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A "No Exhaustion perk weekend"
We had a no Bloodlust weekend in the past to test the impact of Bloodlust on loops. So why don't you do a weekend where all Exhaustion perks are disabled or partially disabled to see what impact they have on the game?
Now some of you might say "you are a whiny killer main who is outplayed by DH all the time" or "that Exhaustion perks are fine"...
But: I am not a killer main. I play mostly survivor nowadays (thank you MMR...) but I still have a combined knowledge of almost 4.8k hrs in this game. Most Exhaustion perks ARE FINE, but the strongest ones (DH+SB) are what I am most interested in.
This is what I would do:
1.day: no Exhaustion perks at all
2.day: no DH and SB
I would also be tinterested in a "No meta weekend" where the current meta (best 5 perks) is blocked on both sides. So no DS, DH, BT, UB, SB on survivor and no Ruin, PGTW, DMS, PR, BBQ/Tinkerer on killer.
Comments
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Hmmm i like it plus its only for a weekend
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Might as well call it a killer lobby simulator weekend.
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The problem with this, is that the survivor meta exists for a reason. Let's say you disabled BT/DS/unbreakable. What would happen is mass camping, tunnelling and slugging. Without the fear of these things, killers will increase in this playstyle. Even DH, if you disabled that killer would get downs, significantly faster.
It goes the same way. If you disabled gen slowdown perks for killers, the survivors will do generators way to fast for them to handle. Even without DH, killers will not be able to keep up, its not possible. Everybody complains about meta, but meta exists for a reason, and if you disable it, you risking breaking the foundation of the game.
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An "No Exhaustion Weekend" sounds interesting, but the "No Meta" test is just an invitation for killers to tunnel and camp with no repercussions. Killers have plenty of other slowdown perks (tho they're not as effective), but survivors don't have any other way to counter tunneling and camping.
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The only reason they did a no bloodlust weekend is because it's a basegame mechanic, one that is present in every single match and behaves the same in all of them.
Exhaustion perks are... well, perks. And there's different ones that work in different ways. They can already just look up stats from players with exhaustion perks vs players without them, or players with DH vs players with SB or any other comparison - they already have that data.
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For the 15th time, they do not need to disable perks as a whole because they have matches without those perks. Bloodlust was a different story entirely since it's a mechanic present in every trial inherently.
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They tinkered with that idea years ago and probed for interest. It was meant as an experiment for a selected pool of players, like a sort of closed beta. I can't remember if it ever come to fruition. However, it's not hard to predict how it would go/went.
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The standard killer ‘strategies’ (camping, tunneling, and slugging) don’t require any perks to employ. Perks simply enhance it for them. Survivors have to run perks to counter these (in any meaningful way anyways). Sounds like a hot mess I want no part of.
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They are clear game design errors. These strategies only have real counterplay in trios/squads.
SoloQ just praying for someone else to bring BT, unbreakable, DS if the killer plays this way.
My opinion: Instead of it being a week without exhaustion perks, it could be a week without real second chance perks (Noed, Lithe, SB, Overcome, DH, etc)
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I get why killers need to slug for pressure sometimes, but it’s baffling they’ve made no base game changes to camping or tunneling. The last change was adding 15 seconds to each hook stage years ago.
You don’t consider anti-camp, tunnel, or slug perks to be second chance perks?
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yes, i don't consider anti-camp, tunnel, or slug perks "second chance perks" because like I said, these strategies only have real counterplay in Trios/Squads if the killer focuses on playing that way from the beginning of the game ( and depending on the killer, more or less effectively). These perks are more like band-aids to cover game design mistakes
It's not like I don't have scapes without using BT, DS, or unbreakable, but clearly when I don't use them and end up entering a match in SoloQ that the killer plays like that, i already know the game is lost (and praying to get the scape through the hatch, with good luck or hope the other allies have brought these perks)
Post edited by randonly on0 -
I want to get a DH killswitch weekend for sure.
People are talking like survivors will hate it.
And they might... for, like, 4 matches.
But, in reality, they're going to find that they go against much fairer survivors in the long run.
The vast, vast, VAST majority of players popping their feet into the deep end of MMR are NOT ready - they're just boosted by DH and spoiled by BT and other meta perks.
Once they don't have DH to boost them into the stratosphere - they will likely fall back into the average pool where they're better fitted for the matchups.
I'm honest to goodness sick of getting baby survivors in my lobby, then see them press E to not die at the last moment. It's like seeing a kid in a car with a crayola crayon drivers license. Like, oh - buddy - that worked for you back home... but that doesn't fly out here.
Killswitching DH for 3 days will probably be one of the healthiest things this game will ever see. Survivors will loop safer, play smarter, and the boosted kids that seep up to the big games with bad plays and bandaid perks will slowly trickle back down to their proper MMR ranks.
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For myself, I would still play since I don't use Exhaustion perks (I never really have). And for the no meta weekend: I would use maybe something like WGLF or We'll make it instead of my DS. The other 3 perks are strong but not meta. If IW would be turned off, I would maybe switch my main (Jeff) for that time or use something like Off the Record.
This is the intention. To see what the game would look like without certain perks. So that certain mechanics can be adjusted and changed properly. The survivor meta is so old and unchanging because these are the best perks by far. There is no reason to use Alert (a good perk) over DS or DH. For killer it's similar, just the meta is not so far away from the rest of the perks like for survivor.
This would be the time for the Devs to think about other anti-tunneling etc mechanics or penalties. I'm completely fine with tunneling or camping btw if it is needed (in the EGC for example).
That would be another option.
Try to find a high end MMR match without these....
This is what I also see quite often when I play killer. People who make dumb plays and press E to get to safety....
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The point is we know what would happen without these perks. Killers camp and tunnel more. Games become massively unbalanced because the survivor meta is very strong against weaker killers, but borderline mandatory against stronger ones. Survivors have been asking for changing how hooking survivors work to discourage camping for years, and it has not been changed. A lot of things in DBD exist, for certain reasons, and the game breaks without them.
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Well.... then it would be time to change them.
A first step wouls be to nerf the meta.
For example (just brainstorming): DS deactivates when the EGC starts. DH is only usable 2 times. BT only works when the killer is near, UB loses the recovery boost (we have a boon for that) etc.
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Why is the solution always to nerf good perks, but never buff bad perks? Also, Exponential is garbage. You’re gonna spend 14 seconds or more to bless a totem, to get recovery speed and pickup ability in a small area… that can be snuffed? Come on, you know you never see this perk in your trials for a reason. Even less do you see it ever have any value.
With the killer roster we have today, you know BT only being radius-activated is a big issue. That’s the whole reason it was changed to always activate.. at the cost of a shorter duration too. Which many killers know to just wait out and tunnel through anyways.
Until we get base kit help for camping and tunneling, there ought to definitely be no further nerfs to the survivor meta.
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Depends on the perk, and depends on the reason.
DS activates at endgame. Why, because the killer has to camp? So now I have to run a perk, exclusively to avoid be tunnelled, and its still may not even activate, even if I am directly tunnelled?
DH only has 2 uses? How about ruin only applies to one generator? Nerfing a perk into obscurity is terrible game design.
Here is the real issue with DBD. The design of killers are terrible. The vary massively in power. DH is overpowered? Well it depends. Are we talking about going against a trapper with sloppy, brutal strength, spies form the shadows and shadowborn? Then yes it is overpowered. Are we talking about a Nurse with corupt, ruin, dead man's switch and pain resonance? Not at all. The strength of killer's perks and powers vary between broken, and useless and as a result the survivor perks need to exist, so there is a reasonable way to beat a meta Nurse. The problem is when they take that same build and go up against said trapper. You can't change gen speeds, you can't change perks. The only thing you can change is player's attitudes, and unfortunately everybody is so suck they refuse to change.
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A metric ton of perks should be buffed - but all within balance.
Boons, for example, need to be reworked. Their current system of infinite usage means they are in a difficult spot. They, frankly, are not allowed to be made useful - for any menial usage will overlap with the ubiquitous nature that boons allow and break the game, as seen with CoH even at 0.75 healing speed.
ALL perks need a once-over, in my book.
But, for now, kill-switching DH would be awesome
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They don't need to turn off exhaustion perks in order to collect data on the game when they aren't used as they can parse the data they are collecting already for games where they weren't used by every survivor in said game and get the same information. With Bloodlust it was a mechanic where you can only gain data from it being on until you turn it off and killers can't opt out of its use on a regular basis.
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Problem: Without Exhaustion Perks MOST SURVIVOR PLAYERS WILL DIE and MOST KILLER PLAYERS WILL CAMP AND TUNNEL HARD because MOST PLAYERS ARE NOT VERY GOOD AT THE GAME and because why not camp and tunnel? Killers don't have to play nice, they're bad characters, they're killers, anything that makes killing easy should be used, it's only logical. Same thing for survivors in Meta, if Meta is what helps survivors being safe then why not use the Meta?
Reality check, Survivors need Exhaustion perks and killers need anti-exhaustion and regression perks because the CONCEPT OF THE GAME IS VERY DAMN POOR.
You can't change the META without redesigning the whole game first so that the issues "solved" and then caused by the META aren't issues anymore and therefore the META stops existing.
For the Meta of the game to change Survivors need another way besides exhaustion perks to essentially survive. The reason it's a 4v1 is so that the "non power role" aka survivors have a chance to escape vs a single "power role". And it's why the Hatch exists aswell so that the final survivor, who might not be able to accomplish the team objective of fixing the generators to open the exit gates, can escape. Which feels awful for killers cause it's a freebie. IT'S A FAIL SAFE MECHANISM to ensure someone has a final chance and Survivors do abuse this freebie alot often times even hurting their teammates in the process cause they just sit and wait for it instead of playing as a team...
The game needs a serious rethink, that will never happen, killer feels OP for first time survivors cause those survivors don't have knowledge and have no defensive perks so it becomes easier for killer and survivor feels op for experienced players because experienced survivors have the knowledge have the time invested, have the perks, have the failsafes, such as hatch, such as 4v1, such as SWF and comms, map design, etc. These things exist to facilitate the entry level for survivor players which is the bigger pool of players but overtime if those players continue then the challenges don't increase for them, they just go through the motions while each killer is unique and has ways to be played wich forces killer players to constantly evolve and update their playstyle to whatever changes the system gets, the killer they are playing get, the map they are playing get. There's a world of difference between expectation and requirements for survivor and expectation and requirements for killers. It's a natural struggle of asymetrical games but BHVR has handled it very poorly despite the COMMERCIAL SUCCESS.
IT's why Dedicated servers and MMR don't work for DbD, those are competitive settings in a game meant to ease participation for one of the sides. The scales were unbalanced from the start so adding a Competitive side to the game only skewed the numbers even more. Then the numerous issues with content launches and just general tiredness of the stale state of the META makes people rethink their decision to play DbD. I can safely say i've only enjoyed DbD for the first month back in August 2018, after i realised the struggle of playing killer and the constant grind and realised all the bugs and issues, i've just came to the natural conclusion that i can't play the game as a "main game", it's way to frustrating to play, i feel like i'm constantly fighting issues outside of game Balance, then i have to fight game balance and deal with issues that make the game balance even worse... Currently i don't play i just keep up with things and i see that time after time nothing changes, nothing will change, cause the real changes that need to be made means that the game has to not be playable for a really long time and BHVR would lose even more players and money. SO it's a situation of either you endure or you play something else.
It's the same as Call of duty, you either play it or you play something else cause you're tired of Activison's BS and you're tired of the incompetent dev teams behind CoD.
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BT used to only activate in the killers TR. This made it ineffective against stealth killers.
Changing it to a static "within 30m of the killer" would have countered this, however this would be ineffective against teleporting killers.
However a system for limiting some more meta perks wouldn't be a bad idea.
Exhaustion was implemented to prevent you using multiple really strong chase perks back to back.
Well a similar system could be implemented for second chance perks. DS, Unbreakable, Deliverance. Using one of these perks gives a new shared status that prevents the use of self-same status perks. Basically meaning you won't be able to use DS, UB and Deliverance in the same game, so like Exhaustion perks, you won't want to bring them into a game together.
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About DS: I have lost count how many times I tanked a hit during EGC or did some weird ######### because I had DS and the killer had to deal with it (I had to deal with it as killer quite often too.). I don't know how many countless times I escaped because of DS. If it would deactivate after EGC starts, it would be solely a perk against unnecessary tunneling (e.g. At 4 gens left) and not hinder the Killer's ability to snowball in the end. Of course you could "eat" the DS earlier but I'm not the tunneling kind unless someone pisses me off or if I really need to.
DH: Ideally the killer will chase you 3 times. So having it available 2 times is OK. Just give it a cooldown instead of Exhaustion and you are fine. So you can't mindlessly press E every time the killer outplays you. This is the main issue I have with that perk. That you can be bad over and over again and get away with it.
Yes the power level of Killers is very different. And M1 killers will have a hard time independent of what you do. That's just how it is.
I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to but I always tried to be nice as killer and survivor. I always try to be fair as long as the other side behaves themselves. I don't intend to be fair against a toxic person. That would be a losing battle. I also always tried to stay away from the current meta: Kindred, Spine Chill, DS and IW is what I use 98% of matches. I tried to play without DS, but in soloq you get farmed without BT, the killer doesn't give a damn.... And as a Jeff Main I am quite dependent on IW (although I would enjoy a fairer rework for sure).
There was even a time when BT was single use only but protected the unhooker as well. I even thought of BT being a selfish perk so if you play soloq and you get farmed, you have a protection, but that a) doesn' t fit Bill's character at all and b) we've got DS for this.
I really like your idea. But only include 2nd chance perks (BT, DS, DH, UB and Deliverance). Other perks with similar effects (Soul Guard, Exponential, No Mither) have downsides or special requirements that make them less overwhelming. That would at least force the meta to change a bit.
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After 3 years of always using DH I now run with always no exhaustion perks, so I'd have no problems with a test. Also I'd say maybe 1 weekend of no DH is better, because all the other exhaustion perks are balanced imo.
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I have stopped using DH when the servers were implemented, but I rarely used it before because I realized that you are very greedy with loops and I didn't like that.
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I'm not sure BT and DH would work with it.
BT you use on other people, so does it inflict the recipient with the status, or you when the unhooked survivor is hit? Either way doesn't seem that fair.
Moving DH to this, and similarly with your earlier suggestion of changing DH to a cooldown instead of Exhaustion, would mean that you can use DH with other exhaustion perks. DH and Sprint Burst, DH and Balanced Landing, etc. DH is squarely a chase related perk, so it should stay on the Exhaustion system.
But yes, UB, DS and Deliverance could indeed all share a resource. One is a second chance while on the ground, one while being carried, and one while hooked, and they're all squarely under your control and don't require other survivors. Chaining all of those together would very much be like chaining multiple Exhaustion perks together.
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The anti-tunnel survivor perks do literally nothing to stop it. In matches where I felt the need to tunnel, I've hit BT, swung at Dead Hard and ate a DS and 70% of the time that person will die. Survivors need to stop relying on these perks so hard, they only make an endgame kill harder and that's the extent of DS/BT's powers. If you wanna save a tunneled survivor, teamwork, you use teamwork to help them out, teamwork is that last 30%.
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I thought of DH being both Exhaustion AND 2nd chance category (so you can't use both) or somehow nerf DH so it doesn't need to be an Exhaustion perk anymore. But that could be difficult.
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Making it one use per game might be a tad OP. DH isn't really a true 2nd chance perk like the others. It doesn't buy you a whole health state, it buys you a few seconds of chase, and how you use those seconds is up to you and your skill with looping.
Could always give it counters. Getting hit gives you 1 token, which is consumed when you use DH, and still gives you exhaustion. That way you get one use per chase, unless you happen to lose the killer without using it and then you potentially get 2 next time you get hit (but still subject to exhaustion timer). This would encourage survivors not to waste their limited tokens.
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"a few seconds" can very well be half a Gen worth of progress. Or even more depending on the map and the survivor's skill. But it IS a 2nd chance perk: being greedy on a loop? Press E to the pallet/window. Being outplayed? Press E. Farming off the hook with BT while injured? Press E to let the unhooked survivor tank the hit. Etc. Basically everytime you mess us in any way, you can press E to get away.
Yes DH is skill dependent, but it gives a lot of reward with low skill and even more with high skill. The problem are not bad or mediocre Survivors but the good and very good ones.
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