A Rework for The Nurse
I'm gonna start this topic by asking:
Why is there a killer on DBD who demands to be slower than survivors, while every other killer has a 4.4 or 4.6m/s base speed?
Needless to say, The Nurse is the strongest killer in the game by far. In fact, she's the only one whose skill ceiling is higher than the survivors'. A killer that can literally pass through loops - which are the most basic mechanic in the game - and ignore them can't be balanced at all (even compromising their base movespeed). I feel like this is an essential factor preventing the game to be properly balanced overall: you can't buff the killer side if there's a god tier killer that will just break the game with the slightest advantage. Since it's too late to not release this character, I have some suggestions for a rework that might help the game a little. The information about the current state of The Nurse was taken from https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Sally_Smithson
The Nurse:
- Base movespeed: 4.4m/s (currently 3.8m/s), just like a "normal" killer
- Blink recharge time: 6 seconds for each blink (currently 3)
- Blink maximum range: 8 (currently 20)
- Blink maximum charge time: 1 second (currently 2)
- Blink maximum duration: 0.5 seconds (currently 1.5)
- Base fatigue duration: 1.4 seconds (currently 2)
- Blink attack penalty: +1.6 seconds (currently 1), to match the 3 second cooldown for successful hits
- Soften the fatigue effect on the screen, making it not as hard to keep track of survivors after a blink (and especially after a blink attack)
- Make it so she can search lockers mid-blink (I don't really know if this one is a good idea, but I'll throw it in)
- Remove the lightburning effect
- Change some addons, adding effects like "seeing auras of survivors within 8 meters of distance while in the chain-blink window" and "breaking a pallet resets blink charges"
I don't know exactly how these numbers would work in practice (and I'm sorry if one or another turn out to be extreme), but the main idea is: turn The Nurse into a walking (or levitating) killer who can use her blinks for quick shortcuts, not mobility. She would still be able to blink through loops to get hits, but that's it. No need for 20 meter blinks to run the entire map in seconds. With the normal base speed she would be extremely healthier to play with and against.
Comments
-
Why is Nurse the only killer with a higher skill cap than survivor?
1 -
Unfortunately the facts remain the same. Until other killers are buffed to a competitive state, Nurse cannot and should not be touched. Yes we have Blight and Spirit but we need more then that. Wraith, Trapper, Billy, Trickster, Hag and so on either need much needed buffs or reworks to become stronger. However I fear the game may be dead before they get that far but dbd has persevered this long so I still believe in it
3 -
I think it's better to bring nurse down to earth first, urgently. She is literally game breaking, other killers don't even compare. After this I think the game would be finally ready to start buffing the killer side in general, which is urgent as well. Killers like Clown, Pig, Trapper and Myers should have their attention then. But I think Nurse is something way more imperative, as she is the most discrepant one right now.
4 -
In a paired-skill match up, the maps and objective always favor survivors. A team that knows what they're doing and knows how to loop and do gens strategically WILL have the advantage. It's 4 brains vs 1 brain. Nurse is the only one who can break the game mechanics (looping) and has the mobility to counter this. Maybe Blight can come a little close, but Nurse is certainly the discrepant one.
0 -
Nurse is in a good spot though, other than range addons/three blinks. She doesn't need a rework.
4 -
It would destroy the community. As I said before, Nurse is one of the only 3 killers who can play competitively because she's strong. She's not holding the game back or impacting it in a negative way, she's actually holding it up. I'm not saying all killers have to be nurse level, but they should be powerful enough to hold their own against survivors
4 -
Yes, I know that killers need to be buffed. But for this to happen, Nurse needs to be nerfed. She's already game breaking if used by the right hands. I think she does hold the game back, or the devs would probably have buffed the killer side (overall) by now, I hope. But I'm not saying they shouldn't do both. In fact, I don't think one thing can happen without the other. Buffing killers without nerfing nurse or the other way around wouldn't be good. They just need to level nurse with the other killers in order to make an even roster, and then act from there. I don't see other solution for the balancing problem in DBD.
Current Nurse will never be in the same path as the other current killers.
0 -
Do you play against GOOD nurses? How is that fair? it's VERY far from what any other killer can do.
Maybe you say she's in a good spot because all the other killers are in a bad spot. And that's my point. She needs to be leveled with the rest of the killer list.
0 -
Or we could just buff the other killers who are generally deemed subpar?
I really dislike this hypocrisy in this community when it's about the balance. Buff "weak solo" to SWF, nerf top killers. Funny that there arent many buffs on the survivor side that cannot not buff SWF too while buffing solo to that SWF level. On the other Side, We could make PIG the next Queen of DBD and it wouldnt impact nurse at all.
3 -
And? Nurse is balanced and in a great spot. Raise other killers up. Don't push the ones where they're supposed to be at down?
1 -
Is it better to buff each of the twenty something killers individually than nerfing the discrepant one and then buffing them all as a whole?
0 -
I don't know if I'm being unclear or what. I'm NOT saying that the killer side (apart from nurse) doesn't need a buff urgently, it does. But how can you do that if there's a killer that is already broken? (Please don't try to tell me that Nurse isn't broken, she's a thing apart from the DBD universe.) My idea is just to bring her closer to the other killers, balance-wise, so the killer roster is 1 whole thing, not 26 killers + the 1 god tier dissonant one (it is so). I'm definitely NOT trying to kill nurse, I'm trying to fit her in the DBD parameters properly, so then the game can be balanced without the worry of giving too much advantage to the god killer.
And do you really think the devs are gonna buff every single killer to Nurse level? They're not. If they were, it would take years to do so. It's WAY better to make her a DBD-belonging character and then proceeding to buff the killer side in general. Extremely simpler and more viable.
0 -
Nurse isn’t broken though. She’s well designed and balanced in performance. You can buff other killers without touching her. Also every killer doesn’t have to be Nurse level anyways.
If you want to make the claim she’s broken or whatever, give actual conclusive evidence she consistently overperforms against players of equal skill on even-sided maps. All actual evidence shows she is balanced.
2 -
You can't buff killers in GENERAL without buffing her as well. And doing this is the most viable way to balance the game. Why buff one killer at a time when you can do all at once? And you said they don't have to be "Nurse level", so... is Nurse level good, OP or what? And why wouldn't they have to be good?
The evidence of Nurse being broken is everywhere. In the game itself, the community, YouTube, Twitch, I don't know. I've played Nurse myself, decently, for a while before (post nerf) and it was EXTREMELY different than any other killer. When you learn how to play her, you're unstoppable. It's the only killer whose success isn't based on survivor mistakes (it's rather the opposite: the survivors' success is based on nurse's mistakes). Like I said, it's the highest skill cap in the game and probably the only higher than survivors'. Please don't consider a mediocre Nurse as a parameter. She's always restricted or banned in tournaments for a reason.
Good survivors rule the game. Except with good Nurses. She's exceptional. That's my point.
1 -
Killers don't need almost any general buffs, and the ones that could be argued are a non-issue on Nurse. Huge maps need a size reduction. Survivors should probably either spawn together or in pairs. Base regression should be raised from -0.25 to -0.5 and Ruin made 100% to match. That's really about it. Nurse is extremely good. Other killers can be made better/very good without having to be to her extent. Everything Nurse does is mindgameable, which is why she averages out to 2K. Please learn what you're talking about. Chase is determined by the more skilled player. The only time she's ever restricted in tournaments is when they don't want to see the match being exclusively Nurse/Blights, and usually limit them to later rounds only.
1 -
Map size reduction will affect Nurse. She already crosses maps super fast and that will just make it even stronger.
Gen regression would obviously affect Nurse too.
She has an average of 2K because nurse is one of the hardest killers to learn how to play. Imagine if she wasn't?
Chase is hardly determined by the killer. Survivors are the ones leading (even if the killer zones them, the survivor is technically the target). A well played loop is tough for most killers. Not for Nurse.
You would see exclusively Nurses and Blights in tournaments because they're the actual strong killers in the game.
1 -
She's already balanced on existing size maps like Macmillan/Autohaven stuff. Reducing the giant size maps does not change that, because they are not giant maps.
0.25 to 0.5 is a non-issue for Nurse.
The best Nurses in the world have a 2K average against the best survivors in the world, both in and out of comp.
Yes, it's almost like other killers should be raised up instead of knocking down the balanced ones?
1 -
I really don't understand how buffing the map sizes and gen regression would affect every killer but nurse.
Who are those Nurses? I wanna see them playing.
Again: I don't want to nerf all killers. I wanna buff them, but how can BHVR possibly buff the killer side without affecting a killer that's already overpowered?
1 -
- Because Nurse is balanced on mid-sized maps like Storehouse. Small maps like Midwich should also be redesigned, there's a lot of problems with it. And giant maps are bad for everyone. AKA, bringing maps closer to mid-size becomes better for everyone.
- Base regression would only matter on kicking it or causing it to start regressing through a non-Ruin method. For a Nurse that uses Ruin or doesn't kick gens/use gen regression, it already doesn't matter. For stuff like Pop/Pain Resonance/etc, it would only affect regression afterwards which can be stopped with a single tap regardless. It's a buff, but a pretty much negligible one. Base regression is flat out useless currently.
- I explained this part in length in another post so I'll just link it rather than re-paste it for sake of brevity: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2945973#Comment_2945973
- Because you can do killer specific buffs that touch on certain problems and weaknesses of their design, and things like map size reduction for the above reasons would really not make her "overpowered" unless you consider going from disadvantaged to even-sided being a bad idea, when it also includes that small bad maps should also be addressed which would bring her from advantaged to even-sided on those maps.
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. I genuinely enjoy helping anyone who's willing to actually listen.
1 -
The thing I love about this community is how all-over-the-place it is about the Nurse.
Some people swear she's super strong
Some people swear that she's fine as-is.
Some people swear that she needs a rework.
Some people swear that she's secretly their mother.
There is absolutely no consensus on the Nurse, and that scares me more than anything.
1 -
The Nurse is perfect as she is and loved by many players both as the chaser and the chased.
2 -
Isnt that just the normal us vs them stuff? Different people have different ideas about balance and stuff. And our community is quite split about killer powers, even inside the killer side ( see old freddy vs new freddy).
Just see my version of your post.
- Nurse is strong, compared to other killers.
- Nurse is fine, compared to survivors.
- In the eyes of biased people*, she needs a rework.
- A kink for sure, but not a crime.
* "buff survivors bottom up, nerf top killers"-hypocrisy.
0 -
I totally know what you mean - but this is something else.
Us vs Them creates two separate consensus that they pit against one another.
When it comes to Nurse, there is no 'Us' or 'Them' - you can ask 5 different people for opinions and get very different responses.
it's not even split down the middle.
There is no split.
There are no 'sides'
It's all chaos. That's my point.
1 -
tbh i'd love if all killers were nurse level, thatw ay it'd be exciting to play as a survivor
1 -
"It's the only killer whose success isn't based on survivor mistakes (it's rather the opposite: the survivors' success is based on nurse's mistakes)."
This is DEFINITELY NOT the way it should be. The survivor's success should always be based kn the killer's mistakes, and not the other way around... The game is already 4v1 with everything in favor of the survivors, and if the killer can only success if the survivors fail that's completely ridiculous... All killer's should be able to win if the play flawless, instesd of waiting for survivors to fail.
4 -
Hear me out!
In my eyes, what makes Nurse so much better than the other killers is the loops. The fact that Nurse can simply Blink through and ignore loops that other killers have problems with is what makes her so powerful.
Right now, most pallets completely reset chase. If it's dropped, the killer has no choice but to break it.
So my suggestion would be: instead of touching the killers, rework loops. Make then less safe on their own, make them easier to chain.
This should make other killers let that little bit closer to Nurse in chases.
1 -
Let me make it even clearer. I DON'T think Nurse is broken in ABSOLUTE terms. I KNOW she is a perfect match for survivors, considering they're both extremely powerful. The problem is: she is totally dissonant with every other killer in this game. My issue is with her strength RELATIVELY with the rest of DBD. I don't know how a game that has a killer like Nurse and a killer like Pig can be balanced. And those other killers like Pig will never be strong enough if there's a Nurse (as she is right now).
- Midwich is a great map in my opinion, but it might be just me. Giant maps are good for survivors and bad for killers, but a killer who can blink across the entire map in a few seconds has a LOT less trouble with it. Don't forget that she's already an S tier killer who can ignore loops and obstacles.
- It still doesn't make sense that "it wouldn't affect nurse". Doesn't Nurse have "Damage generator" action? It wouldn't affect a Nurse just as much as it wouldn't affect GhostFace.
- I don't think competitive play is a good way to measure a killer's strength. It's another mindset and everyone is extremely optimized to reach the given goal. I've watched some of the videos you posted there and you can see clearly how SupaAlf had no big problem dealing with that SUPER efficient team. He even said "from healthy to downed in 15s in average". Can't you imagine if that was any other killer?
- I don't understand what you're trying to say. She can cross most maps in like 2-4 blinks. A small map would make it even faster. She would be everywhere everytime.
0 -
Yeah but that ain't gonna happen. Even if they were intending to buff all killers to her level, it would take a LOT of time and effort. I've said this in this topic but I'll say it again: it's better to level her with the other killers and then buffing everyone generally than wasting time and effort to do one by one individually (not even considering that it wouldn't be consistent for all of them).
0 -
That would be actually good, I think. It's probably the only way to buff killers in general without buffing nurse as well.
The game needs to stop making survivors feel safe all the time.
1 -
Excuse me? You think the skill cap for survivor is high? Survivors can win the game if everyone rushes the objectives and is a terrible looper.
Anyway here is the way to fairly nerf Nurse and keep her skill cap high but not "oppressive".
- Remove Omega Blink addons (See tofu's video on the topic). In general addons to make her blink more distance or make her blink the same distance in less time just need to go unless you charge for more time and in response you get more distance.
- Remove the ability to "cancel" a long blink by looking at the floor. If she's on "ground level" she goes zooming off to the distance because she misjudged the blink.
- Make all killers have a "3 second delay cooldown" when they score a hit no matter what. This would cause Nurse to have a weapon wipe cooldown and then fatigue. This would force her to blink a time or two to get in range of a blink before she could score a hit. This would end the : "blink blink hit, blink blink hit" problem.
She would require more skill than she does now and have extremely fair counterplay. She would be vulnerable to mind games where survivors double back. This would turn her from an S rank killer into an A rank killer.
1 -
I think 2 and 3 would only make her harder to play for beginners, not skill-capping for good players. Good nurses will still do a lot with her. I think the only way to properly balance her is redesigning the blink mechanic. The very essence of it is literally breaking the game physics.
0 -
The only tweaks she needs for now:
·You should be able to burn her much faster with a flashlight (this mechanic is literally useless right now)
·Stuns on her should be more effective since these are harder to do against this killer. The stun duration + fatigue duration should be stackable.
·Reduce the distance of her normal lunge attack. (It's a nerf only to her base lunge attack when she's walking, take tier 1 Myers as an example of what you could tweak)
·Nerf her best addons aka the distance ones. These addons are broken on this killer specially if you play with Exposed abilities in combination with Info perks.
0 -
Canceling a long blink allows for catch 22 scenarios. In the time you recover they cant get beyond your blink range so it becomes a free hit with the next set of blinks.
Making her have a hit cooldown before fatigue would make her chases a lot longer becuase survivors would have about 8 seconds (including blink charge time) to run. This has a lot of potential to be very confusing because they are well out of sound range and you might even lose some of the tracks.
As a basis of comparison I notice a huge difference between STBFL on a normal mobility killer when I have 8 stacks vs 0 stacks. The chase savings on a hit with 8 stacks is only 1.2 seconds but it feels like an eternity due to the distancing of map terrain. I think you would find expert nurses having far more difficult chases overall if they changed her like I described.
She would still be very strong but her power would have more strict limits that survivors could use to their advantage.
As an overall plan for DBD I support nerfing Nurse and Blight down to "A ranks" with the understanding that SWF would likewise get nerfed to oblivion. The nurse changes I am proposing are not minor.
How should SWF change? Quite simply you should not be able to repeat any perks or items (all firecrackers would block any other variety). That would instantly increase the value of solo play to a point where many people might find SWF too limiting.
0 -
I think the best choice is to limit what Nurse can do, not making harder what she already does. Just making her playstyle more difficult wouldn't decrease her max potential, just restrict it (based on skill, thus not reducing her skill cap), and I don't think that is the healthiest way.
I don't think limiting perks (to one per team) in SWF would be an interest mechanic. People wouldn't get to run perks they're comfortable with, such as spine chill, kindred, etc. But now that I think about it, only teachable perks could be limited, but not for their respective character (4 Megs could have 4 Sprint Bursts, for example). I'm still waiting for that info mechanic that shows what your teammates are doing in the match, that will be a very nice addition as well.
Anyway, I think you agree with me that, in the game current state, there's no possible way to perfectly balance everything having a killer like Nurse and killers like Pig and Myers playing the same role.
0 -
The first step for DBD balance is remove the S tier killers that are miles ahead. The changes I suggested for Nurse would put her in a place where a skilled survivor could make her miss quite often. She would still be strong but her limits would be a lot more fun to play around.
With just the change to charge blink cancel I could probably make most nurse players give up. Most nurses resort to hitting me with point blank blinks. If we had the weapon cooldown you could get a ton of distance on the killer while they "reset: This means they have to blink once for distance before they can even consider attacking. That's a huge change over how Nurse plays right now.
As for SWF there's 3 realistic options that I've seen proposed over the years.
- Make SWF inefficient based on how many people are in the party. This would be a 5% debuff for all interactions (healing, gens, totems, chests, unhooking, etc.) so that a 4 man swf has a 20% debuff which would persist the entire game (no matter who is left alive) and could stack with thanataphobia. This punishes people who are not in a swf playing with people who are.
- Give solo players 4 extra information perks if in a game with a swf. This will balance out the swf's ability to talk. Give killers against a swf 4 extra perks of their choice that are chosen before the game. In both cases the perks are chosen ahead of time and only activate if the game features SWF. This nerfs SWF by proxy and makes killer and solo survivors better than killer.
- Limit perks and items so there are no repeats. This is the most simple fix. SWF is potentially weaker than 4x solo survivors because the 4 solos can have 4x DH's, unbreakables, BTs, etc. Meanwhile SWF has to plan out perks. This is fine because there are plenty of healing, exhaustion and aura information perks to go around.
1 -
Nothing in this game is in a competitive state and we need to stop acting like it is. Granted, this is not the direction that Nurse should be changed in, but competition is not a good excuse.
0
