Why hug tech should be made a mechanic instead of removed.
I would like to have a rational discussion with proof and explanations. After all, no reason to believe anyone without proof. I will do the same. The post may be lengthy, but I would appreciate those offering disagreements to read it, as it covers a lot.
History of Games accepting bugs as features
To preface, games accepting bugs as features has been done for years. Some of the following examples have saved or boosted the success of some games, and became well-liked fun inclusions. Examples: fighting game combos, DMC’s airborne mechanics, DOTA creep-deny, b-hopping, wavedashing, rocket jumping, GTA police car bug, nuclear Gandhi, Team Fortress’ Spy origin, etc. If you want asymmetrical examples like Blight is to survivors, then you have cases like Riven’s animation canceling from League of Legends (only one of each character can be picked per game in ranked) where even if others can do some animation cancels, she has by far the most.
Not all of these started balanced or unanimously liked, and some are still hated today by others (eg, Riven) as well. Inclusion as a mechanic is precisely what allowed for smoothing out inconsistencies and balancing. Case in point: DBD started as a hide-and-seek game, but people liked looping and chase more as a gameplay system. This was in a time where DBD was not balanced around it, so you had literal infinites that you could not catch someone on no matter what. Literally gamebreakingly overpowered. However, to the hate of some and the love of others, it was turned into a mechanic instead and smoothed/balanced out.
A close look at hug teching
With that aside, let’s get specifically into hug tech. Hug tech is: (1) Well-received by a significant chunk of players. (2) Made Blight’s chases more interactive and skillful, both as and against the Blight. (3) Going off the earlier point, fully mindgamable. I agree Blight has problematic add-ons that need addressing, which is why this will be going off base Blight, as those add-ons shouldn't be an issue to begin with. Additionally, bump logic is stronger and more reliable than hug tech or sliding, because the former does not limit you to only a few paths of approach. The reason hug tech is valuable is because it situationally provides advantages such as using less rushes or unconventional directions, in return for risks such as being locked to only certain areas of pathing. In the first place, hug teching is situational and not always the best option regardless.
Well-received by at least some portion of players
Something being unanimously liked will almost never happen regardless. Players are not a monolith. The point is one major reason for inclusion of bugs rather than removal is they were all liked by at least a significant chunk. If no one liked it, no reason to keep it. Blight is a popular pick, and hug tech is well-received by a large chunk of them, as well as non-Blight players.
Increasing interactivity of chases for both
Without hug tech, the options in chase for both at some loops are "Blight will use bump logic and thus have X potential routes for approach, and thus moving to deny the connective ricochet is the mindgame to that." With hug tech, it now adds "Blight may use hug tech for potential route Y instead, and thus separating off the loop is the mindgame to that." The counter to bump logic will usually not cover the counter to hug tech and vice-versa. However, same goes for the Blight. If you expected the survivor to play around bump logic and so you go for a slide but the survivor actually predicted and avoided that, you become incapable of transferring off. In short, it adds a whole new dimension to mindgaming that can reward and punish either side, based off who makes the better calls.
Countering and mindgaming hug tech & sliding in general
Now, the actual part that can be proved: Showing it can be mindgamed just fine. Keep in mind, inclusion of a mechanic allows for further balancing. Not all bugs added started so. AKA, further balancing can be done if necessary if it is a mechanic. This is to prove that it is possible to respond to the technique on an inherent base level. AKA, that it's not inherently uncounterable by design. Hug tech is another form of sliding that starts from momentum 0 at the loop. Counter-play wise, it is the same as sliding in general. Whether they start from a standstill or from approaching at a distance does not really change the sliding itself on the loop itself. If you can see the Blight, it becomes even easier if you're at a location such as a pallet, since he must come to you anyways. If you cannot, both of you must mindgame the other as neither side will have that info. The following are examples of sliding or open-visibility counterplay for those stated reasons.
Examples of play against sliding or open-visibility approaches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrKo7-NNU_s&t=824s is an example of mindgaming and making them commit to a false direction with the scoot surf even in the open at point-blank.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-JdvyLQ68I&t=734s is an example of making the Blight chase you in an area with extremely messy collision that cannot be slid around in the first place, and the only way to reach the survivor is through the pallet. IE, no matter what, the pallet will go instead of the survivor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDv7Kt1q2S8 is another video from Hens with many examples of avoiding a sliding Blight successfully. 1:19 is the Blight committing to a scoot surf from too far away, but not having other options because of angle of approach. 1:40 would not have connected even without the Dead Hard, and is an example showing how trying to "re-correct" via a lunge means sharply dropping momentum and only having a certain maximum possible reach. 1:50 is messy collision. 3:57 is an example of the Claudette waiting too long instead of at the pallet and thus being hit because she read the Blight wrong. 7:06 is an example of Claudette going inside the shack where she cannot be reached by sliding, which the Blight did not have LOS of until doing so. 8:44 is an example where there's a pallet + visible sight, so regardless of sliding or not, the Blight cannot land the hit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArWKXCVLCuo&t=135s is a guide from Hens on avoiding hug tech.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/U6MjsOMjGLQ is an example of cutting off LOS, and then breaking away in the other direction off the loop. The Blight who is sliding will not have the vision to readjust before committing, at which point the momentum will sharply drop and prevent re-correction to a high enough instantaneous extent to land the hit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=167&v=e-29j3uWNrA is an example of knowing what cannot be slid around and bringing the Blight there. Objects in a map will always have the same collision as any other identical object in the same map. For instance, a car that can be slid on Wrecker's Yard means that exact car on Wrecker's Yard will always be slidable. Same for non-slidable objects. Thus, it can be learned, same way the Blight will learn what can and cannot be slid on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWdJaPSDKA8&t=168s is an example of the survivor leaving the loop when the Blight expected them to stay looping it, thus making the scoot surfing (not hug tech, but still same result) attempt completely useless.
Comments
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I won't go into too much depth because you already know my position and we're going to discuss it in loops.
I just point out that the examples of games that accepted the bugs are not asymmetrical. All of them you have the same number of players with possibly the same amount of meta roles that cancel each other out.
I.E: Even in games like LoL or Paladins where you can't select the same character on both teams, a tank that had its gameplay increased due to a glitch that was accepted, it won't make a difference, it's still weak alone against the DPS role from the other team.
Here at DBD (asymmetrical one), anything outside of what was predicted increases fatality/survival.
Blight currently has a strong base kit and belongs to a high tier.
Even if the glitch increases his gameplay (the good part), it's undeniable that it increases fatality, so the question is: Does he need it?
the better analogy is the constant glitchs that affect survivors in every update. Some decrease the gameplay (like the one that breaks the survivor's arm using the flashlight or that doesn't allow them to use the toolbox) and others increase the gameplay (the maps with constant spots that don't let the survivor be carried by the killer after being in the dying state ).
Same question: Survivors start making gameplay around it, placing map offering and forcing the situation to increase survivability. And it's not even like it's uncounterable, because it's just letting them bleed (slugging) or playing with killers like the deathlisger that pull them.
So, do the survivors need it? Clearly not.
Post edited by randonly on5 -
🙄🙄🙄
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Thanks for responding! It's true there's not really much asymmetrical examples above. However, there are not many popular asymmetrical games in the first place, so such a small size/low-played pool is not really statistically significant, on top of already being a nightmare to look for. That is kind of unavoidable.
Yeah, Blight is very strong and arguably the second-best killer in the game. Does he need it? Maybe not. But that in of itself would not be a good reason to remove it if it is not problematic and/or can be balanced further as a mechanic. For instance, Blight is accepted to have hug teching as an intentional mechanic, and they adjust other factors if they consider it necessary to counter-balance. Furthermore, in the roughly 2 years that Blight has been out, BHVR has made some balance changes here and there but has been largely untouched later on (outside of some add-on stuff). Wouldn't that be more indicative BHVR thinks Blight's performance is mostly fine overall even if hug tech itself is unintended?
I would argue your examples are not exactly comparable. In the case the flashlight/toolbox is bugged, it is completely broken and they can do nothing about it. In the case a survivor is downed in a certain area and cannot be picked up, again it is completely broken and they can do nothing about it except bleed them out, which directly kills interactivity rather than boosts it. Hug teching (and sliding in general) is not like that, and can be responded to, as well as making mindgaming more interactive for both sides.
Killer cannot swap killers anymore, and having to rely on bleeding someone to death because you cannot play normally is not comparable in the same manner to an alternate method of play that evokes a different form of response that allows for continual gameplay. This would be more comparable to something a bug such as Blood Lodge, when you could completely bodyblock the door to the basement if it spawned in the main building. It promoted AFKing by the doorway as rescue would be completely impossible, instead of continuing to play like normal which could allow for potential saves. The person hooked in question also really has no other options as well. Hope that makes sense.
Thanks for your incredibly constructive and helpful feedback, oh gracious poster. You have truly blessed the discussion with your great wit.
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I don't really have an opinion on the matter, I think Blight will do just fine without the Hug Tech, but it also doesn't need to be removed, as it's a fun addition to the game while remaining balanced, but what annoys me most is that the devs publicly revealed they are going to remove it, and now every time I play as Blight and get a successful hit with the Hug Tech, I get salty messages telling me to: "Enjoy the hug tech, it's going to be removed"
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I am of the same mindset. Even without it, he will still be around low S-high A, even if not second best/high S anymore. However, I think it adds to the fun and depth of the killer while also being balanced, and that is why I think it would be better to accept as a proper mechanic that can be balanced around if and whenever necessary even if it was overpowered or whatnot. The proof shows people are fully capable of mindgaming it. After all, bugs becoming accepted features has done much good for many games, and it is not comparable to a bug such as crashing the game/completely preventing normal play (eg, cannot be picked up), etc.
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"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrKo7-NNU_s&t=824s is an example of mindgaming and making them commit to a false direction with the scoot surf even in the open at point-blank.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-JdvyLQ68I&t=734sis an example of making the Blight chase you in an area with extremely messy collision that cannot be slid around in the first place, and the only way to reach the survivor is through the pallet. IE, no matter what, the pallet will go instead of the survivor."Idk why you put the these 2 example, I didn't see any hug tech there. I mean of course on some places the hug tech is not possible or not relevant enough to justify taking risks to do it.
What I dislike with the hug tech is: blight is a 115% move speed killer with the ability to negate most loops/structures and has godly strong addons. I'm nowhere near a god survivor, and I'll never reach the level of theses survivors in these clips since I played 800h in 3 years. The current best counter to blight for someone of my level is dh, and I agree dh is bs. But I also think the whole kit of blight is bs.
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It sucks for blight mains but basically most high level play hinging on a bug was definitely weird.
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Because hug teching and scoot surf both result in more or less the same kind of slide around an object? And if you can actively prevent something from being used, that is counterplay. For instance, going to an area where Huntress cannot use her hatchets.
Blight can only "negate" loops if he wins the mindgame. You yourself acknowledged you are not that good, but then shift the blame to balance, why? Also I already mentioned he has badly designed or overtuned add-ons that need changes anyways. This post is about his basekit.
So why not turn it into a mechanic and balance around it then?
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Because i doubt they would like smash bros melee level of technical skill in their game.
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It’s not super advanced technical skill in of itself like fighting game combos though. You press up close against an object and then rush. The only complexity is knowing when/where to use and apply it via mindgames. It’s the difference in knowing how to move a chess piece and knowing which piece you should move when. I think it’s better to have things that allow for skill expression on both sides like that (mindgaming potential going up).
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I feel like once a blight player reaches a certain skill floor, he destroys survivor with as much experience in the game. It's not for nothing if blight is considered by most the 2nd best killer in the game behind nurse.
Furthermore blight has 115% move speed that helps him in areas he can't use his power to catch up to survivors, unlike huntress.
By the way, how would you feel if blight became a 110% move speed killer while keeping his current rush speed?
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I would disagree on that part. He’s mostly peformatively balanced, outside of nonsense like Alchemist Ring, but matchmaking exacerbates it. I can try and look for evidence regarding this if you’d like me to.
I wouldn’t be a fan of it, because there are still loops the power cannot be really used on, and I think it targets the wrong part. His only real issues are some of the badly designed or overtuned add-ons. That said, I think he’d still be mid/low S or very high A. I just don’t think it’s the right target.
EDIT: Also, I think that balancing and adjustments with hug tech in mind as intentional would be better than doing so without. Either way, balance changes can be made, but the former allows for keeping an interesting part that allows for better skill expression in mindgaming from both sides.
EDIT 2: Also, in comparison with Huntress, it’s a bit different. You can’t exactly avoid a 40m/s hatchet, so the counterplay is making it hard for her to use them in the first place. Blight’s rushes can be mindgamed regardless, and so making him tank in places he can’t is a hit of a bad direction for balancing. Being a 110 on some loops is miserable.
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too long
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Why make a useless post then?
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Blight is supposed to bounce off walls and use that to hit people. Sliding is an unintended mechanic. Abusing the slide to hit people in ways your power was not designed for is just nuts.
Go back to 2016 and we had the ability with billy to make your chainsaw attack players at 90 degree angles from the direction of your chainsaw sprint. Many people wanted this to stay forever - because it made Billy WAY too strong.
I'm all for keeping strong killers Strong. You will be fine with the removal of Hug Tech. I feel certain you will learn new bounce methods to beat the very best loopers. And if you can't well you're still playing a killer better than every other killer in the game aside from Nurse.
Blight will still have:
- Very high mobility
- Very strong Anti Loop
- Very high chase Lethality
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You’ll sound more credible if you actually learn what you’re talking about.
Sliding in general is an intentionally created mechanic: https://www.twitch.tv/mclean_yep/clip/SullenProductiveAlmondPastaThat-3gIl_qyQ2UAmaqun
One of the two collision components is attached to the camera specifically to let it be adjusted: https://clips.twitch.tv/SaltyBeautifulFoxTriHard-d5EklvyTscZluOLe
Sliding techniques such as scoot surf are intended design, hug tech wasn't originally: https://clips.twitch.tv/InnocentSlipperyPlumageBuddhaBar-Ta89Ag9JLRGNVoRQ
Only hug tech specifically isn’t intended. Sliding otherwise is.
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If unintended sliding is such an issue, that means they're going to fix all the parts of maps that can't be bounced off of for no reason, right? ...Right?
Of course not. It's been over a year and a half since release and they haven't done anything to fix all the things Blight slides off of, with Ormond, Swamp, and many new killer shacks on redone old maps being some of the biggest offenders.
Make that aspect of Blight work correctly, THEN remove the bug that makes up for it. Not the other way around.
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I'm all for Blight not sliding all over terrain - but that might take a lot of work to fix all the terrain in the game because one killer slides (sometimes). It's likely not a priority.
You guys are acting like Blight is losing a core mechanic or as if he were losing his super strong addons. Neither is the case.
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No one is acting like that. It’s okay to get proven wrong. The post literally addresses it as much as well, which you’d know if you bothered reading it at all. Also the busted addons should be removed or reworked anyways, which is also addressed in the post you didn’t bother reading. Admitting you’re wrong is the first step to you learning.
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At high level gameplay, like competitive for example, it very much is a core mechanic, especially where add-ons are restricted. In pubs, I doubt it would make a huge difference, but I dislike the removal of any hard-to-master technique that lets players demonstrate skill and mastery.
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There's no need to try and be smug other than for your own Ego - which is obviously hurting because your favorite toy is about to lose something very dear to you.
I read your post and I disagree with you. No killer power should be as such that it always has a counter for every little thing the survivors do. Consider the idea of counterplay. A power should be fun when you use it and it should be fun when it is used against you. Blight in his current Omni form isn't fun to play against. Remove Hug tech and suddenly Blight is a lot more fun to play against. As a killer I know how killers like to run loops. And when the Blight can't hug tech you can make them miss in a number of really fun ways (besides pressing E).
I think you need to go spend some time playing some of the really limited killers this game has to offer. Go play a nice game of trapper with no addons. Send yourself to the crow map and remind yourself how easy your gameplay has been : in part thanks to hug tech.
Most of the time I get called "killer main". But sometimes I get called "survivor main" too. In truth I am a centrist. I would like the game to be fun and balanced for both sides. Generally speaking this means nerfing things that people enjoy because they are too strong or severely impact the fun of the opposing side.
There was an exploit somewhere around 2016 where Billy could clip through certain walls with the chainsaw. It was fun while it lasted. It even made the old suffocation pit with an actual infinite loop "fair". The devs were very quick to remove the exploit even though they didn't have a solution to infinite loops for 3-5 months later.
As for the argument ,"this was supposed to be in the game", I will remind you that the devs are not always aware of what they put in the game. The release version of DBD had an infinite loop so strong that it often took people 20 minutes of chasing to get a survivor off unless they had NOED. At the time NOED lasted forever, gave you 9% movement speed, was not a hex and could not be removed. Even with 9% movement speed it still usually took a minute or two to get survivors away from the "cow tree". Truetalent showed some old footage last night from this era on his stream. M. Cote was quoted as saying : there is nothing resembling an infinite loop in our game.
Despite the best of intentions sometimes what ends up being in a game needs to go away. Hug tech needs to go away. The devs decided it needs to go away. You should learn to adapt because this isn't some save the whales campaign. This isn't some bottom tier killer that sucks and is getting worse. This is the second best killer in the game changing to A+ rank instead of being S rank.
If you want to have the discussion, "but nurse is unfair to play against too" - we most certainly can. Nurse would be quite balanced if she:
- lost her omega blink addons
- Lost the abilty to cancel a long blink by looking into the ground
- Was forced to wipe her weapon before going into fatigue
Those three changes would make her harder to play but change her into an A tier killer that is still very viable, very strong and hard to play against.
As much as it sucks as an idea for someone who mains Blght; the beginning of DBD balance probably starts with no S tier killers.
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This is a tricky one, but I am still a little iffy on this. I think it should stay because of how much more interactive it can make chases feel. However there are times where it does feel a wee bit cheeky, but then again it can be outplayed. It doesn't completely break the game, but it is a massive part of blight gameplay once you get good with it.
I think that what makes it more on unfair side is when you start to use the speed addons with it. Because not only are you technically using a bug that is already cheeky, but now you have addons making it way harder or even impossible to outplay it. I think that this is the issue with the hug tech. But then again.... eh?
I think it should stay, and that bhvr should focus on more important things because as it stands it does not break the game. Since it is not entirely unfair and can be dealt with. However if it does get nerfed I think that BHVR should at least fix his movement a bit more and collision to make him feel smoother to play.
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You should try rereading what was actually said. You seem to really struggle with it. Hug tech is not that strong, and even its removal is only going to move him from high S to low S/high A. Removing sliding entirely would be removing a core mechanic, but that isn’t what’s being done. The sass from someone who was proven wrong is hilarious though.
Fun is subjective and is not a good standard for balance. Also, Trapper is one of my 3 favorite/most played killers, but keep assuming nonsense, it really just proves my point.
Ah yes, comparing it to a killer not designed for going through walls being bugged to be able to go through walls with an inherent instadown power.
Why are you responding to something literally nobody said? Literally nobody in this thread except you has said "this was supposed to be in the game". I can adapt, but that is not the point of this thread. It is better for game design to incorporate and balance around it.
Also Nurse is balanced already outside of range addons and three blinks, but that is completely irrelevant and off topic.
Try actually reading what people say, then try again. You keep making up strawman arguments literally no one is talking about. Is everything okay? You need help? I pity you.
And this is precisely why I mentioned incorporation of a mechanic is what allows for further balancing around it.
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Sorry, I only skimmed it, but in the first 4 or 5 paragraphs, I don't even see a description of what Hug Tech is. Just speeches about how it makes things intractable and why some bugs are good.
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My bad. Hug tech is when Blight starts a rush pressed up as close as possible to an object ("hugging") it, which will reduce/remove his collision, and thus facilitate easier sliding. An example of a successful mindgame with it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDv7Kt1q2S8 at 3:57.
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I could ask the same question to you.
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Hug tech should be fixed it’s a boring bug that only blight mains enjoy and defend.
it creates lose to lose situation on some loops and in general it helps you use less rushes in most loops. I hope there won’t be any hug tech since 6.0.0 update.
However BHVR should make a post on forum where they would ask people for screenshots/videos of textures / obstacles that do not have collision and it makes the blight slide. It would be a step forward. Since on some ormond, backwater swamps obstacles, Auto heaven shacks, you’ll just slide instead of bumping into it.
i seriously don’t care about your mind game videos or a tutorial how to counter it. I know how to counter it but it cannot be countered always. And it should not even exist in the first place just like nurse range addons which are still bugged and give you insane speed and they just won’t kill switch them.
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The biggest problem about Hug Tech is not its strength or acceptance in the core/hardcore community - it's consistency.
It is not consistent with his design, it is not consistent with established conventions of the game, and - within its own use - it is inconsistent what the Blight can and cannot use to slide or hug.
If any other Killer or Survivor had similar inconsistencies, there would be no question about having it restored to its base design.
As it stands - it is an inconsistent and dangling bit of his kit that pro players can exploit to gain advantage in certain situations.
Until it is removed, not only can we never tell with statistics the true health of the killer, but we will never be able to make useful patches or nerfs.
If people want to freak out so badly, make an yellow attachment that allows him to Hug again. Problem solved.
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The only way to fix hug tech is to overhaul collision or overhaul the collision for a 3rd time
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Point still stands. It is better to make it an accepted feature and balance around it. It is easier to counter than bump logic, because the only thing needed to counter it is running away off the loop. They will zoom past you still sliding. Hug tech is inherently a risk because it trades using less tokens for being less reliable/easier to counter.
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Do people actually think hug tech is ever worth doing over just bumping? You were already dead if you're in a position where a blight can do a hug tech and even then it can be avoided/flared it's just for style points in 99% of situations.
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Hug tech will not change his ranking at all if anything it will encourage flashy blight mains to actually run tiles correctly instead of relying on a gimmick
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so this is too long for me to read.
I am just going to drop what I think about hug-tech.
Hug-Tech is not a problem as of right now as Blight has way bigger issues balance wise.
Look at the add-ons:
- Compound 33 literally deletes pallets
- alchemist's ring makes blight near uncounterable in some situations; good blights turn into gods
- Adrenaline Vial hyperbuffs blight; it is 3 add-ons in one
- Compound 21 gives free aura reading
- even the weaker add-ons are actually really good
so blight does not need to be crippled base-kit wise, he needs add-on nerfs. IMO blight is good but not hyperbroken like nurse at least basekit wise.
also i think he should be a 110% killer like spirit.
He has an ability that gives him hypermobility + is good in chase. he should be punished for not using it, not be unphased by not using it.
Hug-Tech can stay as I personally think there are way more broken things about him that should be addressed first.
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Have you actually watched a competitive match of blight? You're forced to use double speed addons and almost every hit you will ever get will be from fast bump logic instead of a gimmick. There is a form of a hug tech that is much less obvious that let's you practically instantly start hug teching and rushing but that's only used sometimes at certain tiles.
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I pretty much agree. Bump logic is stronger than hug tech ever was or is. Trying to remove it and likely bugging collisions when it's not even overpowering in the first place makes no sense.
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