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Onryo buffs
It's now widely regarded that Onryo is a weak killer. Her teleport is patchy at best, worse than both Freddy and Dredge, and her condemn power is almost non-existent, survivors simply never reach full condemned, and they remove your teleport power in the process. So she's in dire need of some kind of buffs.
Personally I don't think the buffs should be to her teleporting, as that would just make her more similar to Freddy/Dredge. Instead, capitalise on her unique powers, Condemn and Demanifest.
- Buff the rate at which Condemnation is gained. Somewhere around 20%-25%, via various means (whether it's passive or direct actions) would be good enough.
- When a survivor becomes fully Condemned, if they come within 12m of a TV for more than say 4 seconds, that TV turns on.
- While Demanifested, the Onryo can walk through dropped pallets and window vaults. Doing so slows the Onryo down to 95% (3.8m/s) for 2 seconds.
With a buff to the rate of Condemnation, this power finally becomes a significant threat. However there's still a large chance that it happens across the map, nowhere near any TVs. This turns the survivors counter on it's head, first they want to rush to a TV to reduce their Condemn stacks, but if they're too late, now they need to avoid TV's to prevent you from teleporting to them.
The pallet phasing would give her a true anti-loop power, and a unique one at that. At window vaults it would merely equate to a slightly faster vault, not a huge benefit, similar in strength to Freddy's dream snares, but at pallets it would essentially turn those pallets into normal window vaults, breaking up the loop in a novel way.
Comments
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I agree with this entirely, except I'd much rather an entire rework on the condemnation part of onion (I just refer to onryo as the onion)
The main issue with onion is simple, theres a laughably easy way to make sure onion never even starts any sort of condemnation: literally ignore the ability. TV's imo are sorta also laughable, unless on a map like midwich, I never have any reason to ever materialize with and TV. The only encouragement is getting a hook and traversing to whatever TV is closest to the gen you wanna check out. Theres rarely any time where im genuinely using the TVs as a way to predict chase movement and get satisfying reads, theres no satisfaction in onion besides basic movement every killer can do. I literally forgot you could condemn a survivor because literally nobody ever picks up the tapes, and why would you? It's optional, and you actively hurt yourself by picking them up lol.
I would edit some of these buffs though, cus its seriously such a massive shame onions low on the tier list. She brings a ton of potential with the tools already handed to her, being able to completely rid her terror radius while being basically completely actionable is something that can be extremely dangerous already, if you've ever played/played against a myres that purposely runs a no-radius build, you'll understand the power this brings. Being the closest thing to invisible while removing your radius gives you a reason to demanifest and manifest often, its the only reason you would ever use onion over any killer. Why am I bringing this up? Simply to show a good ability needs benefits to be good, and its important to understand the balance you need to bring too. The Executioner has Rites of Judgment & Punishment of the Damned, an ability and secondary that was designed beautifully. The way hes designed gives you reason to use both RoJ and PTD, one is a high risk high reward ability while the other has a variety of uses (IE: The Cage, Final Judgment, Location, etc). The reason I compare these too is because the executioner is an amazing example of reward and balance done perfectly. Hes a killer with a satisfying skill & skill ceiling, with benefits and a learning curve in using his abilities to your advantage and capitalizing off of trial and error. The onion is extremely disappointing in this regard, demanifesting is the only good thing onion brings to the table. "But she has a free mori!", yes my friend, a free mori she will never obtain unless the player has never seen onion. Covering the comparison (ik its a bit lengthy, but kinda a big reason I made this acc lmao), I wanna talk about the buffs.
Seraphor, you're spot on capitalizing on Comdemn and Demanifest, every killer should have reliable skills they can use and work around to achieve some sort of use. A big issue with that obv is that almost every game will NEVER result in any survivor getting relatively close to being condemned, unless you run the add-on "Tape Editing Deck". This forces every survivor to start a trial with a VHS tape, and this leads to my first big reason of a buff.
- Scrap the Tape Editing Deck add-on, make it a feature of The Onryo.
Seriously, this is the only way you'll ever even think about getting close to having a survivor condemned. VHS tapes are laughable to survivors as TVs really dont pose much of a threat. "But she can teleport through them and get a speed boost", the risk reward of being condemned isnt enough to warrant picking up a VHS tape, on top of good onion mains being able to understand once a TV disappears, your general location is already revealed. So why would you pick up a VHS tape, only to possibly become condemned and reveal your location after using it? See what I mean, it's a good idea on paper, but the TVs give zero map pressure nor reason to ever act on them, and serve more a niche option to gen control. Very rarely do I see and find myself using TVs as a unique mix-up option, hell even as a way to keep gen control, due to the fact that TV spawns really arent the best either. This brings me to a second buff:
- (but actually 2, ty dbd forums) TVs actively give progress on being condemned to survivors while on
TVs are seriously so laughably useless to survivors its not even funny, theres such easy counterplay to them without using tapes that theres really no reason to care enough about them. How do you fix this? Well first of all, lets look at the movie, where watching the tape gives you 7 days to live. Why is it that the TVs being on do nothing then?? The premise of the movie was never "thou who holds the tapes shall become a great disgrace", it was watching the tape. It doesn't make any sense why TVs that are on do nothing passively, and because of this, TVs serve no purpose in pressure or reason to even pay attention to them. Give the survivors a reason to care! Being condemned is an extremely scary thing, but theres never a time its gonna happen since all they have to do is completely ignore the TVs. Honestly I really feel this needs to be a rework, anybody who walks near a TV should begin the condemnation process passively, I really cant even fathom why this design choice was chosen, its terrible. This is also something I just found out in a custom game, so I'll mention it now:
- (but actually 3 lol) REMOVE THE STOPPED CONDEMNED TIMER
Just in-case anybody reading this didn't know, getting downed stops the condemned timer, and for obvious reasons. Those being simply to make it so an onion cant down a survivor in process of being condemned and sit there while they patiently wait for their mori. Sounds like a pretty reasonable balance right? Well did you know that the timer for being condemned is paused if you're within onions terror radius. Please god I really hope somebody corrects me on this if im wrong, but testing it on my own and getting confirmation, I sat with a player in a custom game WHILE WRITING THIS, and the condemned timer didn't move at all. It only began to resume once she was out of my terror radius, thats absolutely ridiculous. How the ######### are you supposed to condemn survivors??? Avoid them and hope they forget about their tape??? I only just now found this out, and I'm genuinely so taken back by it, what dev decided to do that??? Literally what to these tapes even do anymore, Condemned is seriously that hard to get to.
I'll take the rest to cover the offered buffs OP mentioned:
- (but actually 4 haha lmao lol xd) When a survivor becomes fully Condemned, if they come within 12m of a TV, that TV instantly turns on.
This is an absolutely brilliant idea, and I'm not just saying that to flatter the OP. This is a great way to give the Onion a good way to EFFICIENTLY use TVs. Again, the TV spawns are half garbage half not. Im serious about saying they're garbage too, go to haddonfield for example. Theres literally a TV that can spawn all the way to a middle wall, away from every gen and exit gate. When the hell am I ever gonna use that??? It would literally slow me down more than help me, but if we had this brilliant idea as a means of counterplay, it would be a lovely TV to have. Anybody that knows onion knows the process (if you're dumb enough to comply to it): tape insert tv bazinga L onion. Again, theres no reason to ever pick up a VHS tbh, and if we add the buffs listed, this becomes a lovely way to add some map awareness skill. Suddenly without your knowledge, you pass a TV and turn it on, noticing that as the Onion is a risky move to take. Do you project to the TV, even though it could possibly just have turned on after its timer reset? Or was it a condemned survivor walking past the TV? Giving you these options is what makes choosing the right option so satisfying, as it rewards players going off of current knowledge and presenting them with high risk-high reward scenarios. This is seriously the best buff I've heard and would be lovely if implemented, but obviously implemented in a stage where players have chance of being condemned.
- (but actually 5 oaiwerhnfoiaiwnef) Buff the rate at which Condemnation is gained. Somewhere around 20%-25%, via various means (whether it's passive or direct actions) would be good enough.
I know I skipped this one, but thats solely because the one above was seriously that eye-catching. This is a DIRE need, getting to the process of being condemned is ALREADY hard enough, then you're telling me the timer stops anytime they're so much as within my terror radius??? ON TOP OF THAT, you literally have enough time to do all 5 gens with your team, open exit gate and leave before you would EVER be close to being condemned, especially since its seriously THAT easy to get rid of. is this a joke. Like im serious, were the devs laughing while making this killer, cus its seriously laughable. I dont need to elaborate on this, like its not even a buff that would break anything, its literally just a balance buff lmao.
- (but actually 6 am i right) While Demanifested, the Onryo can walk through dropped pallets and window vaults. Doing so slows the Onryo down to 95% (3.8m/s) for 2 seconds.
This is the one I wanna give a bit of criticism on, I heavily disagree. For context, I main Nurse, Pyramid Head and Spirit, and two of those three being basically solely immune to pallets and vaults. Giving a killer thats essentially immune to pallets/vaults WHILE undetectable would be absolutely broken, even if slowed down 95% (which I dont quite get the math here, being slowed 100% would mean shes stationary, so shes going slower than vaulting/breaking the pallet..?). Every other killer (besides the two I listed lmao) basically has to deal with pallets and vaults. Killers like the Huntress dont need to deal with them, but her ability allows her to play around pallets and vaults, and theres a reason it works. Letting the onion walk through pallets and vaults simply because shes "demanifested" is a (sorry OP) really bad idea. That crosses the line of being balanced to broken, even with the slowdown. Remember, we're trying to balance her, not bust her. Get her to a point where her ability is both skill based and useful, and not "watch survivors ignore tapes simulator".
I know this was long, and anybody reading this (god help your soul), I really encourage you to reply to this, upvote it, etc., especially to my remarks since I'd love to know what people would think about this. The onion isn't low tier because of her ability, shes low tier because of the way BHVR executed the idea. Please do her justice (and point out any flaws that could come with these buffs), sorry for the long read and reply but please buff her :(
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Thanks for the reply.
I'm still not sure why you think being able to phase through pallets is a bad idea.
For one you seem confused on the maths.
100% is survivor sprint speed, 4m/s.
95% is 3.8m/s, roughly the speed of Nurse.
This is just to make it so you're not completely ignoring a pallet, and you need to use the "phase through a pallet" in a smart way, because simply following the survivor in a perfect loop, phasing after they vault, won't allow you to catch up very fast if at all.
And considering there are other killers that ignore pallets; Nurse, Huntress, Trickster, Pyramid head, Nemesis, Hag, Blight, Billy, Bubba, Demo, all in their own unique ways, this is not broken.
Remember you need to hold down the manifest button to attack, if you demanifest to phase through a pallet, you're giving up several seconds in which you're unable to attack. It's kinda similar to Doctor denying a pallet drop, you slow and and cant attack while you're shocking a survivor. Similar mechanic, only it applies to already dropped pallets instead.
If a survivor sees an 'Onion' demanifesting before a pallet, they have the option to abandon that loop, just like any other killers anti-loop skill.
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I also don't think walking through pallets is an interesting idea. It's gotta be slow enough that survivors have counterplay yet fast enough to be useful. Which is impossible. It'll either be oppressive or pointless.
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This sort of phasing would only be useful mid-chase if she automatically Manifested immediately after phasing through the pallet or could walk through the pallet while in the process of Manifest so that she becomes fully Manifested exactly as she finishes passing through it. That way should could attack the instant she’s on the other side, before the survivor could react to vault back over again. If she couldn’t start Manifesting until after walking through a pallet then the survivor could easily revault the pallet the moment she starts walking through it and Sadako would be back to square one.
It’s hard to say how this ability would play out if she could in principle be Manifested immediately after walking through a pallet. It would certainly be interesting though.
On a side note I don’t think Sadako is as bad as some people believe, I put her at 2/5 stars on par with Wraith. Which is “ok”. I wouldn’t turn down a buff for her but if you play a good macro game and take advantage of slugging for pressure she’s basically fine.
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Why not give the onryo som addons for her Demanifested state, like a slight movement speed increes or a addon alla Wraith that Manifests her after walking trought a palet, door or window.
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