http://dbd.game/killswitch
DH Rewards Failure
Three times out of the few matches played today I have actually lost due to one perk.
A reminder that Dead Hard is a perk that rewards failure. The killer did well completing the objective against impossible and unbearable odds only for someone to lose because the game gives the survivors a petty escape.
I wouldn't mind this perk if two conditions were true;
1) The perk completely changed to something else.
2) Killer had a similar perk.
It's not a good feeling to lose when the opponent played poorly but got rewarded for it. When the state of the game incredibly favors the survivors, DH needs a change now.
Comments
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Wait.. don't tell me.. DON'T tell me..
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Does it really reward failure?
People play more "greedy" because they have Dead Hard, you didn't outplay them and catch them, because they knew they had Dead Hard, killers are also faster than survivors and also have bloodlust (which actually rewards failure, for free, unlike Dead Hard, which is a perk slot), so it's almost inevitable you'll catch up to a survivor.
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Then isn't it such a good idea it's confirmed as one of the fourty perks that's being reworked.
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The fact that I was reading Sluzzy’s recent post about NOED before I saw this is further proof that the universe has a very ironic sense of humour
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Hate to break it to you but if you compare BLOODLUST to dh you dont know what you're talking about
It takes forever for bl to kick in, its takes forever to go from stage 1 to stage 2 and even more so to stage 3
It resets every time you use your power, every time you break a pallet and unlike DH isnt in your control
Plus its a 4v1 game, meaning one side has to be stronger than the other. If you could loop the killer for 5 minutes only running around a rock, it would be kinda stupid no ?
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it does i had a survivor trapped in the corner on Gideon Meat packing Plant with no were to go as i hadn't broke the wall yet and all they had to do was press E to run past me without taking any dmg, in my eyes the survivor failed in that chase and got cornered what should of been a down lead to another chase by just pressing E.
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I thought the whole point of dead hard was to reward success by using the perk at the right time. DH doesn't always reward you. If you time it wrong you get little to nothing out of it. The implication with the OP's take is that you're already failing and the perk is rewarding you for it.
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Well noed also rewards failure in that case, soooo
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Where did I compare them?
I simply stated that this whole "rewards for failure" point doesn't mean anything because people will play a loop longer because they know they can get an extra loop out of it because they have dead hard, and instead offered up an actual thing in the game that rewards killers for failing chases but no one is complaining about that when it actually does reward failure passively.
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It doesnt rewards failure, its a band aid fix for bad map design
Explain to me how am i supposed to catch a survivor on laurie's house as a m1 killer
Or on fathers campbell window
Or on house of pain of badham
Thats right, you cant if it wasnt for bloodlust (if both players palyed the loo right) they are called infinite for a reason. If it wasnt for bloodlust you would never catch up to them.
And btw i proc bloodlust maybe once every 2or 3 games since its so hard to proc whereas i see dh in every chase
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At unsafe Loops, Bloodlust rewards failures. It is really often that you see Killers just bloodlusting an unsafe Loop, because they are not able to catch the Survivor.
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DH does not reward failures. Most of the time Survivors can play greedy because they have DH. This allows them to take that extra Loop or to make it to the next window instead of using the nearby Pallet. They dont miscalculate it, they can play greedy because DH allows it.
Also, have you gameplay of your videos? I am very sure that you did not lose the games just because of DH. You might want to think it, but you probably made a few mistakes which led to you losing.
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Both NOED and Dead Hard are bad for the same reason. They are a crutch that enables a weaker player to do things that greatly influence the game almost on demand. Yeah of the two Dead Hard is slightly more skilled and saying it rewards failure is... not right but both perks are still obvious crutches and I'd love to see both banished.
One makes it so that one less hit is required, the other negates a hit entirely they are both similar in their effects. Though NOED is slightly less obnoxious because there's 'some' albeit obnoxious counter play it only works at the end and if someone didn't snuff all the totems whereas Dead Hard works constantly throughout the match and you can't counterplay them using Dead Hard for distance and 'waiting it out' in other situations is bucket loads of not fun and is as obnoxious as NoED's totem counter. Baby survivors Dead Harding into the wall is not worth factoring into the discussion.
Point is though if you did a poll on most hated perk on both sides NOED and Dead Hard would win both sides by a landslide.
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Not really, this is just a word for word copy and invert version for dead hard. Op also just saw the sluzzy post and made this afterwards, hence the exact same wording and title.
In my eyes the most boring form of critique.
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It's funny how you say I know nothing but things that aren't infinite get called infinites, it's a terminology coined way back when and stuck around regardless of it being a literal infinite or not, which don't exist anymore, and haven't for a long time, just the same as syringes being called insta heals by people despite being far from their old insta healing past.
and I don't care how often you see Dead Hard, or how often you proc bloodlust, I also don't care what they do to Dead Hard, my argument is that it isn't simply a "reward for failing" etc. You're thinking too hard about this, lol.
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Dh doesn't technically reward failure but encourage
braindeadrisky plays that would under any other circumstances be viewed as a failure. Got out into the open against huntress/deathslinger/trickster? E. Want to greed a loop? E.In those situations the survivor knows they are never in any sort of danger and thus can afford to play like that. It only rewards failure if a survivor gets mindgamed because I highly doubt the survivor planned to fall for the mindgame.
Don't get me wrong, the perk is terribly designed and will hopefully get balanced soon, but most of the time the survivors don't "fail", but play risky knowing that they have E to bail them out of unfavorable situations
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Bloodlust Rewards Failure? So if im chasing one survivor and he actually has a good Rng set up, (I.E L/T Into long haybale loop into shack into another loop) and bamboozle doesn't do anything to stop him Also using the loop, that's My fault? hm,
Guess it's also my fault when survivors also run the large buildings on maps that's just strong as it stands then,
Guess I Need More Practice To Be Able to 4k at High MMR with my Boi Wraith,
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Dead Hard doesnt reward failure, it has an activation condition which is crystal clear, being injured, once you get injured you can use it, simple as. Failing as Survivor isnt getting hit, the game is designed for Survivors to get hit eventually, failure as Survivor is dying, right now there isnt a single perk that rewards Survivors for dying (at least the dying person).
Now I have a question for all Killer mains, once DH gerts nerfed in the upcoming mass balance how do you decide whats the next outcry inducing perk/mechanic? The strongest Killer decides for all? Are you going to host a poll where everyone can vote? There is some short of Killer Junta formed by the streamers who decides for the rest? or some sort of "Killer bureau " decides and then assigns quotas regarding posts on the forum to every Killer main? every Killer region decides on their next contentious mechanic, goes to an assembly, exposes its plight and then representatives elected from every Killer region worldwide vote according to the directives issued by their region?
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Yeah becuz remember the test results of no BL the chases reached to not need dh to escape
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"Does it reward failure"
yes. Many will deny it and try to spin 1. getting injured, 2. making a bad play, 3. being mindgamed, 4. then hitting E as a skillful outplay of the 3 prior bad decisions. No perk rewards bad plays more than DH. Maybe self care
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This whole “rewards failure” gripe about Dead Hard and NOED and such is kind of silly. There’s nothing inherently wrong with a perk whose benefit helps you catch up when you’re behind.
The issue with Dead Hard specifically isn’t that it’s used to help get a survivor out of a sticky situation, it’s that it’s too powerful overall since it’s two effects that are both good enough to be perks in their own right combined into a single mega-perk. If the perk is weakened it would still be helping survivors out of trouble, but simply be more in line in overall effectiveness with lots of other perks that also improve chances of escaping. It’s that degree of effectiveness that’s the problem, not the types of situations it’s used in.
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Oh no, he's on to us, guys! Who leaked the existence of the Malicious Union of Ravishing Deathbringers Erasing Rubbish (aka survivors)? Was it the European branch?
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"Against impossible and unbearable odds".... 😂 The absolute dramatics.
If you dislike playing as killer that much, just take a break for a while or something.
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Okay you're being a little dramatic lol.
That being said dead hard is problematic because it basically let's survivors artificially extend chase with no counter play. Anyone who just says "bait it out" I promise never plays killer and doesn't know what they're talking about. You can not counter dead hard for distance despite what some people say and that does extend chases by a lot and is does carry teams of survivors that would not have done as well otherwise.
I don't think it's comparable with NOED either while NOED is problematic in it's own way you find it and it's gone and you're only dealing with it once you have nothing else to do really. Dead Hard you're dealing up to 4 all game and there's not much you can really do about it other than try to anticipate it and take alternate routes accordingly unless ofc they're just DH to a god pallet then you just have deal with getting "outplayed".
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I doubt Sluzzy is creating an alt to troll Survivor mains, thougb Entity knows it's needed. Probably someone who read his recent NOED post and is trying to be clever
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Yeah, bloodlust is there so you can actually have a game, wouldn't be a very successful game if only one survivor looped the killer for 5 minutes and the other 3 were stuck playing hold M1 simulator
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Nah, I didn't mean to imply that this might be Sluzzy - exactly what you said - the copy & paste thing
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Noed rewards the killer because of the survivors failure to do bones yes
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On the Micro level of the chase, Dead Hard does its thing and draws out chases even longer; especially if suvivors chain tiles they couldn't normally.
On the Macro level of the trial, Dead Hard coerces the killer into committing. Most survivors just say "drop the chase and pressure gens," but that becomes pointless when everyone has Dead Hard and all you're doing is letting the survivor who's exhausted recover their Dead Hard. You can't really chase, break a pallet or two, and change targets because Dead Hard also negates dead zones.
It's lose-lose.
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At least self care keeps them occupied
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Who says "drop the chase" because of dead hard? I can understand dropping the chase if you're spending 2 minutes chasing one person which so so so so many killers do, like the majority of killers will hard commit to a chase with someone they haven't even injured, let along facing dead hard.
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I really don't understand why DH is such a huge issue.
I find the actual issue to be deciding to chase someone for 2 minutes or longer when you can see them chain loops, and if you aren't able to bait DH and catch up with BL, you still go for them. Unless you're practicing your own chase/mindgaming skills, then it's a none issue.
Prolonging chases can easily be done by 99-ing Sprint Burst, using a medkit with Styptic/Syringe, or even with Overcome. It's not just DH.
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Ugh here we go again. Killers not admitting they made mistakes and blaming dead hard instead. It’s getting so boring dude
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If you even need to ask, you will never understand the answer.
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It's not as much "rewards failure" as much as "just not very well designed in terms of counter play".
Most things in this game have counter play. Sometimes that counter play is just not well designed.
For Dead Hard, the problem is that the counter play is 50/50 and gets worse the better a survivor is. If you swing immediately, it has invincibility. If you wait to swing, they get close enough to a pallet they can dead hard through it. There's an area in between these where you can wait and a dead hard doesn't get them safely to the pallet, but it's still like a 50/50 at worst. It was badly designed for years, but they fixed Dead Hard by creating server side validation which brought the worst portions of the perk.
Good players with Dead Hard will both be able to run tiles AND Dead Hard at the appropriate time where the killer has to basically guess and, in some loops, just doesn't have an opportunity to counter play it at all. Bad players don't get this benefit because they don't know the proper time to use Dead Hard or they Dead Hard into a wall. The reason it doesn't really reward failure is because it does take some skill to use it in the problematic way and the "rewards failure" part has meaningful counter play. When it's used to reward failure, baiting does work.
The two perks are badly designed for different reasons, but you can also make the argument about NOED too. NOED does have counter play but it's just not well designed. You have to cleanse all 5 totems, without any indicator about what your teammates have done in solo queue, to counter play it? Against a killer who is decent, there's not really a lot of opportunity to waste your time on finding and cleansing 5 totems while your team is presently dying. If you try to cleanse it after the fact, you're on a pretty aggressive timer if you actually want to save your teammate and the killer could have hooked right next to NOED. Often, the best counter play is to just leave and sacrifice your teammate. Sure, counter play exists. It just feels ######### and requires you to do busywork for the possibility that a perk that may not even be there gets countered.
Anyone who plays survivor knows how bad it feels to have half your team die to NOED the same as anyone who plays killer knows how bad it feels to outplay a survivor just to have dead hard completely invalidate your mindgame. That's really just the problem. They're perks where the counter play is weak or ineffective and it just doesn't feel like your own gameplay matters much.
NOED also has the additional effect where I believe it biases MMR to not really work properly at low levels because you can camp a kill or two at the end so easily with it. This causes killers who shouldn't be getting kills (their MMR should go lower) to be counted as "wins" solely because of the perk. That's its own problem and Dead Hard doesn't really have that problem. Sure, Dead Hard will help you survive more often. But it won't clinch survival as much as NOED clinches a kill.
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That's the problem. Dead Hard makes many more chases last that long.
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Thanks sluzzy for that wording. This is just a word for word copy and invert version of their "NOED rewards failure" post.
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You people are unbelievable.
DH does not reward failure. #########? Do you actually know what you need to use DH? Because it’s not just pressing “E”.
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Pick rates show how powerful Dead Hard is. 75% compared to only 50% for Borrowed Time and Decisive Strike.
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Which increases survivor queue times and than survivor's wonder why nobody plays killer!
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Yes, its a very powerful perk because as someone said, it has 2 very good actions in a single slot, Im not denying that, Im just arguing the "IT REWARDS FAILURE!!" outcries and making fun of the systemic bandwagon mentality, people getting their pitchforks against something has been the norm since always, sometimes even for the most pointless reasons ever, when I first started playing Self-Care was the target, it got nerfed and it was a nerf that actually hurt Killers because suddenly everyone rushed gens with Adrenaline, then Adrenaline got targeted and people went after it, they didnt touch it but it was thread after thread about "NERF ADRELALINE IT REWARDS NOT HEALING", then DS "IT REWARDS FAILURE YOU GOT DOWNED!!" then it was BT "IT REWARDS FAILURE YOU GOT HOOKED YOU SHOULD BE DOWNED AGAIN!!" etc etc etc, then once DH gets smashed something else is going to targetd for the choppin bloc. Also DH is one of the strongest Exhaustion perks because Nurse, Blight and Spirit are the top tier Killers, DH is the only one who gives you something against those 3, even the second strongest Exhaustion perk (Sprint Burst) doesnt work because you start running and get a massive headstart... which is cut short by 1 blink, a Blight rush or Yamaoka's haunting, thats why people gravitated so so much towards DH.
I main Myers and Jigsaw, Im perfectly aware of what DH does, sometimes it prolongs a loop, sometimes its used in the middle of nowhere and extends the chase 2 seconds, sometimes the guy runs into a tree, sometimes someone greeds the loop to much and gets stabed.
I also know the perk is getting tweaked in some months and Im perfectly aware we have these kind of threads on a daily basis, do we need 10 threads of the same stuff with the same complains every single day?, especially with the usual "IT REWARDS FAILURE!!" which is a silly argument, I still stand by my opinion the only failures are dying and someone exiting the gates, even if it did reward failure so what? whats the problem with perks helping overcome a mistake?.
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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Yeah, for real.
Devs got so bored that they're literally reworking it - Hopefully whatever they come up with will be exciting enough to wake you up, inside.
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Yeah hopefully the complaining can stop and people start realizing it’s their own bad plays.
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You can always help them out by uploading your own DH Counter Tutorial or some shrekcellent gameplay to set those nubs straight.
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I 4K in most of my games and I get dead hard a lot. Yeah maybe I should start uploading
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Use the Skeleton Chair as an intro if you do.
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Is Dead Hard too strong currently? sure.
Does Dead Hard reward failure? I wouldn't say so. A survivor who is truly caught out of position can dead hard to avoid the hit but will likely go down shortly afterwards because they are out of position. Dead Hards that do actually extend the chase are from smart uses of it.
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Why
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I can't wake up.
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- Bloodlust was introduced when infinites were a thing which isn't on the killer
- It still rewards failure despite this, you aren't supposed to want to greed pallets and vaults, pallets and vaults (more so pallets) ARE the free second chance similar to bloodlust. What I'm hearing this point is "Well people get to play in a form that would usually fail due to the existence of Dead Hard. The killer didn't outplay or catch them because they had a perk that allowed them to use a usually failing strategy." That doesn't make it a good perk. That does not mean it doesn't reward failure. It rewards failure.
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