Tunneling and camping have gone out of control

It originally was, but emergent gameplay tossed that out of the window. How are you going to hide against a Doctor, or Victor? The game has very clearly moved on from that style.

All right, so we've already established that being spotted isn't necessarily the survivor's fault, but how are you going to move away from that gen fast enough without running and leaving a glowing red trail pointing out your location?

You said 'sweaty', not 'BMing'. And what do you propose is done about BMing survivors? Take away the ability to crouch? Or just laser focus on that last line of yours and make sure no survivors (including the perfectly fair ones) can ever win, so you don't have to deal with someone squatting at the exit gate?

Because I can tell you that that would be -really- bad for the game.

The myth that you have to camp and tunnel to win is a lie. You have to get good just like survivors do. Killers act like survivor is this cakewalk but no one takes into consideration you have to master so much mechanical skill, memorize counters to dozens of different killers and their addons and perks, and memorize a couple dozen different maps and their common tile spawns and how to play them correctly. It's a high skill ceiling and it turns most people off from the game.

Killer used to be the same way. You had to learn to master your power and abilities, memorize map tiles and how to run them, learn how to keep track of survivors whereabouts and activities across the map, how to mind game at loops and when not to, how to moonwalk and hide your red stain. You had to learn how to cleverly synergize perks and addons.

Killers who say you have to camp and tunnel just want easy wins and have no interest in mastering any skill. Killers who say that depending on the context it makes sense to occasionally tunnel/camp are the ogs who know how to play or at least have some level of interest in becoming good.

It's funny how people claim you need to camp and tunnel every game if you want to win. That's just not true. Maybe if you want to win consistently. But it's funny how we tell survivors not to expect an escape every match, but don't tell killers not to expect a 3k+ every match.

What kind of reward are you talking about? Because if it’s more BP I doubt it’s enough to make people stop camping/tunnelling.

Clearly the devs and anyone with a shred of empathy for survivors does not want the killer to be camping at 5 gens or tunnelling the first person hooked to death. The dilemma arises when people start talking about ways to outright remove the option to utilise these tactics at any point.

For example, let’s say a survivor gets hooked and is now on second stage. Importantly for this hypothetical, they’re inside the killers 3 Gen zone and there’s another Gen the other side of the map which the killer is tactically deciding to give up. In what way can the devs make it so that proxy camping/Gen patrolling isn’t the correct play in that situation? Making hooks function like Cage of Atonement? Pausing the hook timer if the killer is nearby?

On a similar note, if the killer somehow gets two people hooked close together or potentially down in the basement, why should they leave the area? Because it’s not “fun” gameplay? I mean I guess winning shouldn’t be the be all and end all for whether someone enjoys the game but people want to win and will go for optimal over fun in order to do so. And unfortunately for the other side that may not be the most enjoyable thing. I agree with you that the best the devs can do is make it so these tactics aren’t game winning but they still need to leave these decisions up to the killer and make them much less appealing.

Played survivor yesterday, in about 10 games, there were 3 that hard tunneled, which is annoying but not significantly worse than pre-update in my experience.

(I play at a low-ish mmr, I'm not very good at survivor yet but not a complete newbie either)

As for playing killer, I heard the queue times were terrible right now so I haven't played that role since the update.

I don't understand either the fun of tunneling. My most fun games are either monkeying around with survivors as Legion (a LOT of survivors DC when they see Legion, so I'm often friendly with the others if they're willing to play along) or serious games with Hag where I go out of my way to not tunnel (especially the occasional poor confused unhooked who has obviously never played against Hag before and somehow triggers half of my traps in the area, which always makes me laugh).

I've seen some killers justify early game tunneling like "but they brought [this] item !" (which is clearly a personnal attack against them and not just using an item from the game). I mean, if you see something you don't like in the lobby, just dodge. As a Hag player, if I see three flashlights, you bet I'm waiting some more for a match-up that won't counter me entirely. There's no sense going into a match that you know will make you angry and frustrated.

Side note nemesis players are usually the ones tunneling and camping most of my games. Tho i think thats more to do with his power requiring 3 hits to down.

Of course it would, its a hyperbolic projection you made trying to make me sound like a lunatic. All i'm trying to do is get you to understand a different mindset.

I'm not really surprised. Almost everything considered damning or 'big' in terms of an update was a nerf to survivors. I mean, they even nerfed DS which was perfectly fine, a 5 second stun isn't going to stop a tunnel most likely but it damn well will give you some breathing room and buy time for your team. They went even further by making it completely useless at end-game which is when DS was particularly so useful for. There's no incentive to bring it anymore.

Dead Hard isn't the saving grace it once was. Although I agree with the nerf, I think 'timing' it against high MMR killers is incredibly hard as a lot of them know that survivors STILL bring it and get extremely close to you so that their weapon swing is nearly impossible to see coming since its so quick and the animation is harder to see since they're hugging you.

The scary thing is they pushed this patch through thinking everything would be okay or certain situations would be improved upon but all they did was make it much worse.

Yeah, freeze tag allows them to glue them to the ground -after- tagging. Stop misrepresenting.

You bring up Tag: "You're not supposed to be caught in Tag either, but if it doesn't happen, you don't really have a game"

To which I reply that Tag wouldn't work if the tagger can just glue people down.

And your response is to bring up freeze tag. Where you get frozen -AFTER- getting tagged. That part of the game doesn't interfere with the 'don't get caught' part, and you know it.

Do you have an actual argument or are you just gonna keep sticking your head in the sand?

Did you ever get four people all avoiding the killer, none of them being spotted once, against a Doctor or someone with aura reading perks?

YOU say the game is hide and seek.

How do you play hide and seek against a Doctor who isn't hardcore throwing?