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otz video about the nurse. opinions?
Comments
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I get the argument he's making, but it isn't being conveyed very well. You can't "disprove" the argument about her strength coming from ignoring certain mechanics by trying to use Dull Bracelet and Nit Comb since those addons severely impact her basekit. However, he is correct in that while she ignores pallets and windows, there are certain challenges other killers are less impacted by such as deadzones (I won't include edge mapping because that can cost non mobility killers key gens). Ultimately he's making the point that nurses power doesn't have sufficient downsides for it's strength and that's something I'd agree with. The "downtime" on Nurse isn't really that big downside because even from a purely traversal standpoint you can make consistent, significant distances compared to other killers. Unlike Freddy or Demo who have good traversal, they are locked behind sizeable cooldowns or require a portal/gen to facilitate. Plague and Oni are both examples of killers with very strong snowball powers, but require set up time to achieve and have pretty obvious counterbalances. That being said, the format doesn't always work well (see Myers outside of TP).
Agree with the point, but creating "teleporting Oni 2.0" really ain't the way to fix nurse. It'll just make playing her feel janky and still would be a problem for players to try and learn. They'd have to manage the teleportation aspect (including muscle memory, verticality, blink placement, zoning) as well as resource management (no details on how such a format would even work) and standard 115% gameplay. Yeah, can't say I'm onboard with this particular idea.
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Even if we are (massively) downplaying how good the range add ons are during chase, surely you understand that traversing the map faster helps incredibly with ''chase to gen speed ratio''.
And im going to be perfectly honest with you chief, ''plenty of other killers can do better than she can even with the addons'' is not even a remotely good argument because none of those killers can end chases as fast as nurse.
And she doesnt need to be the greatest at everything. Even without the add ons she is well above average at map traversal. She is even the strongest at it in vertical maps. She doesnt need to be one of the best at that aspect as well.
There is no reason not to nuke the add ons. By your reasoning alone they are too strong.
I know you might be attached to them, lots of nurse mains are. But they are way too strong and every one who can look at it objectively can see that. And frankly, the nurse doesnt need that much of a crutch..
Coming from a fellow nurse main.
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Her post-blink lunge is only effective if the survivor has nothing to put between them and the nurse.
So yes, sometimes the survivor will be in a deadzone where he/she will have no obstacle at his/her disposal, but ... I want to say, it's a bit like the principle of a chase, pay attention to your environment.
If the nurse gets close to the survivor, but the survivor is moving around an obstacle, the range of the blow will not necessarily be enough.
Reducing his post-tp attack range would be too disabling because in case of failure, it would force him to wait for the end of his fatigue + the end of his tp tokens reload time.
With the current post-tp range, if the nurse is not in the right place, range or not, the shot will not go through.
Regarding instadown skills, if a survivor is exposed because of, for example, haunted ground, can't he stay out of sight until the timer ends?
There are some synergies that are more complicated to avoid: I'm thinking of: floods of rage + lethal pursuer + range addons + make your choice.
In this case, this combo allows the nurse to have a great chance, indeed, to OS the survivor who has unhooked (even if it is not 100% sure).
It is a devastating combo, but the victory or defeat of the nurse does not depend only on this combo.
Regarding the fatigue time: in some situations, it is possible to follow the survivor's path, even in a state of fatigue, but sometimes, the fact that the survivor manages to hide is a matter of seconds.
Increasing the fatigue time by 1s (about) could be very penalizing in some situations (the current fatigue time already allows you to "disappear" as if by magic, in many situations)
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I want to see one very important change when Nurse gets a rework. She needs to lose the ability to "correct" a blink distance by blinking into the floor to "stop/slow down". Change nurse's base kit power so that if she charges for a 20m blink then she travels 20m in that direction.
This is important because letting the nurse have this as part of her kit lets her create "catch 22" scenarios.
One small change that might also make Nurse interesting would be to make it so she can't blink through pallets that have been used. If a pallet is 2m tall then make the pallet have a 4m "blink exclusion zone" that you just aren't allowed to blink through.
Where is Otz correct :
-Spirit/Blight/Nurse all have completely insane addons that need to be deleted or completely reworked.
-Nurse needs to be reworked.
-Blight needs to be reworked so his power is often less available.
-Spirit was already nerfed very hard and just needs to lose the offending addons.
-Nurse would have more counterplay if she had -50% lunge range on her blink attacks by default.
-Nurse would have more counterplay if she had -4m blink range by default and had no addons to increase range or speed up blink recovery.
Conclusion:
These two changes made "default" plus the removal of "floor blinking" tech would make Nurse into an A tier killer that would still be strong but would not be "too strong". She would require very precise blinks that would allow for survivors to "loop" her around trees, high walls, generators, etc. She would require very precise blinks and it would be fun to play against. You would still have fun playing nurse as you get the power of blinking through terrain and ignoring pallets.
Where Otz is wrong:
-Pyramid Head players always use the same two addons : double range. While it might not seem like much these addons together add 1.5m to an ability that is 8m long by default. What happens in practice is that it effectively gives you "nurse like" results when you compare best addons vs "whatever" addons. In other words double range addons prevent most mind games a survivor can do around terrain and makes his power too "sure" to get a hit - just like nurse. Sometimes a small increase on paper ~19% can have a very large adjustment in how useful the power becomes.
-Nurse needs zero adjustment until we also start looking into how to adjust SWF.
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Just delete her due to "bug fixes" - forever. Easy fix.
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Her post-blink lunge is only effective if the survivor has nothing to put between them and the nurse.
Are you saying Nurse can only ever hit survivors out in the open? Nurse can swing around obstacles even if there is something between her and a survivor after a blink.
If the nurse gets close to the survivor, but the survivor is moving around an obstacle, the range of the blow will not necessarily be enough.
In the time between end of blink and start of lunge, a survivor regularly cannot get around an obstacle, and if they do because they got there early enough, the point precisely is that the long lunge Nurse has currently allows her to still get them anyway. Making the lunge shorter doesn't make hitting survivors literally impossible, in these or any other instances, it just makes it so there is less leeway. Think of her lunge as a third blink, we can shorten it without taking it away entirely. Surely you don't think shortening her lunge by 0.1% would change much of anything. So clearly there's a spectrum there, her lunge can be shortened without rendering her underpowered, the question is only how much would it have to be shortened by to leave her in a balanced spot.
I have played White Nit Comb Nurse and killed plenty with it, and just out of curiosity I went and looked for videos of others doing so - here are two example VODs from a streamer that used up all of her offerings and played 100+ games of White Nit Comb doing so, and she still won plenty of her games as well: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1508867579, https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1507982737. And again, this is -50% lunge range, I suggested that maybe -33% would suffice.
It indeed makes Nurse somewhat weaker and more challenging to play since you have to be somewhat more precise with your blinks... which is the point.
in case of failure, it would force him to wait for the end of his fatigue + the end of his tp tokens reload time.
That's already the case.
With the current post-tp range, if the nurse is not in the right place, range or not, the shot will not go through.
With her current ~6m lunge, you can hit survivors within a larger range from your post-blink position than you would be able to with a, say, ~4m lunge. Changing how accurate a blink has to be before it constitutes a "right place" is the point.
Regarding instadown skills, if a survivor is exposed because of, for example, haunted ground, can't he stay out of sight until the timer ends?
So your argument is Nurse should be able to use NOED and Starstruck etc. because survivors can simply stay out of sight? Really getting out the classic "just don't get found" Nurse argument.
Increasing the fatigue time by 1s (about) could be very penalizing in some situations (the current fatigue time already allows you to "disappear" as if by magic, in many situations)
600ms is almost only half a second, 750ms 3/4ths of a second, you'd only get more if you were to stack range add-ons. Plus they could also make it so that the increased fatigue and recharge time only applies if the player actually used the extra range from the add-ons on the respective blink(s), and it could even scale with how much extra distance they used (so if they used 1m more than the default 20 on a given blink, that's obviously only 5% more range, so fatigue and recharge time would also only be increased by 5% in that instance).
Anyway, your points all really seem to boil down to the sentiment that Nurse is totally okay and should not be changed at all. It's fine if that is your opinion, but it's not the opinion of most experienced players, including die-hard Nurse mains. And either way, I'm not here to argue about whether Nurse needs some rebalancing or not, for me it's been painfully obvious for years that she does.
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So buff 27 other killer up to the power of 1 broken one? Why not just nerf the 1 OP one and then balance around that level instead?
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My opinions tend to be the complete opposite of everyone else's. So I'm gonna keep them to myself xd
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When they do get around to fixing nurse I hope they keep her fun to play against, but without the massive power potential and ability to dominate and negate what the survivor does.
On the other hand, just knowing all the nurse mains who defend the broken nurse would be upset makes me want the devs to completely gut her, bringing her down to F tier. For a little while, anyways. Seeing the nurse mains having to play a character who isn't OP would be lovely. I imagine they would all just go to Blight, though. They aren't much interested in a balanced game, they want to win at all costs.
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Clicked off the video. Otz bought up a lot of valid points. But one I got to the issues that's where I clicked off.
Otz focuses too much on **THE CHASE** and not **THE GAME**
Add-ons
While I agree her range add-ons can be problematic, we still have horribly designed maps (Red Woods, Spring Wood) that should justify her to be able to run at least 1 range add on.
"Power having no downtime"
Sally's rework was essentially a cool down (recharge) stacked on top of another cool down (fatigue). Sally is the slowest moving character in the game, she needs to blink, and let's not forget outside of chasing blinking is her movement.
I understand he wants to change Nurse, but something is always gonna be busted about Sally no matter what what you do to her besides give her a whole new kit.
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Let Clown take over. Just for the lulz and the killing joke.
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From the moment I heard, "The problem with the nurse is that she has her power all the time!", I knew I was wasting my time.
The acceleration of her range addons, yes, we can talk about that, I agree. For the rest, the nurse is fine.
It's sad to see people spending so much energy just because one killer is stronger than the others ... You'll really have to show me your games against these "OP nurses", because according to this forum, we meet them every 3 games ...
On the other hand, here are more important and relevant topics:
SoloQ improvement.
Improvement of the other killers.
Improvement of the surviving ATH.
Removal of the BP limit.
Removal of NOED.
Etc.
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Both are useless against good groups. A good survivor will throw pallets early against oni and he won’t get his power until 1-2 gens are left. Plague has similar problems to Huntress in that sever maps and structures severely limit her
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He is doing this for views, this dude has no idea how to play nurse who is a fun and balanced killer.
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Never say never, sounds like you'll be sad when she gets her inevitable nerfs 😭
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This solution sounds most appealing solely because I'm tired of survivors not wanting to play a match because of a killer. And I can finally play nurse games in a 4v1. Also rip hag.
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Otz is on the money here. Something id like to add
every killer ignores atleast one game play mechanic. that is the point of killer powers.
ghostfast, myers, both ignore survivors hearing a terror radius and both ignore survivors having two health states
death slinger hitting his shot for an injure ignores pallets, vaults, and even some cheeky hole in the walls
huntress and trickster ignore distnace gaps and having to chase
So he is correct on the her ignoring gameplay mechanics but before everyone hops on that boat, again, every killer does.
as he points out she can't see at tall walls where as normal killer just chase you around them. ive lost plenty of nurses just looping where she can't see me.
all that being said, his suggestions are all great
i also suggest buffing her base movement speed and giving her blink a longer cooldown. higher risk/reward ratio for the blink but atleast she can TRY to chase people.
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Nurse needs a completely rework to her power. She was made for 2016 standarts and a lot of things changed in 6 years. I dont think "nerfing her power" like increased fatigue time or reduced blinks is a good idea. That would make her just less enjoyable and more punishing while also making her weaker (like Billy, Freddy and Deathslinger) which i dont think is a good thing. Making her Oni v2 is not a good solution again because that would just make playing Oni and Plague instead of Nurse worthless which is not a good balance system. Yeah her addons can be nerfed but her basekit will still be strongest basekit and people will still complain about her. Reworking her to completely different power but also keeping her lore wised things would best solution imo.
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The m1 special attack nerf and addon nerfs are absolutely necessary, but I think what she really needs is some kind of feedback for survivors. Nurse has been one of my mains since I started playing this game, so I really enjoy going against her - and not only that, but the survivors who run me almost always tell me that they play nurse too.
Bur what about survivors who don't play her? The nature of her fatigue, her charge time, her movement, her blinks, how challenging some obstacles are to play around, etc. are all completely alien concepts and extremely difficult for most people to get the hang of in a natural way.
Solution? I would reduce her lunge by something like 15%, and then add a particle effect to the place she will appear at the instant she releases her blink. This way playing against her would be more intuitive and give survivors a way to "learn" her power. These 3 nerfs combined would take the edge off of nurse, and while she would still be top tier, I think the shitters who have been camping and tunneling with her while using double range would move on to alch ring blight or something instead.
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No cheap Dead Hard for survivors is something I am absolutely loving as well. The nerf was so important.
90 second gens giving me more time as killer, just as fantastic. I feel like I can play fair in general and always have a chance to win. Might still need one or two slowdown perks, depending on the killer, but nothing crazy.
The chase buffs to killers, just as great. Holding w was nerfed a bit, and breaking pallets a bit faster also helps. It feels great, and encourages killer players to go for more chases, and play normally. This is of course especially further improved by the Dead Hard nerf.
If you are willing to wait 10 minutes for one match every time, then good for you I guess. But most people are not a fan of this. The thing is, all of the stuff mentioned above, we could still have, with nice and short killer queue times, if survivors just got the buffs they need as well. Nerf camping and tunneling, now killers are also discouraged from not playing normally, which will make the survivor experience immediately better.
And then some of the slowdown perks just need to be nerfed a bit, so gen times don't get too out of hand. The game would be better for both sides, noticeably.
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@Sunkisses_ that sounds like something they would do on nurse. they'd lower her skill-floor by giving her plaid flannel base-kit similar to pinhead's gateway and give visual indicator where the blink is going for survivor to react to the blink which lower skill-floor for nurse and it makes it easier survivor to play against her combine with lower lunge range.
it would close to spirit change where killer is easier to play but less powerful overall since survivor has more control over the ability.
oni is great example of a killer where his drawback is so severe that it makes him unable to compete against good teams. having ~90 forced cooldowns from orb collections makes him terrible vs swf. in practice Oni is suppose have weak early game, but if he gets hit, he's suppose to snowball and be able recycle his ability, but that doesn't really happen at default vs strong teams.
there's currently bug that makes survivors drop double blood orbs with current Oni, so current Oni with bug is close to what default Oni should be like, but its bug for now that will likely get fixed.
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Cant we just buff the other killer abilites if we want to make nurse strand out less? Especially if at least 6 of em are considered weak?
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As someone who plays Nurse quite a bit I have to agree with him. I've done some tests and if she's done up to earning her power she will be a lot more balanced than she is right now where she can just go on forever.
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Three weeks after they release the "Bots in custom matches" patch (You have to give them time to killswitch it and then re-release it in working order...) you'll be able to practice your blinks as Nurse and your hatchet throws as Huntress.
We'll see how OP people think Nurse is when a bunch of newbs are suddenly really good with her. ;)
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Basekit nurse is fine, only her addons need nerfs.
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That’s actually a great idea. I’m sure bhvr already has ideas too, they just need to take action!!
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oh yes the devs should make 23 killers overpowered instead of nerfing just one, please people use logic.
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Your appeal to logic fails spectacularily considering your first instinct to overexagerate any potential buff to other killers.
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He is right and his ideas are good, as usual. Of course the Nurse mains don't want to admit this. I have maybe 30-40h on Nurse and i stomp most public teams, i even get a lot of hits when i mess up because she always gets pokos. You don't need to be a god tourney player Nurse to win most matches in public games.
I don't know if reworking her power like this will be a consideration but i guess making her add ons worse and maybe slow her blink time or give her more cooldown (like Spirit) would do the job aswell
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Nurse addons needs nerfs for sure. Playing against a nurse with range or recharge addons makes me want to get Oni moried.
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Excuse me, have you actually seen good Oni players? Oni is a really solid killer even in comp. You're just talking nonsense without having an actual clue of what you're saying
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he's solid against players that aren't good at looping m1 and do poorly against his demon fury. he's hard-forced to tunnel/camp/slug to be remotely effective. His mechanic at base is really good way to neuter killer any killer power, so nurse would definitely suffer from Oni's system.
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If the nurse have to "gain" her power, same goes to blight and spirit then. So coz of 1 nurse, they'll have to change other S-tiers.
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