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Should Killers Have To Play a Near Perfect Game to Get a 4K?
Comments
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You really think Dredge is the most OP killer?
And why the heck are you letting an 8 year old play this game?
Seriously though, if you are having trouble against Dredge and 8 year olds, I think you really need to try to improve.
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If you seriously think BP has anything to do with actual game balance, just crank up every bp gain for survivors by 10x and no one would care.
Turns out it was nothing more than rather biased guy saying ridiculous thing anyway.
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It's the survivors that can get snowballed and have 0 catchup mechanic. This is why so many people quit games. If someone gets 2 hooks before 2 gens are done the game is pretty much over.
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With the way the game is now, I don't think Its very hard to get a 4k if your playing dirty. If I want 4ks I camp a 3 gen and just simply vibe. Drown out the game as much as possible, and with current slowdowns its not very difficult. If this is the definition of a perfect game then sure.
But a more ideal "perfect game" for both sides would be one with multiple chases, and a constant back n forth. A game of cat and mouse. Most games I play like this are not resulting in 4ks, usually 3 or 2ks.
So I guess it just depends on that specific person's view of what a win is. 4ks feel great, but I wouldn't count it as necessary for a win.
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My thoughts too. I often feel like many killers consider anything less than a 4k a loss. I even saw feedback once that said killers should get a guaranteed 3k every game, as though 3k should be the baseline for a loss. Like could you imagine? It would change the entire game dynamic - it'd be survivor vs survivor.
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if you're not running slowdown, then what he said is mostly correct, but it depends on what killers you're playing as. Slowdown however is there to let you make mistakes without punishing you too much. It gives you extra time to make mistakes.
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I'll tackle the first part first. I disagree with the notion that killers had to play a near perfect game to win before the patch. And they certainly don't have to play a perfect game since the patch. I think killer players greatly underestimate the lengths to which they throw their own games at times. You have a bit of wiggle room mechanically if your game sense and macro stuff is good, and vice versa.
Should killers have to play nearly perfectly? For the average public match, of course not. Soft cap MMR vs soft cap MMR? Both sides should have to play a clean game to win provided the other side is playing well. The performance expectation should scale with the level of play. I wouldn't expect someone with 200 hrs on killer to play a perfect game. I think it's fair to expect a 4k hr player to play a clean game in a quality match.
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No, no more than survivors need to play a near perfect game to get a 0k.
This is a snowbally game. 'Draws' aren't common. It tends to be either a 0-1k or a 3-4k.
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Right. No reason to help your team in solo if you can get the hatch and be the only one to escape.
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It is a PvP game, not a game vs AIs, the average should be 2k, with 4k being an exception.
It's like saying "I have to play a near perfect game to get the highest score on my the team in CS:GO" or some other game. Well, yes, you do.
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Imagine DBD didn't exist, but you take the same concept of 4 survivors vs 1 killer, and the answer would resoundingly be: No! Quite the opposite! The survivors should be under pressure to play super well and coordinated, and only then do they stand a chance to escape the killer. We saw this back in the day with Slender multiplayer and other Gmod/indie games that operated under the same premise.
Now, if we make it abnormal for survivors to escape, we at least need to make them feel like they accomplished something before the match is over. For some people, that's dailies and rift challenges, for others it's getting 4 WGLF stacks (although now the extra BP is gone), and others invent their own win condition. Maybe we could go that route. But the killer should never be the one under pressure from the get-go (because of bad game balance) just to make survivors feel safe/confident (the exact opposite of how they should feel).
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...dredge...OP? Yeah ok, good joke
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Yeah, if they think the Dredge is OP, that shows where they are coming from. The Dredge is great for stomping noobs and low-mid level teams, but against better teams Dredge is middle of the pack.
As for the topic, you can't really say a killer should need to play a near perfect game to 4K because which killer you are using is a huge variable. If I am using Spirit or PH and play a perfect or near perfect game against a good (not great) team, I'm gonna mop the floor with them.
If I make as few mistakes against the same team with, say, Clown, I might get a 4K, might get only 2. Or none.
In the same vein, I can make a fair number of mistakes with a top tier killer and still 4K, but more than a few mistakes with a lower tier killer might get you a 0K.
How good is the killer, how well did you play, how good was the surv team, how well did they play, the map, RNG, MMR (especially survivor MMR, which is dog water) all are variables that make it impossible to create a balance in which only a near perfect game will get you a 4K (or a 4E, from the other perspective).
In an ideal world where DBD was even in the neighborhood of the ballpark of being balanced enough, with a precise and consistent matchmaking system, sure, having to play your best to get a 4K would be great (or the surv team would have to play like a well-oiled machine to get a 4E).
But in this reality? Yeah, that's not a remotely realistic expectation.
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Your friend does not sound good killer. Before patch I 3K+ giving hatch and 4K most my games. Half of my wins were easy and other half I had to work for. Some games I lost because I made mistake so as killer you have to play perfectly if you wan 90% win rate or at least before patch. Now I think you can make mistakes az killer even agains't good survivors and you can still win even if they don't do.
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Hard truth: 4K is only "basekit" against low level teams. This was true pre-patch, and is only slightly less true now.
People out there getting 4K rolled match after match by low-mid tier killers are playing at or near the bottom of the MMR barrel. Sucks if you're solo stuck in mmr hell, but that's still what it is. Feels better to blame it on killer being OP, though.
Conversely, if you're stomping team after team with, say, Legion, you're not going up against good survivors.
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yes, and all 4 survivors should have to play perfectly for a 4E.
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You do not need to play perfectly unless you are playing against the TOP of the top.
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it depends on the killer, low tier killers like pig or sadako yes
higher tier like blight or legion or literally any killer that can zoom acorss the map and insta down uh its a bit, more of just good knowledge of the killer than prefect gameplay
of course depends on the map as well
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Near perfect? Maybe in a perfect world with perfect match-making at high MMR. I'd say "considerably better than the survivors". There are just too many variables otherwise, and at low-mid MMR, both sides are making mistakes (otherwise you'd probably be in high MMR).
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you're aware MMR was killswitched after 6.1 right?
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"Being the killer is supposed to be challenging because its 4v1" - you think that killer should be challenging because they're outnumbered by 4:1?
You don't see that you have this backwards??
"you are escaping because MMR has been shut off and there's a flood of new killers"
MMR has not been shut off at all.
Dredge who literally is the most OP killer next to artist
Dredge? OP? Really?
"you're aware MMR was killswitched after 6.1 right?"
Again, no, MMR was not killswitched. BP incentives were.
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did you really just snipe one of my discussions to find anything i've said to talk smack over? personal attack much? Anyone who doesn't think massive map control/counter looping plus having the ability to see clear as day in darkness isn't OP doesn't realize how easy they counter loops/stealth.. and if MMR wasn't killswitched then call me an a biscuit and butter me silly because I have been thrown into the most random match-ups as a survivor to date. maybe the massive amount of killers in lobbies have completely destroyed the MMR system because i'm telling you... MMR is basically trashed and has been. Just admit it cramps you're gung-ho for the killer-role there's really no need to jump to another discussion just to bad-mouth every line i've posted because youre upset with the thanat nerf that was really necessary.
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"Snipe" your discussions? Is that a thing? No, it was on the first page since your last reply was 20 minutes prior to mine. This isn't the only thread I've posted in today, probably won't be the last, get over yourself. There have been no "personal attacks" from me at all.
Very, very few people would consider Dreadge to be OP, I'm sorry, but that's absurd. He's easily countered by simply holding W, the same as Artist. Newer players may struggle against him, sure, but he's not really a problem any more than any other killer and certainly isn't "OP".
MMR has absolutely not been killswitched.
I don't care about the Thanat nerf. Read my posts on the other thread you replied to me on. I'll continue to use it on both Legion and Plague as it'll still be effective. I didn't "bad-mouth" every line you posted. I, politely, corrected several lines in which you were incorrect. There's a difference.
You have a poor attitude mate, most of your comments seem to stem from a place of anger and you appear to be searching for an argument. Relax, it's a game.
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holding W... Does everyone on the forum play PC? you literally can't say he's not OP because you can forward run him... that's the weakest argument ever... He's a 4.6 who can teleport two different ways mid loop.. Artist also has super strong loop counters because she can hit/injure a survivor at range while being a 4.6.. sure you can dodge/180 these killers but their base powers are 100% overpowered because they counter loops as good if not better then a well seasoned nurse... (who consists of a constant 50/50 coin flip on her blinks) anyone who doesnt think they're OP just doesn't understand the strength of their powers mechanics.. because Artist and Dredge are super strong and claiming "forward running" against a 4.6 is some sort of counter is ludicrous..
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I can, however, say that he's not OP because he isn't that strong. Freddy is a 4.6m/s killer who can teleport mid-loop, Sadako is a 4.6m/s killer who can teleport mid-loop, Demogorgon is a 4.6m/s killer who can teleport mid-loop.
If Dredge charges his ability at a loop, he leaves a remnant which is visible, that means he's moving slower than a survivor at a measly 3.68m/s and is no longer a 4.6m/s killer - this is the point that you should run away and stop looping unless you can destroy his remnant - It's that easy to counter his ability. "OP", sure thing.
Dredge absolutely does not counter loops as good as or better than a well seasoned Nurse, that's utterly ridiculous.
Anyone who thinks Dredge is OP, doesn't understand the strength or weaknesses of their powers mechanics. You seem to think that he has a 4.6m/s anti-loop ability. He doesn't.
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You shouldn't have to, but it can feel like it. How quickly you can get a down, how long your chases last, the value of your perks, the map you get, a lot of stiff can suddenly make or break a game depending on how everything goes.
I think a huge reason for these issues comes down to the fact that a Killer can only rely on themselves, except Nemesis who has to pray he gets the zombies that share a brain cell rather than the complete joke zombie AI tends to be. As a Survivor I can at least go in knowing I have teammates a play accordingly.
Will I be the gen jockey, the hook savior, will I run the Killer? My role can change depending on what the other 3 do. As a Killer I have to be able to get quick downs and snowball to get the 4K. This is where I always like to point out that no matter whay the devs say, or the community says, for a vast majority of Killers the 4K is a win, and MMR agrees.
Its the same reason SWF groups get dodged. Do people really have an issue with friends playing together? I doubt it, and at least I don't. But the information that they do share (essential having basekit Kindred, Alert, Empathy, Object of Obsession) combined with the Killer not being able to do anything about it makes games feel even less fun.
This in turn I feel leads to Killers feeling the need to camp and tunnel, because securing a quick kill DOES make the game easier. When I play if I can find a weak link early on I get them out quickly, because than there is one less Survivor working on a gen, or healing. Same thing with camping. Sometimes you need to secure the kill.
Had a game as Dredge a while back on Coldwind. I had downed and hooked a Dwight, and I did leave him. None of his teammates went to save him til close to 2nd stage, and by than I was chasing a Namcy who led me back to Dwight. Now I had all 3 Survivors around this Dwight and I kept chasing them off. Eventually Nancy rushes for the save injured, I down her, and see Dwight had only a few seconds left so I just stared at him til he died. Nea rage quit, amd Nancy and Elodie died quickly, and I got spammed with hate messages over it.
But that was a unique circumstance right? How about a Mikey game where I went against really good players. I had brought Infinite T3 but couldn't get the pop until 1 gen left (was going for his Adept at the time). Well I had sacrificed a Dette, and get my T3 to pop and down a Nea just as last gen pops. So I hook her near a door and wait, and sure enough I see a Meg running around. I start to go after her, only to double back amd catch Feng going for the unhook.
Down her, wait for Nea to die, than pick up Feng cause I figured Meg had ran. She did not, she ran past me to the door, so I dropped Feng, chased her and downed her and she DCd. Hook and kill Feng and again, get hit with hate messages after.
In both of those games I did what were sensible options in the situations I was in, and got flak over it. So if Im going to get flak for it even when its the obvious choice to do, might as well do it all the time.
Didn't mean to turn that into a camping thing at the end, but my point was simply that Killers shouldn't need to play perfectly to get a 4K, but there are so many circumstances out of a Killers control that if a Killer wants to get 4Ks consistently, they more often than not need to play "dirty"
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4ks happen usually out of survivors making mistkaes so it's a more complicated answer.
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They should have to play a near perfect game if the survivors they are going against are also playing extremely well.
If not, then it should just depend on who plays better. And if the killer clealry plays better, they should be rewarded with a win, a 3 or 4k.
And to be fair, the baseline buffs to killers really helped with this. Killers now have more time at base to deal with their own objective, having a fairer chance at winning if they play better than the survivor team. If playing fairly, their objective can take a bit, so gens being 90 seconds was very good change.
The biggest problem is that tunneling and camping also remained just as effective, or were even buffed, with this patch. So killers also have an insanely easy way out to win, that takes very little skill. That and certain slowdown perks just being too strong in combination with 90 second gens are the problem with this game's balance right now.
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Not so much that you have to play perfectly - moreover for the other side to not play as well as you, either throughout or in one moment of madness. I've even had 4ks which I know were not deserved, and escapes that could only be down to pure luck.
There are lots of factors involved, but from experience most successes are made through mistakes from the other side and how those mistakes are taken advantage of.
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You can't outscore every survivor if you 1K because you're MMR is brought down 3 times by the 3 that escaped. Also, need I remind you this is an asymmetrical game, it doesn't work off of linear balance.
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It depends on the survivors.
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Yeah I think so but 3ks shouldn't take as much serious effort and 2ks should be your average regardless of your strategy or killer. So for average/chill killers 2ks should be normal or frequent, and for good killers a 3k should be more frequent, and for sweaty competitive streamer killers with thousands of followers 4ks should be the most frequent outcome.
I was watching one of Sledge's videos talking about asyym balance (he streams Evil Dead) and he made some really good points. In an asymm, balance-wise, the 4 part of the 4v1 should be the ones that win if they all play perfectly. If you have both sides playing perfectly then it really should be the team of 4 that win, whether that means a victory in evil dead or a 3-4 escape in dbd. If both sides play perfectly and the killer/demon wins then it's a sign of gameplay imbalance skewed towards the killer. Part of the reasoning is that it takes far more skill to keep a team of 4 people perfectly coordinated (comms or not) whereas for the killer/demon they only have to worry about their own gameplay and mistakes and communication isn't an issue at all.
I think dbd was already pretty killer-sided pre 6.1.0. There's so many killer main streamers and just regular players who would get really high win streaks. I think the real issue was killes getting frustrated by how much more difficult their games were getting as they won more. The two roles have opposite learning curves. ie a baby survivor has a super hard time with tons of stuff to learn before they can start seeing their win rate improve but after they've put in time (like a ton of time) the game starts getting better winrate-wise whereas with killer they start out having a major advantage and with easy high winrates that dont require much skill but as time goes on they get to s point where suddenly they need to start mastering a ton of skills. Killers like to complain on this forum and elsewhere but despite their complaints I know most of them still win on average 50-65% of their matches. It's just that it's very challenging to consistently do that. Rather than look at their own skill as the issue as to why its so difficult many of them blame a game mechanic. Not long ago there were killers on this forum complaining about survivors being able to run without getting tired lol like yeah, let's add a stamina bar lmao The truth is that survivor is extremely hard at first and gets easier as you master tons of skills, and killer is super easy at first but gets harder.
I think killers should have a fair chance, FAIR chance, at 2king against survivors who play perfectly in every way, but in no way should they be able to comfortably 3 or 4k against those groups unless the survivors make a mistake that plays to the killers favor.
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For a killer to play perfect they need survivors to make mistakes, so if survivors doesnt make mistakes killers cant play perfect because they wouldnt be able to catch a survivors, so imo killers should be stronger than 4 survivors instead of equal to 4 survivors
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what basis do you have that in order for a killer to play perfect the survivors have to make mistakes? under which strat? protecting gens? pursuing constant chase until downed? I think alot of killers don't take accountability for their own play style and mistakes.
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