they are adding new measures for countering camping and tunneling...

Unless behaviour can add maximum incentive to spread hooks out camping and tunneling will forever be.

I was thinking there could be a way to work the entity in there where she can make things more spicey when the hook count goes up. Something more imaginative than min/max what's already there.

Agreed. It's a fine line sometimes and very hard to go around.

Can't believe there are people still crying over boons

An entire minute of reassurance base kit is absolutely not a solution. The problem is impossible to fix as long as the concept of a hook exists

Just spitballing here but how about a ramping sacrifice accelerator (like monstrous shrine) that grows for each different survivor hooked at the same time?

-"I can't believe you unironically compared apex predators in nature to someone sitting on their ass"

Maybe you should take a look into ecology friend. DBD has many parallels to the hunting pattern of animals. Is it easier to chase someone when you know they must go for a hook or when they can be hiding around a jungle gym?

This is mostly true but not entirely a perfect analysis of the situation. Part of the reason killers tunnel is to make the game 3v1 so that their 1/4 gen regression speed becomes more likely to be able to be used. I will say again that tunneling is needed when you play killer because your "undo" speed is so slow compared to survivor repair speed.

Casual gamers don't keep playing the game for years after constant abuse. The nature of a casual gamer is that they play a game for a while and move on. Everyone on my friends list who could play killer at a better than competent level was not casual.

Would you keep playing DBD if all you ever got as killer were try hard Nurses and Blights for 90% of your games? I think the answer is no.

Hate to break it to anyone, but if you find it "impossible" to win without camping and tunnelling, you are just not good enough. Even at the oh so "competitive" MMR cap. https://twitter.com/KnightLight1337/status/1563656841976057863

To note: I do think actual nerfs to camping and tunnelling have to go along with buffs to other aspects of killer gameplay.

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say, but again, good killer players can and do win the vast majority of their matches even without camping and tunnelling. I'm not saying this is true in tournaments, but it is provably true in the actual game mode that 99+% of players actually play. Even at the upper end of MMR, it is possible to win most of your killer matches even without camping and tunnelling. Even without playing Nurse! If you do camp and tunnel, you can even win most of your matches perkless (as you'll see in the vods here https://www.twitch.tv/kaiizoru/videos for just one random example).

The solution to a real extent really is "gitting gut". But again, that doesn't mean I am ignorant of the fact that in high-level matchups against competitive teams on voice comms, camping and tunnelling to a degree are necessary to be able to consistently compete, and that therefore nerfs to those strategies have to go alongside with buffs to other aspects of killer gameplay. I also am for SWF nerfs. And various lower-tier killers deserve buffs anyway.

-"good killer players can and do win the vast majority of their matches even without camping and tunnelling"

I don't see that as true. Again the last time I watched Otz two games in a row he needed to tunnel to win.

And the time before that I watched Otz play the game he went against a crack team on Lerry's where he camped someone for all their health states in the basement.

Otz has 9000 hours of playtime and he regularly tells his audience that sometimes you need to camp/slug/tunnel to win. I feel like as a "professional paid" player he has a better informed opinion than you.

He didn't even follow his own rules on the AFK challenge. If you look at the series he did of that challenge he had the survivors throw at least 7 games. Compare when Truetalent did the same challenge and there was 1 throw. Needless to say when True did the challenge the level of competition was a lot more fierce. Otz often plays late into the night when the competition gets weak. Truetalent makes a note of this all the time when he streams. Most of Otz's show is pretty late at night and there are a number of people that take note about how he gets overall much easier games. I'm not saying one is better than the other it's just a reflection of a notable fact.

The point about Otz was that the last two times I watched him were two games of tunneling/camping each time. When he wants to win he will engage try hard mode. He will be the first to tell you that camping/slugging/tunneling accomplish that and are often necessary against good teams. You even agree on this point.

I think a more honest representation of DBD is when playing DBD it becomes more necessary to camp against a SWF team. The only problem with that is that Every game I played tonight with perhaps one exception was a 3 or 4 man swf. I don't want to play against that every game because I have to camp/slug/tunnel against it or I lose hard.

How so? Besides, multiple people did the same challenge, everyone apart from Tru3 averaging 2 or more kills. https://twitter.com/otzdarvayt/status/1479461876669030400

Again, this is while perkless and giving survivors a crucial headstart. Note that I don't care to go into some useless argument about what specifically happened in all of those streamers' matches for this challenge and whatnot. I only brought this thing up to tangentially highlight how Otz, who you brought up as someone whose opinion you trust, is of the opinion that if you improve your killer play, you can win most matches pretty handedly. Take it from the man himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acHiwnCW7eI

Even if I were to accept it as a fact that competition on average gets worse at night (I don't, I have seen no evidence for this, nor do I know whether Otz actually mostly plays at night), the argument would just become "then play at those same times yourself lmao". Besides, why would we even expect players that play during the night to be worse? They are more likely to be the die-hard gamers that don't have work commitments or whatever, it is much more likely for casuals to play during the day.

And regardless, the argument that people apparently consistently get a completely different species of survivor players where suddenly the otherwise allegedly "IMPOSSIBLY SURVIVOR SIDED CAN'T EVER WIN" game becomes "yeah they 4k 99% of their games but that's totally normal at that time of day" has always been asinine. Not least because part of that "sentiment" is also that survivor is brainlessly easy to play and anyone can win if they just click a button or two... yet apparently thousands upon thousands of real human players did not get this memo since they don't stand a chance against these killers, time after time. Gotta be because they're a completely different type of humans from those that other people face! Those other people that are totally super good at the game but supposedly just can't win as killer. Which is not true for Tru3 either by the way, last time I checked he wins most of his matches too.

While I have followed some of the best players in this game across most major regions and can confidently say that on average there is little difference in the average competition they face (good killers 4k 90+% of their matches everywhere, including Korea where I am convinced the average level of play is at least slightly higher than elsewhere), I would if anything argue that Tru3 is more likely to face lesser competition than Otz. As far as I know, Tru3 is situated in the UK while Otz is in Spain. UK has its own servers, Spain gets routed to central EU servers in Germany most of the time. Russian, Eastern European and Middle-Eastern players also get routed to German servers, and believe me or not, players from those regions are some of the best in the world, and they don't regularly end up on UK servers because obviously they have a lower ping to Germany.

Again, all of this is just a tangential point not really relevant at all to the main argument, which is that provably (like, there's actual recorded proof, not sure what's there to even argue), good killer players can and do win most of their pub matches even at top MMR without camping and tunnelling, with every killer.

Yeah, we agree on this, and Otz definitely isn't some hyper-wholesome player that doesn't care about winning more than survivor fun or whatever, I have played against him multiple times myself (on both sides) and he absolutely does camp and tunnel and all that sometimes. I'm just pretty sure from the times I watched him that he's not a super "sweaty" hard camper or tunneller at all, that is not his usual playstyle, as opposed to lots of "tryhard" killers I face that camp and tunnel hard all the time every time from the second the round begins, and they have the thousands of -rep profile comments from frustrated survivor players to go with it, spanning years. Otz from what I've seen is more likely to use gimmicky builds and fun playstyles and not be super concerned about killing everyone all the time. And yet from what I know he still kills most survivors most of the time. Pretty sure I took kill rate stats from a few of his VODs for an argument on here sometime, and he averaged around 3 kills I think? And that was while using random perks in many of those matches if I remember correctly.

Either way, we agree that camping/tunnelling can at times even be downright necessary to win, and this is increasingly true the better and more coordinated the survivors are, where at the top end (high-skill 4-SWF on voice comms with good loadouts on a good map), I consider it a necessity even on Nurse and Blight if you want to consistently be able to compete and win. So I for one do want substantial killer buffs to go along with any substantial nerfs for camping and tunnelling. But yeah, that doesn't mean good players even at top MMR (the average match at which is still worlds removed from top end caliber) wouldn't still be mostly fine in most of their matches even without any compensatory buffs for such nerfs. I don't consider myself an elite killer player and yet I still win much more matches than I lose, despite regularly even going out of my way not to camp or tunnel. And given how often I win, I have to assume I'm at the MMR cap, at least on the killers I frequently play.

For one thing, I doubt you face 3/4-SWF that often, let alone them then also being super good and coordinated and whatnot. But if you actually are, and actually can't seen to manage to do anything against them without camp/slug/tunnel, may I suggest that you simply take the L and have your MMR decrease such that you are more likely to face groups that you can compete against without having to camp/slug/tunnel all that hard?

But I obviously agree that SWF is a notable balance issue. Actual 4-SWFs still make up a tiny portion of the overall player pool, last time we had stats on this solos and duos combined for like 80%, with solos alone being 50-60% of that, but I do think SWF is one of the biggest balance issues in the game, alongside certain maps and certain killers. I've wanted and advocated for SWF nerfs for years.

Yeah even "the most balanced map, comp tower" isn't as balanced as people really say it is. Like sure you can get horrible RNG on it but it doesn't make it balanced when you can have that map loops itself 2 times before you even get a hit cause you could mind game perfectly each time but they just have another tile or pallet right there to deny any hit.