side of gens before friends. It's only slightly worse when they are somewhat competent.
The one blessing here is that there are a lot of players who do not realize that doing gens in parallel is way more efficient. They still can do it "by chance" though.
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You are probably right about that.
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Yes, they are.
However, Pinhead is still pitifully weak, but I guess it was their first attempt.
Artist's long range abilities are pretty bad.
Onryo's Condemned, like you alluded to, is not very threatening.
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Get better.
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Gen speeds are fine. It's the Maps and Survivor spawns that are the problem imo
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The only thing that's abysmal about solo queue is, that there are so many teammates which suicide on first hook, because they lost a chase or didn't like the killer.
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They've been looked at, and there's no way to slow them down without handing free victories to anyone who chooses to camp and/or tunnel. They have to be this fast in order to not break the game further.
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I think a second objective is something they should look at but messing with gen speeds I need to disagree with.
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At higher mmr/decent swf's the only way you can win is to tunnel people out/slug. Wish they would nerf the gen speed somehow that would still be fun for all, but until then rip.
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Why is it always assumed that Killers take time to find the Survivors, etc. but at the same time, it is assumed that Survivors spawn on a Gen and start immediatly working on it? Often enough it is pretended that they do this on 3 separate Gens at the same time...
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There is definitely something wrong with how the games are essentially snowballing.
Seems now more than ever im encouraged to play scummy if I wanna maximize efficiency in a match.
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I think map size is the bigger issue
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Because map geometry dictates that Survivors usually (not always) spawn very close to gens.
If there is any travel time, it's less than 5 seconds. Now, Corrupt can add more time to that. Certain Killers can too, Pig's auto-traps for example.
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Yeah, but everytime I read that the Killer has to do this and that before getting a down, but apparently travel time (which can be quite a bit with Corrupt Intervention, depending which Gens are blocked and where the Survivor spawned) or simply Survivors not going on Gens right away (cleansing Totems, looting Chests, doing nothing...) are never mentioned.
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Well yeah, that's why corrupt is used so often, because it adds extra delay. Travel time without corrupt typically doesn't add up to much unless you end up hiding/taking a detour to avoid the killer. Although even with corrupt sometimes you still spawn on gens that aren't blocked.
If survivors are cleansing dull totems or looting chests then they're not being optimal.
That said, the baseline gen time of 80 seconds per gen is not the problem imo. Survivor spawns, map design, and toolboxes/prove thyself are.
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Even when they have those it still works because Unbreakable is once per game and CoH still takes them time to run off and heal which is time they aren’t on gens. Obviously you still need to be cognizant of CoH and take the boon out when you find it but otherwise the tactic does work.
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