New post about reducing tunneling/camping (Killer suggestion)
TLDR: I had an alternative to end tunneling, by the end of it I thought of an alternative that I felt would be better based on criticism of my original idea.
So: bloodlust isn't that useful to stop tunneling, however if the killer has less incentive to camp they will be less likely to tunnel. They are related after all.
I came up with this: Whenever within 15-20 meters (I'm not sure what would be a good max but I know that putting it a little less than the requirement of devour hope would be a good idea) of a hooked survivor, progress for ALL hooked survivors is halved. If you're catching a survivor near a hook it isn't too bad because they would be staying near an area meaning you could run them down, but if you are staying there it would increase the time it takes to reach hook state 2 by double the time ( 2 minutes essentially) which means survivors would be able to get at least 1 generator done assuming there is 1 on a generator not failing skillchecks and without a repair bonus of any kind (it takes 90 seconds to repair a generator which is 30 seconds less than it would take in this theoretical system to reach the skill check portion of the hook). Some would argue that thanatophobia would somewhat reduce the effectiveness, but as long as you are healing then it would mean they for a majority of the time only have a 5.5% reduction while they camp due to the hooked person, which should still be enough time to finish a generator (more if multiple surivors are repairing either on the same gen or multiple).
basically: by reducing the time it takes for hook regression to happen by half while a killer is even remotely close to the hook, it gives survivors more time to repair gens and makes it a losing battle for killer if they camp, without punishing those who don't.
( I am against this next part but I feel there will be someone saying this is too easily abused and so I want to address that concept) If some people think this is too much we could give a minor speed boost after hooking someone so the killer could get away from the hook faster or to quickly reach and down/injure a survivor trying to trick them into staying nearby. It should be of note that the time increase wouldn't harm these situations too much since hooking the person a second time would still put them in the second hook state, meaning someone making a risky play to save a survivor would just be risking reducing the amount of hooks the person has left. This would incentivise survivors to be careful when trying to unhook rather than to go in without a plan, while also giving killer incentive for leaving hook and punishment for not doing so.
Comments
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Uninspired generic talked to death suggestion, maybe do some research on what has been said before.
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Survivors would just abuse it by looping by the hook
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Wouldn't the speed boost help with that? YOu could quickly get to a survivor if the boost was enough, and once again you could simply let them unhook. The hook isn't very big it's not exactly a simple thing to 'loop the hook' so you would be relying on nearby objects.
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No offense, but you literally on your last posst advocated camping. I'm pretty sure you aren't the type of person I'm suggesting this to. You are the problem I am bringing a solution to get rid of.
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I for one am not the problem, I play to win and for fun. Does this mean at some point in some matches I will camp most definitely, because it simply is at those times the correct play. If you would actually read through my history there is more nuance than what you protray.
I don't have an issue with wanting to address camping or tunneling for that matter which you don't actually touch upon. Yet nothing of your suggestion is new, innovation or address any of the concerns raised or understands the nuance of when it is a good time to camp and when it isn't. From someone that actually does utilize the tactic... Your suggestion would do nothing to change the situations in which I camp, as it is a tactical choice that isn't based on how long it lasts but the location and premise around it. It isn't the face camp at 5 gens with a basement bubba tactic that I utilize there is actually strategy in how I play and based on the survivors I face.
Attacking the players rather than trying to understand the game design behind it and what it offers, just shows that not only are you suggesting an unoriginal idea but also your lack of understanding of the game itself. Blame the players all you want, but it is just the game. The fact that you even say, just let them unhook just shows how little you understand the mechanic and how pressure is created by killers.
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Ok then, name some suggestions that would actually deter you from camping. I'm perfectly accepting criticism as long as someone is willing to give an alternative and be respectful about it. My thought process is that picking an area a little less than devour hope would somewhat force killers to actually leave the area. However if that is a problem there could be added reasons why survivors shouldn't just go in immediately without worry to the killer seeing them. I haven't seen the other suggestions, I admit but I'd rather talk about the probolems that alot of people feel need solving. I want survivors to have fun like I do when I play the game, and trying to find solutions to keep people from easily camping out someone is a step towards that. I know you can't remove camping completely but from what I've heard (and experienced, to a much lesser extent) the camping problem has gotten worse with the update and needs something done to curb the increase.
TLDR: My solutions may not be perfect, but I'm trying. If you think it's a bad idea, I would be more than happy to hear what you think would help curb the amount of camping in the game.
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Well, you here already bring up one point that people overlook what are survivors doing. A very common occurance is that they don't worry about the killer spotting them near the hook, frankly sometimes it is impossible to even turn your back before the first one runs in... It is the job of the killer to not give away all the pressure they created in the last min of chasing the person. If they leave and haven't found anyone yet and the save happens nearby, it is logical to head back to guaranteed survivors location. Location is also a key factor, if the hook is done in a tactical spot in the middle of a 3 gen for instance? Why would the killer leave that area?
For a vast majority of cases on when it is smart to camp, is because it simply places more pressure on survivors. Most of these factors are even based on the survivors own choices on a macro level. Yet somehow that is all the killers fault?
Expanding the time on hook in an area means if the survivor loops you in said area they get the benefit of an additional hook stage for the other 2 without actually using up a hookstage. Also, makes saving the player more dangerous for anyone else and promotes letting them dangle there... Doesn't sound beneficial for either party.
You care for the fun of the survivors, but ignore the fun of the killer. How pressure is generated, how it is removed by survivors and the back and forth there.
Want to have less camping, make the good choices as survivors to put pressure on the killer by doing gens and not going for instant saves. Make sure to break up 3 gens and the likes. Often overlooked part of the effectiveness of camping is the role the survivors play and is why solo queue needs the indicators they announced sooner than later so people can make better informed choices.
Now with the additional time on gens simply make the hook times a tad longer in general no requirements like 65 or 75 seconds, as that balance has been offset in favor of camping while it wasn't needed so that status quo should be rectified in my view.
Want to make it less appealing to camp, the carrot approach would be more effective. Make it more beneficial to leave, provide a buff if out of range, etc. Look at devour hope as a prime example of a perk that really promotes not to camp, as it provides something beneficial for going away. BBQ promotes leaving by giving you information on where a new target can be found, etc. Give people a reason to leave, make it worthwhile to do so. People play to win and will as a result play based on risk and reward.
This will not deter the basement dwellers, but nothing really will.
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Ok yeah, I agree a beneficial approach would be better, however I feel carrot AND stick work best. I find survivors going for the unhook while killer is around tend to get killed, which is why I proposed a speed buff. If you can hit a survivor before you hook, than getting them again afterwards will be a piece of cake with a speed buff. Granted I should have specified that. When I imagine the speed buff I'm talking on the level of the old bloodlust (1.2 m/s for around 4-6 seconds). It would both help killer close the distance on obvious targets near hook while also letting them have the option to move on from hook faster. I really like Devour Hope for the speed boost (and the fact it incentivizes not camping, but there should be base kit incentives not to do that, not soley dependant on a build as that makes you give up other options just to let try and let others have fun at potentially your expense) and feel something similar but for the purposes of moving on from hook and far more immediate (because I think the 10 second wait time for devour hope is kinda dumb) would be great. Devour hope works as a bandage solutoon, however it requires you to go out of your way to let people get unhooked before you get the benefits that a base kit immediate speed boost after hook would provide. The reason why I suggested nerfing the entity timer while near hook was more because outside of niche situations hooking a person and camping will almost always be better because the time to get them to the next hook state will be faster than doing 1 gen. Sure, if survivors are doing a gen each and getting to those gens as fast as possible this is a downside- but very often survivors might not know where the gen is or might try to work together to finish a single gen faster (not even considering failed skill checks or debuffs from gen regression and such).
TLDR: you have a point and there should be a significant reason to WANT to not camp, and If I had described the speed boost I thought of in depth it might have sounded somewhat more enticing. But overall I feel there should be a disencintive to camp as outside of a near perfect scenario for survivors camping will vastly improve the chance to win with little effort. This normally would be managable but with how easy it is to win as a killer now that's making it miserable for survivors.
I'd like to apologize if I came off as rude I'm just really frustrated because I want survivors to enjoy the game as much as I do so queue times stop being so awful and I can enjoy the game without feeling like I'm ruining someone else's day.
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The issue with punishment of being near a hook, is that survivors can abuse it. They are near the hook, so now you either have to willfully give them the free unhook or eat the punishment. Making a check around that would then create a game of chicken near the edge, as the killer should position themselves between the hooked and the blatant obvious unhooker, etc.
Also, you're miscalculating the time to camp a hook stage and gen progress by a mile. Calculations between efficient time usage is not one on one between killers and survivors. The 60 seconds the person is on hook, means they occupy the killer for that time and that means 60x3 is 180 aka 2 full gens worth of progress that can be made. Is it all on a single gen no, but that is not relevant. The survivors have 8 total of these stages before some dies if they utilize them all!
Take your solution: 60 becomes 120, but only 2 survivors work on gens as someone runs the killer near the hook. Meaning 120*2= 240 seconds of progress. So, now it is more beneficial it loop them around the hook instead of saving? You don't chase them, instant unhook... Killers would lose regardless and it isn't going to fix anything.
All these calculations are also not considering the time it took to down the survivor and hook them. Yet for argument sake I will even that out with survivors getting to gens, going for the save, etc also not being accounted for. While I am still of opinion they should increase it slightly per stage.
Promotion of proper survivor teamwork is a far more efficient means of punishment than basing it off the killer. Give them the information to know who is on gens, what people are doing and solo survivors can start also doing the correct counter without relying on kindred. Like SWF can counter camping, not necessarily with 100% rates it are the solos that really struggle.
Post edited by Kalinikta on0 -
I like the idea, but how exactly would it be implemented? I imagine anytime you aren't in 'chase' or hitting someone while near a hook would be a good place to start, and then if you don't move a certain distance (namely around the size of basement) in a certain amount of time would also be a potential trigger for point reduction.
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I would say the no point penalty for hooking a previously hooked person might be a bit much. If only because I've been in situations where I've ONLY had the option to get the person who was unhooked even when I wanted to go for the person who did the rescue. Sometimes a situation like tunneling comes up and you can't do much to stop it because it's your only option. Now that being said If the timer for the unhooked person was around 30-40 seconds then I would be more inclined to say yes.
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