Remove Grabs on Healthy Survivors

Options
Omans
Omans Member Posts: 1,081
edited June 2022 in Feedback and Suggestions

It is clear that the devs want a higher kill rate across the board.

That can be done in a way that is healthier for game 'fun'.

With the killers getting several basekit buffs this patch, solo survivors needed something. Basically everything except for a laughable 5 second Endurance and Off the Record is a huge nerf to solo survivors who were already at the bottom of the totem pole of DBD "Balance".

A super easy change that hasn't been mentioned much is to remove Grabs on healthy survivors going for hook saves.

Currently hard camping the first hook is the best "strategy" by far. The killer doing that requires at least 2 solo survivors to come save the one on the hook to avoid getting grabbed. The benefit far, far outweighs the cost and effort for these killers. Just remove healthy grabs and the killer, who is hard camping, is still guaranteed the trade, and the solo survivors are allowed to unhook without risk of the game being instantly finished (which it is if the killer gets a grab like that) due to a skilless play by a hard-camping killer.

Where is the drawback? Billy and Bubba would still be able to do their thing, but we know that the devs don't much care about single outliers, as Nurse is still allowed to dominate as she does.

Edit: I feel like I should clarify that grabs on healthy survivors doing gens should absolutely stay in the game, as that is a very skillful play.

Post edited by EQWashu on

Comments

  • Omans
    Omans Member Posts: 1,081
    Options

    This change would help game health so much.

  • CluelessWanderer
    CluelessWanderer Member Posts: 939
    Options

    BHVR only cares about SWF's. They did nothing to help Solo Q's, and as usual, base their "Meta Perk shake up" on the top teeny tiny MMR % which is SWFs vs top Killers.

    The rest of us they think will be happy buying another kawaii loser weeb hat for Feng while being face-camped by Bubba as usual.

  • fulltonon
    fulltonon Member Posts: 5,762
    Options

    I don't think this change actually affect the game that much, hook grabbing doesn't happen that often anyways and it has to happen on top of hard camping killer.

  • Zwergz112
    Zwergz112 Member Posts: 197
    Options

    As long as I can keep grabbing ppl of gens with Bing Bong I wouldn't mind this change at all.

  • Omans
    Omans Member Posts: 1,081
    Options

    Why was this post closed?

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 4,947
    Options

    I dont know ... often hook grabs are the only thing that gives me the chance of a kill in the egc. Classical situation: one on hook, one on the gate, two circling the hook and trying to swoop in for the rescue. If you hit the rescuer, they will complete the unhooking, and BT and the second survivor will gurantee a save escort with prectically now chance to break through. The grab can at least even the situation and make any further attempts extremely risky.

    I mean, how often do you see survivors who say "yeah, that killer is probably super frustrated because we flashlightsaved nearly every pickup. Let him keep that 1k". No, they will always, always, always try to go for the risky save, because of 4e and bragging/clicking/t-bagging rights. Not saying that anyone should roll over and die, but the utter humiliation and total empowerment of the oppositon is far too often the declared target.

    An unhooking grab is a very stressful situation for the killer, but at the very least its preferable to utter dispear.

  • Omans
    Omans Member Posts: 1,081
    Options

    I can see that. Since the devs are altering what is okay/not okay in EGC, why not have healthy hook grabs disabled before the gens are powered, and enabled after.

    Right now it is too easy to get a hook grab, and gives too much benefit by just standing next to a hook at 4/5 gens.

    What the other commenters above don't seem to realize is that it is less about whether or not you get grabbed or not. The fact that the killer is standing there, baiting the hook grab, means that the solo queue survivors must all come to make a save, even though it is a skilless play on the killer's part. Too much reward for absolutely no effort.

    What's funny is that camping first hook and going for the hook grab is the main strategy for killers over on the Korean server at high MMR. Yet the people above think it is rare. Are the servers that different? I don't think so.

  • fulltonon
    fulltonon Member Posts: 5,762
    Options

    Huh? I thought killers are in extreme disadvantage for grab war due to the way it works.

  • IlliterateGenocide
    IlliterateGenocide Member Posts: 5,997
    Options

    With the basekit 2 stacks of STBLF im gonna agree

  • LapisInfernalis
    LapisInfernalis Member Posts: 4,114
    Options

    Better keep attention. Then you don't get grabbed.

  • Omans
    Omans Member Posts: 1,081
    Options

    Unfortunately not. I have thousands of hours in the game right now.

    If I am playing killer I try not to do grab wars because they feel so cheap, but sometimes a survivor will run straight to the hook to unhook right as I reach the hook myself, and it is extremely easy to get that grab if the survivor is alone. So much so, that most killers on the Korean server do that a lot of the time on first hook to guarantee an easier game. It is very common.

    If I am playing survivor, it is very common if I go in for the save for the killer to always be right there waiting for one survivor to do a grab war. It is better to leave that survivor to get to second stage because solo queue survivors are not organized enough to deal with it.

  • Neency
    Neency Member Posts: 24
    edited June 2022
    Options

    Theres a lot of morons here that say that "hook grabs are rare anyway". Well, thats how killing on first hook works and why its a problem. Nobody would go for a play that gets them grabbed and the killer gets to watch the first surv downed die. If healthy grabs were impossible, a healthy surv could at least TRY to TRADE. People could actually do something other than watch their mate die in the first 3 Minutes or throw the game by rushing in with 2-3 people.

    I'd appreciate it if killers actually had to work or have skill to make survivors struggle but every ape can kill by playing the way thats mainstream right now

  • Alen_Starkly
    Alen_Starkly Member Posts: 1,077
    Options

    YES!! I agree. Please remove hook grabs completely! I'd say even on injured survivors, 'cause M1 will down them anyway. Hook grabs just encourage camping, and you (BHVR) said that you wanted to reduce camping.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 4,947
    Options

    Fair assessment. By all means, if BHVR can solve the issue in a satisfying manner, please go ahead. I can see why some people would think that it is a cheap tactic, especially if some killer would use it as their main tactic from the very beginning.

    Its funny how BHVR adresses that camping and tunneling is a big problem, that they want to solve, yet in their big update not one sliver is done in order to fight camping ^^ Thats my only real critic of the balance update, but sadly a rather glaring one.

    I would wish for some basekit ability that empoweres killers in some way, if they roam far away from hooks, something like Devour Hope, mechanic wise, but obviously not throwing out exposed and mori, but maybe regress or block all gens for a short while, each time the killer is at least 24m away when an unhooking happens. Something that will incentivice the killer to play this playstyle, without potentially shooting oneself in the foot.

  • fulltonon
    fulltonon Member Posts: 5,762
    Options

    Uhm, I never managed to catch tapping survivors though, is there some kind of magic or will you just wait for REAL unhook?

    I definitely don't say "extremely" easy as if you fail ONCE they can trade for free, while survivors can tap any amount of time they want to bait hit.

  • ad19970
    ad19970 Member Posts: 6,347
    Options

    With the upcoming changes, that wouldn't even be enough. They also 100% have to increase the time a survivor can survive on the hook, and by a noticeable amount.

  • Bran
    Bran Member Posts: 2,087
    Options

    No.

  • Omans
    Omans Member Posts: 1,081
    Options

    The majority of survivors have a rhythm of tapping that they do, so look for that and it should be quite easy to time it right.

    If you aren't confident enough to do that yet, you can simply wait them out, especially if the timer to second hook is getting closer. The survivor will keep tapping, and all you have to do is wait. The survivor knows you are the one in control of that situation, so you can just wait until struggle phase. If they hold for too long, just grab then. It is a rather long unhook animation, after all.

    One survivor trying to unhook with the killer next to them is always in the killer's advantage.

    Great reasoning. It's like some of these players aren't even interested in a more balanced game for ALL sides.

  • Bran
    Bran Member Posts: 2,087
    Options

    The reasoning is pretty simple. What's the need? Even if I'm not camping, they'd just get free unsafe unhooks.

  • Omans
    Omans Member Posts: 1,081
    Options

    SWF players benefit regardless of whether the killer is camping or not. They can organize a safe unhook.

    Solo players can not do that if the killer is playing in the way described above.

    However, with this change the killer still benefits (through a trade, or even hit and grab with the new quicker hit recovery), but it is through skill rather than just sitting at the hook waiting.

    Also, it is not "free" or "unsafe" for the survivor. They must make a trade in solo queue.

  • Bran
    Bran Member Posts: 2,087
    Options

    Thing is, I don't wanna hit the grabbing survivor just because they are healthy, I want to grab them and keep the guy hooked. I'd really rather not have a trade if I can avoid it

  • Risky_Biscuit
    Risky_Biscuit Member Posts: 95
    Options

    Hook grabs are fine. Don't want to get hook grabbed ? Don't play super altruistic and try to get unhooks in the killer's face. Simple.

  • Ripley
    Ripley Member Posts: 866
    Options

    Grabbing survivors off gens is not skillful. There is literally no skill involved if a survivor just ignores you.

  • Risky_Biscuit
    Risky_Biscuit Member Posts: 95
    Options

    There's no skill in turning your camera as survivor to check your surroundings either. Grabs are nearly completely avoidable by simply looking around while you're on a gen. Didn't bother to look around ? Get grabbed. Completely deserved.

    Only time this doesn't happen is with oblivious and undetectable statuses.

  • RpTheHotrod
    RpTheHotrod Member Posts: 1,724
    Options

    From unhooks, maybe, but if you're caught off guard doing a gen, you absolutely should be punished.

  • RpTheHotrod
    RpTheHotrod Member Posts: 1,724
    Options

    It's not about being skillful, it's about punishing lazy and oblivious survivors. Also, stealth killers somewhat depend on the ability to grab off gens.

  • Omans
    Omans Member Posts: 1,081
    Options

    And that is exactly the kind of skilless play that needs to be stamped out.

    That sort of play should not be rewarded more than consistently winning chases. You don't deserve to win the game simply because you stood there.

  • Bran
    Bran Member Posts: 2,087
    Options

    And survivors don't deserve a free unhook because their healthy

  • Omans
    Omans Member Posts: 1,081
    Options

    By standing still and not moving the killer controls two hook states (of the survivor on the hook) and two health states (of the survivor trying to save). How is this healthy against solo queue?

    Doing nothing should not be the best available strategy.

    I think you don't know what free means, as well...it is not a free unhook. The unhooker is choosing to rely on solo queue team members to come save them, with no guarantee that first hook won't be their last, because if you were camping that first hook there is a good chance you will be camping the next one, too.

    Removing hook grabs on healthy survivors has no negative impact on killers who don't spend most of their time camping. The devs themselves said they want to reduce the amount of camping and tunneling.

    Lastly, I would say that if you wanted to protect that hook so much, you would have injured the other survivors as well, so they wouldn't be tempted to go for the save. No? Too busy camping the hook? Then you don't deserve a free 2nd stage.

  • Underdawg
    Underdawg Member Posts: 193
    Options

    Anything that disincentivizes camping is a healthy change to this game. Especially with the change coming to successful hit cooldowns, unhooking against camping killers will be more difficult. Healthy grabs on unhooking should be removed - except during EGC (or once all 5 gens are done) as at this point, the only task the killers have are securing those last kills.

  • Bran
    Bran Member Posts: 2,087
    Options

    As a killer main I don't concern myself whether it's a solo or a swf. If they run me towards that hooked survivor, I don't want to have to let the person get unhooked just because the other is healthy. If I can grab them and prevent the unhook altogether, that's best case.

    Even if I'm camping, the same applies. They shouldn't get a free unhook because they are healthy.

  • Mat_Sella
    Mat_Sella Member Posts: 3,545
    Options

    you dont deserve to unhook for free.

    Either perform the save properly, or dont perform the save at all.

  • Omans
    Omans Member Posts: 1,081
    Options

    I think these killer-only players don't understand what "free" means...

    It is not free. You get the trade. That is a "free" hook to the killer player for doing nothing but standing and waiting.

    If you want a "free" second state for the hooked survivor you should have to work for it, not just sit there and expect it.

  • Dream_Whisper
    Dream_Whisper Member Posts: 722
    Options

    I don't think so, getting regular grabs is tricky when Survivors can bait the unhook and force the killer to damage the Survivor. They can do the same with exit gates and Generators, fake the actions in less then a second or tapping it, and force the killer to m1.

    I say make hook grabs more possible, so that the other Survivors can make the saves. How to do that... if the killer is standing right next to the Hook Survivor ans you happen to be the same proximity of the unhooked. The Killer automatically gets a free grab, regardless if you did no action or tap the unhook button quickly. It may not be good if you are the last two Survivors, but if you have friends going for a hook Save together; letting the killer get the free grab opens up a good opportunity for the other teammates to get a free save, while you "trade" your life for the hook teammates.

  • KateDunson
    KateDunson Member Posts: 714
    Options

    Their statement to fix camping was already laughable and on top of that you expect them to program something like that? Only for hooks? Looks like something we will never see to me

  • Omans
    Omans Member Posts: 1,081
    Options

    I'm of two minds about the devs. They tend to not make the right balance choice until years after the change should have been made, but they have been slightly trending in the right direction, I think. Nerfing keys and moris was a big one in the right direction. Years late, of course, but the right decision nonetheless.

    I have a feeling this change will happen eventually, but it might not be for a few years, which is quite unfortunate. They talk about wanting to lessen the gap between SWF and solo. This would absolutely do that. An SWF has no problems making a hook save. Solos do, and camping is such a strong, skilless strategy against solos that something must be done about it at some point.

    As for the ease of changing it, I think it shouldn't be too hard? They already differentiate between healthy and injured grabs at windows and pallets. It is pretty much the same idea. The actual change wouldn't take too much effort. But I have a feeling they would rather artificially increase kill rates rather than making the game fun for both sides.