General Discussions
General Discussions
I Honestly Don't Understand How CoH Ever Got Added
Developers: Hey! You know Killer Hexes? Those things where only 3 are at all worth the drawback?
Players: Yeah...
Developers: Why don't we give them to Survivors, make them infinitely reuseable, and make them even BETTER than Hexes!
Players: Wait, really? Why?
Developers: Yeah! And you know how healing literally negates a Killer's progress? And how medkits promote tunneling, which Killers get threats for? Why don't we make a Boon that does that 10x faster! In an area of effect! And can be reused forever with 0 cooldowns or drawbacks of any kind! Survivors can literally heal in the time it takes Killers to wipe their weapon after an attack! Or behind dropped pallets!
Killers will either have to tunnel, and get MORE threats, or spend time they don't have snuffing the totem! At which point, Survivors can just re-apply it, meaning removing it is literally a lose/lose for Killers!
Killer Players: 😔
Survivor Players: 🤩
Yes, this is a rant. Yes, I know it's being nerfed (again). Yes, the nerf is the wrong thing being looked at. It's not that it heals too fast (in spite of my snark); it's that it has 0 cool down, infinite uses, and removing it is basically like spitting into the wind; you're hurting yourself more than anything else.
I just hate this perk so much and literally no other perk in the history of DBD has made me want to stop playing more than this one..
Comments
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There are a LOT of things in this game that BHVR thinks are perfectly fine.
I'm still relatively certain that someone on the dev team has an insider bet on how far they can mess with the killers before it kills the game. But he/she is the only one in on the bet so they need to add stuff that angers killers greatly but they can't make it too obvious so they "nerf" the perks in ways that don't actually fix any of the actual problems killers have it with (see also Boil Over, at least on a controller)
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Except for the fact that only 1 boon is good, and the rest are all horrible. They are a good idea, the only problem is that it was stupid to think that an infinite and fast medkit you can provide to your whole team would be good.
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The rest are good, if niche. They are exactly what boons should be, power-wise. (Though all boons should have limited use or placings)
The problem is that CoH over-shadows them so much that they look terrible compared to the free healthcare that is CoH.
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Because they have to invent three surv perks every three month. I think we already have enough or even to much.
You can bet there is other - maybe worse - stuff coming in the future.
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Obligatory reminder that boons aren't hexes and shouldn't be directly compared to them.
Beyond that, though, I do agree that CoH was pretty obviously overpowered from the get-go, even without considering the oversight on the PTB that let them stack if two overlapped. The idea of a "healing station" makes sense at first blush, but considering the direction they went with boons otherwise, it really obviously ends up chafing with the design and intent of the mechanic- the other three require the killer nearby too, but CoH doesn't. The other three have balanced (if frankly underpowered) effects to compensate for the continual-slowdown durability, but CoH doesn't. The other three synergise well enough with one another that a survivor could risk stacking most of their perks on one snuffable totem.... but CoH doesn't.
That said, when it comes to nerfing it, while I do think more should be done with the perk itself (more restrictions specifically on self-heal would be a good place to look) I also want there to be a cap (hard or soft) on heal speeds in general. Part of the problem with CoH is how aggressively it stacks with other sources of healing speed, that should be looked at imo.
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In general i don't see why any boon could be used Infinit, it's basically low risk high reward.
Also shadow step i don't really understand, yes it's not as strong as CoH but it can still nullify some killers powers.
Spirit doesn't see scratch marks or auras.
And if the survivor is using IW which is almost standard, she's blind as well as deaf.
As scratch mirror Myers which is already slow and has to surprise them by sneaking, can't see any auras when using his power.
There should imo be some downsides on boons like the amount of usage a boon can be placed.
Take some hexes for example.
Devour, you need the be a x amount of distance from the hook.
Ruin, you need to push of the survivors from the gens.
NOED (everyone's favorite) you need them to complete all gens or close the hatch.
Lullaby, you need to hook at 3 or 4 survivors to actually get a benefit from it.
That's only a few where the killer is required to do something to get use out of it.
However CoH for example, once injured and the killer leaves you you can heal as much as you want.
Not really logical if you ask me.
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The problem at this point is, if you just nerf COH to the point where it's no longer a problem, that would probably mean nerfing it into something completely useless, meaning boons as a whole will just die because they won't be worth bringing.
I do not think there is a solution to boon totems that doesn't involve changes to the base mechanics, because as it is now they're either going to be overpowered or not be worth a survivor's time or perk slot despite being an unlimited resource.
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Boons were a mistake from the start. But remember how they boasted in the QnA that they're too good to make OP perks anymore, they think it's fine LMAO
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That is why it shouldn't have been put into live and first done some very good testing before adding it.
The problem with BHVR and adding/buffing/nerfing things is that they either only do it slightly and barely make a difference, or over do it and making it a problem.
But it's most of the time that they over do it unfortunately
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I never understood this. COH is good yeah, but so is shadowstep.
As far as exponential, and dark theory they're both very niche but not horrible by any means.
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CoH made solo queue so much more bearable it isn't funny.
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Even if CoH would not exist, nobody would run any of the other Boons (except to get Achievements). They are all bad and got worse overtime. with the worst being Dark Theory, which cannot even be buffed (unless they give it a second effect).
The reason why CoH is strong is because it is Healing (IMO the only good Survivor Perks are those who are second-chance Perks or those which speed up (Side-)Objectives). And, because it was a Survivor-only Chapter. But CoH will slowly be brought down to the Level of the other Boon, meaning, you wont see them.
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Absolutely agreed. I never felt like it was well thought out from the start.
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The upcoming nerf will kick CoH in the nuts. Setting up a Boon and then healing will take longer than using Self-Care, which means snuffing the Boon is now worth it
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The problem is that it’s still free healing that doesn’t require a perk slot for 3/4 of the survivor team for the rest of the match unless the killer 1) happens to find the totem and 2) takes time to go snuff it out, which sometimes takes a ton of time on maps with multiple levels (multi-level effectiveness of boons is broken AF).
The upcoming nerf does nothing to address the fact that it’s a free perk for most of the team and it’s a secondary objective for killers that didn’t exist in the game prior to boons being introduced.
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Shadowstep is definitely good but as someone that tracks by footsteps a lot, it just never really hurts me and it is still fairly niche. I do use it the most out of all the boons for sure though, but its use is mainly for getting away from a gen without being seen when the killer is approaching
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I see people running both coh and shadow step just about equally lately.
Weirdly enough I've seen more BO than Coh.
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It probably got added the same way old MoM and old Legion were added.
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Not horrible then like you previously stated.
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well compared to an infinite medkit for the entire team, it is still fairly niche and during some matches it is just not worth wasting your time for a funny haha no scratchmark area
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If i remember the numbers correctly, CoH is still faster than self care.
Also CoH is still an faster heal when you're healing someone and a free self heal for all other survivors.
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Just add stuff without properly testing it.
Always works the best 😂
At least by BHVR logic
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Okay, but compared to CoH pretty much everything except DH or DS is niche
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Booning + healing is already longer than self care now, but just barely.
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exactly, not arguing that lol CoH is downright stupid
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Assuming you actually put your Boon in an intelligent spot, you're still almost always going to get mega value even with the newest nerf.
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You know these are the same devs that had seen the giddeon tilted towards killer winning so they added a bunch of god pallets... that about sums them up
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Yeah basically.
I've been refusing to bring the perk as survivor, but I tried it again on the PTB just to make sure it was still busted. Confirmed as much pretty quickly.
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CoH still has and will continue to have issues, but I honestly can't expect the devs to actually delete the Perk, which would be the best way to balance it
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Honestly with how often I'm sent to gideons or badham I don't focus on boons either way.
It's a waste of time to snuff them unless im already on top of it but I don't think anyone hunts them down. So it's a gimme in some cases.
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its amazing they managed to create one thing to kill the game, usually its like 4 of 5 things and then players start to leave
but in our case it was one thing
kinda impressive tbh
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Because it wouldn’t affect certain killers but butcher others. Example Wraith and Ghostface lose one of their most viable strats hit and run from COH and it eats them alive. But why would a Hillbilly or Bubba care about COH? Or other killers who can end a chase quick. COH does little to some but too much to others.
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I don't see nor do i expect them to delete the perk.
What they can do is for example make it a 1 time use only like a hex, once snuffed the totem breaks and the survivor loses a perk just like the killer loses his hex.
Or put on a timer before blessing again after it being snuffed, also no blessing a new dull totem while you already have a boon totem placed.
Or make it a token system boon.
X amount heals before the boon disappears and no re-blessing again after the tokens are gone.
Just a few things the could do to make it a bit more bearable imo
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I found a somewhat decent counter to CoH... Behavior should add more Perks/ Killer add-ons that inflict "Broken." It seems to work well when I play Bubba because they know better than to try standing anywhere near me at that point. For anyone that doesn't know, "Broken" prevents the survivor(s) from healing for a set amount of time.
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Just wait for the inevitable repair speed Boon. You know it's going to happen. We have a healing Boon, an aura Boon, a sprint Boon, and an anti slugging Boon. Repair speed Boon is most definitely coming and it'll probably be 6 months before that gets adjusted as well.
The only stacking Boons should do is team actions. So no stacking with perks or items. But they still don't seem to think that's the way to go, so I don't know.
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Boil over is useless unless you use it with the ash perk and killer leaves you on the ground. Circle of healing is strong perk but I think it's pretty fine now but maybe still needs small nerf
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So your grief is against boons, not only CoH.
Makes sense, yes. I despise their sound even more than three gens popping in parallel.
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Something that scares me from the first time the brought in the first boons, thought about a repair boon and like you i think it will be a matter of time before that is released.
Big chance that if it is really put in the game, that it will hold me off indefinitely of returning back to DBD
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To sell whats her face
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People that are much more invested in the CoH discussion then me have put it like this, every other boon requires the killer to be chasing someone near the boon to be effective, and therefore the survivor running the boon has a incentive to think about where a killer might go often to get as much as much value from it as possible, high risk, high reward
However, CoH is the opposite, you want it to be somewhere very far away from the killer, and now the killer has to waste time getting to that location and snuffing it, otherwise the survivors will just run back to the boon and heal, very low risk, insanely high reward
IMO CoH should either remove the healing boost and become a AoE self care, OR rework it to keep in line with the other boons, where you’re incentivised to put it somewhere where a killer will be chasing somebody
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because every other survivor meta perk is literary broken or very very good
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Remember old undying and the complaints of the survivors having to cleanse multiple totems... Then behavior nerf it? And then give UNLIMITED totems to survivors. But it's OK just snuff it.... Wasn't OK to just cleanse totems for them though
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And the same is for killer meta perks. Like you can't just ignore all of the strong options killers can bring as well. The only truly "broken" options for survivors, as in unfair, are dead hard and CoH. Even then, killer definitely has just as strong of options that they can bring, not counting also using those insane combos on the top tier killers.
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Since hexes are designed around being broken permanently and boons are designed specifically not to be, yes, that is actually okay and isn't hypocritical or an instance of double standards.
For starters, when old Undying made survivors cleanse multiple totems, the effects of the associated hex were still plaguing them. When a killer snuffs a boon, the effects are disabled until it's set back up again, which leads into the idea of continual slowdown that boons are designed around.
It's very important to remember that boons and hexes are not directly comparable, at all. They're different mechanics for different purposes with different design and different requirements for balance.
Post edited by jesterkind on3 -
Giving 3 other survivors a 5th perk …. What a great idea.
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which leads into the idea of continual slowdown that boons are designed around.
Except CoH returns so much time in heal-speed (and being a 5th perk) that it is not a slowdown to have to place it again.
Also keep in mind that Survivors dictate how long a game goes on for; the faster they can do gens, the shorter the game. And if the Killer has to go snuff a boon because it's giving Survivors a time bonus to all heals, then that Killer is not chasing someone or pressuring gens.
ALSO keep in mind; 1 Survivor can boon while 3 do gens, thereby still doing their objective while Booning. Whereas, as I said above; a Kilelr snuffing a totem is NOT chasing Survivors or pressuring gens.
All that together means that it's literally in a Survivor's best interest to boon, while a Killer is screwed if they snuff (not pressuring gens) or don't snuff (allow Survivors to make up lost time via faster heals).
That is why Circle of Healing is broken to the point that I can't think the devs who added it have ANY idea how the game plays. It's clearly broken in every aspect when you point out how it interacts with the game. It's a lose/lose for Killers, with 0 drawbacks for using it for Survivors.
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Yep- exactly.
CoH is broken because it shatters the intended purpose of boons, breaks the established rules that the other three have as standard, and provides far, far too much value for the downsides that it has. Its upcoming nerf will alleviate that a little, but I still think it needs a little work.
This reads like you're disagreeing with me, so just to be abundantly clear - I was talking about boons in that message, not Circle of Healing specifically.
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The thing is, if COH is nerfed to the point where it's no longer a net time gain, then survivors will mostly just stop using boons altogether, because the rest of the perks aren't really worth it by themselves generally speaking. Shadow step can work sometimes but the other two are just bad.
While I get what you're saying about boons not being the same as hexes, I would still argue the boon system is extremely poorly designed regardless. COH simply is the biggest offender because it's by far the most powerful boon perk. Nerfing it is just solving one smaller component of an overall bigger issue that can't be solved by only adjusting COH.
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Well, the devs have shown they don't understand how to fix it, because they don't understand WHY it's broken.
- Give it charges. Once <x> amount of healing is done in it; it snuffs on it's own.
- Give it limited uses; once that Survivor has Booned with CoH <x> amount of times; CoH no longer activates when Booning.
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Isn't there merit to the idea that the perks should all follow the same rules, though?
Certainly, I'm sympathetic to the idea that maybe CoH must necessarily break that tradition, but I also think it's fair for any dev team to hesitate before implementing that kind of exception.
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