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Regarding The Pig's Five-Box update
Regarding the Pig's 5-Box update:
When we implemented this, we added another alteration to the key system, which was not announced. We didn't wish to call attention to it due to its complexity, but in light of the community response to the Five-Box update, we'd like to clarify that the Pig's update in this release is not a nerf.
At the start of a match, The Pig begins with three "searches" per trap, or 12 searches in a normal game. Each time she places a trap, a number of the remaining searches is chosen, from one to four. This is how many searches it will take the Survivor to remove the trap.
If all four traps are removed, it is guaranteed that all 12 searches will be used. As an example, we could have the following possible number of searches for the removal of the four traps in a game:
2, 2, 4, 4
4, 3, 4, 1
3, 3, 4, 2
etc.
In the event that addons adjust the number of traps, so is adjusted the number of searches. So with Amanda's Letter, she has two traps and six searches.
Before the update, it took an average of 2.5 searches to remove a trap, for an average of ten searches to remove all four traps in a match. We have increased the average from 2.5 to three, so that's a buff. Also, we have completely removed the worst case scenarios of four or 16 searches to remove the traps, so Pig's performance will be far less prone to RNG weirdness.
Comments
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Thats nice. Removing some of the RNG on the side of the Pig-player is a good thing and was asked for by a bunch of people.
Thanks for clarifying this!
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If I'm understanding correctly, the box itself has no key....it's just based on number of searches....
IE Search 3 is the lucky search....It doesn't matter what box I search so long as it is my 3rd search?
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so if you have jigsaw's sketch and jigsaw's annotated plan does that mean there's 18 searchs?
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The average number of searches is 3 to determine the max amount of 12 searches.
But each time a trap is placed it gets a random number 1-4 assigned and that's the number of boxes it needs to be searched to get off. That means you can have luck and only need on box or 4 with no specific box having the key but the amount of boxes searched is the criteria for the trap removal.
Edit: And i guess there is the restriction that every box can only be searched once.
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So the system is completely changed, from what I understand.
I'm not going to lie, this new system is difficult for me to understand (though the numbers you put forward seem to suggest that it is indeed a buff?). It SOUNDS to me like the Pig starts with 12 total searches (assume basekit) and the game will randomly distribute those 12 searches between the four Traps as she slaps them on the Survivors, since you say that all four traps being removed means that the Survivors did a combined total of 12 searches. What determines how many searches is assigned to a Trap?
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Afai understand it yes, but each trap can still only have max 4 searches necessary for removal.
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This genuinely makes me happy!
One of my biggest issues with Pig was the inconsistency of her power due to RNG and knowing that this has indeed been addressed to bring some actual consistency in that both Killer and Survivors can plan and play around is incredible news!
Thank you.
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Thank you for clarifying things on the forum. Much appreciated.
7 -
It is 100% a Buff. And not hard to understand IMO.
The RNG got removed on the Pigs Side. Instead of having something between 4 to 16 searches, it is a flat 12 Searches for all Traps. While this means that you cannot get the "best case" anymore of every Survivor having to search 4 Boxes each, you also cannot get the worst case anymore, which means that every Survivor would get rid of their Trap at the first Box.
Furthermore, if you get unlucky and a Survivor removes their Trap on the first Box, you know for sure that the other Survivors will take a long time, because there are 11 searches left, which means that there will be two Survivors who have to search 4 Boxes and one Survivor who will have to search 3 Boxes.
12 -
This changes how I thought the boxes worked.
So, if understanding this correctly, when a survivor gets their braces the game predetermines it will tak 1 to 4 boxes before the hat comes off. An illusion of choice if you will.
If the fourth survivor knows how many attempts it took for their teammates to remove their hats, then they know how many it will take for them to remove, (12 - attempts).
Should still point out the possibility for all four survivors having to search four boxes was removed. A slight nerf, yes? 😉
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Very much appreciate the communication here Almo
Thank you so much!
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I guess the main thing that I am struggling to wrap my head around is how the game calculates which numbers (from 1-4) to choose from when assigning the traps. Like, with this system, that would imply that it is impossible for more than one Survivor to get the trap off in one shot. Is there a pool of numbers to choose from like in bingo or something? One 1, two 2s, two 3s, or whatever? Does the game calculate on the fly which numbers are ineligible for future traps (i.e. once you get a Survivor with one search Trap, the game finds that it is impossible to divide the remaining searches with another one-search Trap)? Idk, this is something only the devs can answer. All I know is that it SEEMS like an even bigger net buff to Pig than I initially expected, as now it is impossible to have more than one Trap be removed in a single search. I will gladly take the buff here.
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"Should still point out the possibility for all four survivors having to search four boxes was removed. A slight nerf, yes? 😉"
If I am understanding this system correctly, it also means that if one Survivor gets their trap off in one search, the remaining Traps will come off in 4, 4, and 3 searches (in no particular order). That is big.
9 -
Um... It is still a nerf? Like, all I care about is the headpop. It is not that difficult to understand why people are calling it a nerf.
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Thanks for clarifying.
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Thanks for the clarity.
3 -
Thanks for letting us know :)
3 -
Would it help if if I said that the new system makes it very likely that at least one person will have to search four boxes, which is the only way a Survivor has a chance to die to the trap (outside of hardcore tunneling, which is pretty gamelosing for the Pig anyways)?
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Thank you for sharing! I understand that more technically-complex changes like this can be confusing to many and prone to mis-interpretation, but honestly this sounds like an all-around positive change that makes me more enthusiastic about playing Pig in the future!
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I get that it is more consistent, but I'll never have that feeling of GUESSED THE RIGHT BOX ON TRY 1, AWWWW YEAH again :(
It makes the power way less exciting/funzo, imo.
I'd be interested to see someone record the search attempt numbers with a 4-man SWF to see if it all pans out as it is supposed to....or to make a video in KYF.
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I was happy to see AFK pig go anyway, but this is quite a different design than all the speculation, indeed. 3 box average searches per hat is very nice. You have pleased this piggy. Thank you for explaining the update, Almo.
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Interesting to consider that very high skill SWFs will now know to count and announce searches to plan around who will have to dedicate more or can dedicate less time to searching. Especially in matches where you get a 4/4/3/1 - that last survivor may likely greed pretty hard knowing they just have the one search.
An even higher skill Pig may be able to count searches as well, in some contexts - it's really juicy info to have and will add a lot of strategic considerations at the upper layers of MMR pig matches
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Perhaps. I think that is something that can equally benefit both sides. Though tbh, if a Survivor gets their Trap off on the first search, it doesn't make a huge difference when they get it off unless they take a long time without either searching a box or doing a gen.
1 -
A very rough guess is the code has a variable with a starting value of 12 (or "number of traps*3"), when you set a trap it selects a random number between 1 and 4 and substracts it from the 12, then the next trap does the same and substracts the number from the new variable, then the next and until you run out of traps and the last person gets wathever number is left. They probably put safeguards to avoid the code picking two "1" like if someone rolls a "1" it saves it and checks it against next rolls, if it does it probably rerolls until it gets a valid number.
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If we write out all the sets of combination, there's only 1 combination that doesn't result in a survivor taking 4 attempts (3, 3, 3, 3).
Assuming I didn't miss any I got 31 total possible arrangements of the following 4 unique sets.
1, 3, 4, 4
2, 2, 4, 4
2, 3, 3, 4
3, 3, 3, 3
Here's all the sets written out in an image
1/31 (~3%) chance that no survivors take 4 attempts to get out.
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I remember our discussion a few days ago - I guess we're both happy now :D
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"In the event that addons adjust the number of traps, so is adjusted the number of searches. So with Amanda's Letter, she has two traps and six searches."
Correct me on this, but isn't this wrong? Each trap can only have 4 searches till the trap is removed. So isn't it still 4 searches even with just 2 traps? Or did I miss something entirely?
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It just means that if the pig starts with 2 traps, she'll have 6 total searches divided between the 2 traps.
Which leaves you the combinations:
2, 4
3, 3
4, 2
2 -
Six searches total between the two traps, meaning that the # of searches the first takes will guarantee the second takes the remainder. 4/2 or 3/3.
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I'm not a pig player but I do enjoy seeing Ms piggy now and again. Seems very odd that for a very limited resource the traps don't enforce maximizing the number of searches.
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If it's always the same number of searches, you lose any sense of hope that it might come off early. This is why Trapper's Traps aren't just a single value for how long it takes to get out, but a variable one.
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Here's some statistics I calculated out with these changes.
Odds that 1 survivor takes 1 attempt is 38.7% (12/31).
Odds that at least 1 survivor takes 2 attempts is 58.1% (18/31). one 2 attempt is 38.7% (12/31) and two 2 attempts is 19.4%(6/31)
Odds that at least 1 survivor takes 3 attempts is 80.6% (25/31). one 3 attempt is 38.7% (12/31). two 3 attempts is 38.7% (12/31). three 3 attempts is 3.2% (1/31)
Odds that at least 1 survivor takes 4 attempts is 96.8% (30/31). one 4 attempt is 38.7% (12/31). two 4 attempts is 58.1% (18/31).
The odds that when the pig places a trap on you it'll take
1 attempt: 9.7% (12/124)
2 attempts: 19.4% (24/124)
3 attempts: 32.2% (40/124)
4 attempts: 38.7% (48/124)
Overall, survivors as a whole will be checking boxes 3-4 times more often than they do 1-2 times.
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It seems like it will be especially nice when using Amanda's Letter by itself to be sure those two trapped survivors will be entertained for those lengths of time, so you can go about your stealthing. No more extremely unfortunate 1-and-1 box search Amanda's Letter games!
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Oh, this is quite nice. It's a bigger change to her mechanics than I was expecting, but it lessens the RNG across the match, which was one of Pig's Achilles' Heels. I'll gladly lose the chance of everyone needing 4 boxes to lose the chance that everyone gets it off in 1-2 boxes.
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Hey Almo, thank you for clarifying this! I have wanted to see a change like this made to the pig for a while to reduce her RNG overall so I’m very happy to hear this.
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Exactly. The whole point of playing Pig is that she might get head pops, and this is a nerf to head pops, because the worst case scenario is still 4 boxes, but due to the fact there are now 5 boxes, it's easier for the survivors to do the worst case scenario.
I don't play Pig for the slowdown. If I wanted that, I could just play someone else, who probably has a much better chase power.
1 -
Tbh I've only bothered to play Pig to play the afk strat with Rancor and yellow mori because I think she's one of the lamest killers in the entire game. I'm happy to see these changes though, and I'm happy for Pig players.
Thanks for the clarification Almo.
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This is(In an overly complex and round about way) what players both playing as and facing Pig have been asking for for literal years: The removal of the RNG high roll and low roll on Reverse Bear Traps.
So its rather weird that it was hidden despite it being one of the community's most requested changes to the Pig's traps since her release.
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No no no! You can't be right! It must be a nerf!
2 -
"The whole point of playing Pig is that she might get head pops"
According to devs, the primary purpose of RBTs is to slow the game down, not to kill Survivors with them. So you're just not correct in that regard.
5 -
What TAG said, but also, this change actually does buff headpopping - it's just specifically the kind of headpopping that you work to make happen. Headpopping that happens at random was nerfed, yeah. There's no more tossing up a Midwich offering, Tampered Timer, and Crate of Gears, and getting a kill or two just from passive RBTs; her addon change lowered her lethality somewhat and the 4/5 box change means that survivors will never have to run a full circuit around the map unless they mess up.
But those addons are still good for cranking up the pressure, and this change increased the odds of any given trapped survivor being worth bullying. Harassing a survivor who hasn't searched any boxes yet is a waste of time (unless it's just a 'you're free real estate' easy hit) because there's every chance they'll get it off immediately; when chasing headpops, the Pig wants to go after survivors who've already searched 2-3 boxes, and their trap's timer has already progressed a lot. That's when she wants to chase them away from the remaining boxes and leave them on the wrong side of the map. With this change, the average number of boxes a survivor will have to search has gone up, and the weighted chance flat-out ensures that there will be survivors who end up vulnerable to the Pig harassing them. There's only one possible configuration where nobody has to search 4 boxes, and in that scenario, everyone has 3 - and you can totally make 3 work.
In addition... I doubt that in a normal game, you'll be able to accurately track how many searches survivors make, but you might be able to tell the strength of your subsequent traps with some guesswork. Like if you put a party hat on survivor #1 and they get it off very fast after the unhook, you know that your remaining RBTs are going to be some mix of 4, 4, and 3. It won't always be this clear-cut, but you can do some mental math with whether they healed on the HUD, whether there was a box anywhere near that hook, what addons you're running... Point is, this can help you make informed decisions on when to go after players who, under the previous system, would have been risky to devote much attention to.
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Any news on making a score event for booping the snoot?
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: O the total number of searching idea it great, this way, the time consuming is always 12, not RNG between 4 and 16.
So at least if I have to search 4 times, I know my teammate can unlock trap in a single try.
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I know a certain pigmain thats gonna be like "no its still a nerf"
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Thank you for fixing the Pig exploit but she didn't need a buff to along with it. Always buffing killers is making your game unplayable.
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This is a pretty huge buff to some of her add-ons.
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You say as they are talking about nerfing all our gen regression perks :')
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Tbf, Survivors can now also work with it which is good.
It's overall a buff to her but it also fixes the most edge-case RNG like every Survivor searching 4 RBTs. Which is a good change for Survivor as well.
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Thank you for actually clarifying to the community on this. Its nice when deb's do this in games.
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I don't get why this wasn't just announced in the first place.
It's the same nonsense as why we spent 4 years with crap add on descriptions full of vague terms like "slightly" and "moderately."
We play complex games, we LIKE knowing complex interactions, we LIKE exact values.
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