BHVR just killed Hag.
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Hag's perfectly playable with minimal hook camping. I do fine with it - just set up a territory and trap vaults on the side you expect the survivor to jump to and high-traffic crossing points. Odds are you'll end up catching people going towards your hooks anyway.
Flashlights and comms are way nastier for Hag than Reassurance unless you just hug the hook like a Bubba.
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I am not complaining. I hate hag and I am happy I don't have to face her.
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I say this not to you the player, or any other hag mains for that matter.
Good.
I hate hag so much it's unreal. Objectively it's not fair that one killer can be entirely gutted with a single perk and I get that, in a way I sympathize.
Alternatively. To hell with Hag.
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"I can't camp or tunnel as easily anymore" is a weird grievance to have. If that's what makes a certain killer good in the first place, that's a problem with the killer.
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I feel that hag's main issue, is really similar to Michael's issue. Their power was created for an earlier version of this game where there was a lot less game knowledge. There were less people who had been playing the game long enough to know all loops and tiles and how to run everything, and how to counter her power.
Now most people know how to counter her power. Now it only takes an average solo survivor to take initiative to be able to just destroy her power. Plus you also have the introduction of new perks, larger maps, ect.. that really affected the effectiveness of hag over time.
Also like Michael, she remains one of the few untouched killers since her inception. Trapper, wraith, hillbilly, nurse, and even clown have all received changes and adjustments over time to their kits. While hag has received no major adjustments and very few minor adjustments to her kit. Even her movement speed is reflective of an older game.
Yes you can still do very well or horribly with all killers. However, whether you like her or not, I think everyone can agree that she needs an update. Maybe not a whole rework, but at least something to freshen her up.
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Good.
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No wonder this community is so toxic, you can't please anyone ever.
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Im a newer player and hag main . This has been by far the hardest time I’ve had in dbd since I started in June .
I know how to work around BT, and reassurance but surv just keep getting better and better I’m extremely limited on what perks I can even use cause of how new I am .
I personally think they should have already brought in bots. I know it’s not for everyone but I’ve seen many people agree that it could be beneficial.
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*serious matter
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Great! 👌
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I had a hard time playing her even before the base BT stuff. You can't really control all your traps getting triggered and wasted simultaneously, and at that point the match is over for you. That's what separates her from the rest of the "OP" killers.
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If Hag is dead, I don't think a single survivor is going to mourn her.
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You had me for a split second there.
We can agree or disagree about things on this forum. But that's no reason to take it personally.
Yet some people do. A real shame. Especially since having different points of view makes a discussion interesting.
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You're right. But honestly I wouldn't want a rework for her. Since her (and Myers) addons are something that makes her special. I wish we had more killers with addons that completely change the gameplay of the killer.
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But is it though? If she was more prevalent or stealth was more popular. Then people would start to take Urban Evation. Which 100% counters her power.
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Toxicity has nothing to do with that.
One side could get all the strong perks and buffs in the world and still be toxic.
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I see you keep praising her addons and their diversity. Which is strange to me since my opinion differs 100% on that matter. Can you tell me why you think her addons are that great and,, change the gameplay of this killer".
Explain it with examples please, I have a list already why I think her addons are mostly horrible and boring.
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First of all, I'm on the phone right now and won't search for the names of the addons. So I'll just describe them as how I face her as survivor.
I like the addon that doesn't make the triggered trap visible. Because it catches me off guard. When I think I didn't trigger anything.
I also like the addon that makes survivors deaf. Because i have to put in more effort into identifying where she actually is. Especially on indoor maps.
The addon that replaces copies of her, that just block the way is also neat. As blocking some paths requires to rethink where to go. (And before you argue that she could use that to block off the basement, that's exactly what the trapper can do. With the difference that you can Urban Evade above the hags traps.)
The addon that doesn't trigger traps but let's you teleport freely between them across the map. Changes her map presence. Kinda like Demo or Dredge.
I know you're a Hag main and probably have a ton of arguments against those addons. But I find those addons more exiting and game changing than having a 0,2 second increased slowdown, a 0,5 meter longer power range, 4 additional blades, or 0,33 second faster locker animation.
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Hope it stays dead in the hands of those who are unable to learn to use her well. As for the rest of us, who do, we simply demolish each game with the hag...
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Alright my turn.
(while you described her addons from a survivor standpoint I describe them from her own view)
- issue 1 The rarity problem:
The green addons to draw traps faster, teleport further, see survivors aura when they trigger traps and to let the phantasm stay up longer are great. No discussion there. The big problem is : they also exist as yellow and (except for the aura one) in brown form too. Which means there are 7 addons which do what the green ones do but weaker.. This is such a huge waste of space and good ideas..
- issue 2 Stats increasers
Except for the aura one all mentioned addons add nothing to make the game more exciting. As the title says, the aformentioned addons simply increase some stats. While it is good to have these, it's sad to see that half of her addon kit is just stat increases and only 3 addons are good.. The rest is useless. It's also so boring to have addons which do nothing but raise some numbers..
-issue 3 All other addons are bad
You mentioned the silent trap addon earlier. It takes away the cam swing but it's still a pretty good addon. All other addons she has make her worse or they do nothing at all.
Examples: she has addons (many) to increase the trap trigger range. But guess what? Now you cannot hit survs out of a teleport anymore.
The addon which makes other survs deaf does nothing since the terror radius of the phantasm itself masks hags own terror radius. This addon does nothing but play a weird sound effect with 0 impact. You could even go as far and say (a metaphor) it's like Trapper having an addon which says survs get injured when stepping into a trap.
Hag has an addon which makes her terror radius 0 and increases phantasm terror radius when a trap is triggered for 3 seconds. Guess what? Phantasm is bugged to display no terror radius for months now and there is still no fix. Ontop of that you almost always tp to traps so this addon never activates. And even if you dont teleport you need to be lucky that someone triggers a trap somewhere at the right moment when you try to sneak up which happens once per year.
The bodyblock trap takes away the ability to teleport which transforms her into a 110% chase killer. You can only set up now during a chase but survs will leave the loop when you trap and the traps even dont have collision for a few secs after they vault, drop, get hit, sprint etc.
The shoe has the same issues. This addon transforms hag into Clown with the difference she cannot throw bottles, even worse, the slowdown must be placed on top of her. It's like a Clown who has to always drop bottles straight down. Isnt that bad?
And finally the one that allows her to teleport freely around is useless too. It makes you teleport everywhere but where you want to be. It's unhealthy when paired with make your choice and you cannot teleport to cut off a chase since you always look 180 degree away from a surv after a teleport (when you teleport using the addons power) which makes you miss 100% of all attacks.
I know this post was full of addon bashing. The core of it is simply :
Delete all addons and rework them except for the silent trap one and the green versions of the stat increases.
This means : out of all her addons only 5 are usable. Not even good. Just useable at best. The rest have no effect or even straight up nerf her heavily.
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We kinda agree on the same things. All the addons that increase something by a minuscule amount are worthless (on any killer) and should be removed/changed.
And the other ones need to get fixed. Like the one going deaf, should be updated to completely remove the terror radius during the debuff.
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Michi just posted an incredible Hag gameplay. not gonna lie, Michi is way too good at this.
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Then you are rather unlucky, because - while I do see a lot of Hags trapping the hook, the actual campers are a rarity. Trapped hooks have quite a lot of counterplay too.
I'm saying that it's not necessary to play her as a camper.
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Meanwhile Michi today asking someone to hold their beer….
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I think it is toxic, not throwing slurs in the endgame toxic but it's a different kind of toxic. I wonder how many people have tried to get better at a killer only to feel bad about it because they end up here and see "I hate this killer and they should be unplayable and anyone who plays them should feel bad" crap.
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I agree everyone and I mean EVERYONE deserves thier own opinion and to voice it but we all have to agree to disagree when we have a difference of opinion.
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Nice :)
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Yeah. Its pretty unmotivating. Sometimes i even see comments like "you have XXX amount of hours, why you play like this" because i never played this killer before?
Its like everyone who occasionally plays killer is supposed to handle every killer perfectly and gets trash talked after the match.
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Yeah, but hag.
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Dear OP, maybe you will not believe me, but the Hag right now is an S-tier killer at it's best.=)
If you're up against a strong hag main, with best addons and best perks for her, it might be even worse, than having a good nurse.
Hag doesn't care about map, doesn't care about survivor perks, doesn't care about swf, the only thing she care is a random spot of the 3-gen.
Btw guys, if you see hag places traps below the hooked survivor - this hag is unexperienced and might be just started learning process.=)
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Hello Michi, big fan of yours, watched and learned this killer from your guides, strongest and most fun killer to play as for me, big thank you and I hope you'll keep your work.=)
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Usually that is done by people who never or very rarely play killer.
They think everyone plays the killer perfectly whether or not you ever played that said killer.
They forget that certain killers are played differently and have to get used to that playstyle.
When i played wraith i could win most of my games but if i play hag for example, i will struggle and lose more than i win.
Simply because I rarely played her.
But some people have a hard time thinking about that fact
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She needs a complete rework.
Her playstyle is the problem, not the perks/QoL changes. And don't get me wrong, she can't be played any other way so i don't blame those who do but we should fix the main problem.
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I think Hag is like most killers in that she has a bunch of useful-ish add-ons, a couple of good ones, some bad ones, and some oddballs that may or may not be useful but can maybe be fun to play with regardless? 🤷♂️ One interesting thing with Hag is she has a bunch of add-ons that stack so you can run two of the same kind to get a more powerful stacked specialized effect (e.g. stacking two speed add-ons or two durations, etc)
The Good
- Rope Necklet - Increases the Phantasm Trap's Setting speed by +15 %.
- Cypress Necklet - Increases the Phantasm Trap's Setting speed by +20 %.
- Swamp Orchid Necklet - Increases the Phantasm Trap's Setting speed by +25 %.
Increased setting speed can be nice for mid-chase zoning placements, such as when someone is on the opposite end of a pallet and you want to drop one on your end of it to zone them out if they try and loop. Personally I sometimes like to stack two of these together for super quick placements just because it’s kind of neat to watch. 🙂
- Powdered Eggshell - Increases the Phantasm Trap's Tripped duration by +25 %.
- Half Eggshell - Increases the Phantasm Trap's Tripped duration by +30 %.
- Cracked Turtle Egg - Increases the Phantasm Trap's Tripped duration by +35 %.
Increasing tripped duration can be handy if you’re looking to be able to occasionally teleport to the area a survivor was after you’ve, say, just carried or downed someone else or kicked a gen, etc. You don’t get an instant hit out of it but you do still get there quick enough to be in their immediate vicinity to apply pressure. As above, these do also stack, although double duration probably has diminishing returns.
- Dead Fly Mud - Increases the Phantasm Trap's Teleportation range by +20 %.
- Dragonfly Wings - Increases the Phantasm Trap's Teleportation range by +25 %.
- Dried Cicada - Increases the Phantasm Trap's Teleportation range by +30 %.
Teleportation range is useful in allowing you to create wider webs or patrol a bit farther away from you web while still being in range to react to it. Since her base range is 40 meters these add-ons give 8+ extra range each so double stacking them allows you to teleport across over half the map.
- Pussy Willow Catkins - The Auras of Survivors tripping a Phantasm Trapare revealed to The Hag for 3 seconds.
- Willow Wreath - The Auras of Survivors tripping a Phantasm Trap are revealed to The Hag for 5 seconds.
Aura reveals after a trap is triggered can be useful information when you are immediately teleporting to get an instant hit by showing you where the survivor ran to. Stacking these two together is also really interesting since it shows you the survivor’s aura for a full 8 seconds, or 10 or 12 seconds with Lethal Pursuer (not sure if the Lethal adds +2 seconds to both or just the trap aura in general). It’s kind of like getting Lethal Pursuer mini-pings the entire match. 🙂
- Rusty Shackles - Tripped Phantasm Traps do not spawn a Mud Phantasm. Tripped Phantasm Traps do not give any indication of having been tripped to Survivors.
This is I think her most popular add-on? Survivors not realizing they triggered a trap is obviously really useful. There is a bit of a downside in that it also prevents the camera swivels to veer survivors away from good routes and distraction from a trap going off can cause survivors to make bad decisions, but he benefit outweighs that negative. Personally I kind of like to double stack one of the other types of add-ons above since those are kind of fun effects stylewise, but there’s no denying Rusty is a solid add-on.
The Bad
- Bog Water - Increases the Phantasm Trap's Trigger range by +10 %.
- Bloodied Water - Increases the Phantasm Trap's Trigger range by +20 %.
- Bloodied Mud - Increases the Phantasm Trap's Trigger range by +30 %.
Increasing Trigger range is really bad in general, as in I think you’d be better off not running any add-on than running these. If anything you want the trigger range as small as possible so that the Phantasm appears as close to the triggering survivor as possible for a quick hit. Extending the range just makes it more likely he trap will be wasted. The only use I could possibly see for these is to combine it with Waterlogged Shoe or maybe Grandma’s Heart in The Odd category below, which fits those gimmicks but isn’t something I would call “effective”.
- Disfigured Ear Triggering a Phantasm Trapcauses the Survivor to be deafened for 6 seconds.
I wish I could put this in the Good category since Deafness is an interesting effect on paper, but in practice I just don’t think Survivors being unable to hear anything for 6 seconds is going to do very much at all other than make them wonder why all of a sudden they can’t hear the gens or the Hag following them. (Making he killer Deaf for an extended period would be a pretty useful survivor perk though!)
The Odd
- Scarred Hand - Mud Phantasms have collision with Survivors. Grants 300 % bonus Bloodpoints in the Deviousness Category. Disables The Hag's ability to teleport to tripped Phantasm Traps. Scarred Hand trumps all other Add-ons.
I could have put this in The Bad since the benefit of Collision doesn’t make up for the lack of teleport, but it does have a niche use combined with Waterlogged Shoe below so I’ll be generous and say it’s a gimmick rather than outright bad.
- Grandma's Heart - Triggering a Phantasm Trapcauses the following effects for its tripped duration: Suppresses the Terror Radius of The Hag. Increases the Fake Terror Radius of the Mud Phantasms to 16 metres.
This one is hard to judge. Undetectability and moving your terror radius around the map can be a strong effect, but the duration of the individual triggers is too short for me to qualify this as Good. However there are some interesting possible combinations with this and perks which rely on your terror radius (e.g. Coulrophobia, Unnerving Presence, Septic Touch) since it can effectively mean your terror radius is hopping around covering a wider portion of the map that is always including at least one survivor who triggered the trap so there could be some fun gimmicks with this to try, maybe. 🙂
- Waterlogged Shoe - Increases the Movement speed of The Hag by +4.5 %to 4.6 m/s. Survivors suffer from a Hindered Status Effect while inside a Phantasm Trap's Trigger range, reducing their Movement speed by -9 %. Disables the ability of The Hag to teleport to triggered Phantasm Traps. Waterlogged Shoe trumps all other Add-ons.
This one is definitely weaker than teleporting but, if you combine it with Scarred Hand or Bloody Mud, is actually one of my favorite meme ways to play Hag. 😄 I’m a simple killer who likes basic chases and this add-on makes Hag a normal, basic chaser that can significantly slow survivors in a chase within her protected area. I’ve actually even had surprisingly decent results with this meme style, so I’m putting it in Odd versus Bad even though in my head I know in principle running this is a terrible idea.
- Mint Rag Grants The Hag the ability to teleport to any untripped Phantasm Trap at will. Mint Rag applies a cool-down of 15 seconds to teleports between un-tripped Phantasm Traps. This cool-down does not extend to regular teleports to tripped Phantasm Traps.
Mint Rag is I think the ultimate playstyle variant add-on, I can’t say for sure if this is better or worse than her normal version because that 15 second cooldown definitely hurts her ability to chain traps together but comes with this potentially really powerful ability to proactively teleport straight to any trap on the map without it having to have been triggered. This is an add-on that I feel like if I played Hag a ton and really wanted to develop a play style around just this specific add-on it could be a lot of fun and also be effective but it would require enough extra work and time to flesh out that I just don’t do it. 🤷♂️
Anyway, that’s my less-than-expert take on Hag’s add-ons. A bunch of them are kind of useful passive effects, some of them are downright bad, and some are gimmicks that aren’t all that effective but can be fun to try.
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I havent seen a hag since HAWKINS. i am not even kapping.
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I agree with basically everything here.
I just want to add that Grandma's Heart does not allow the hag to use terror radius perks in the same way that Dark Devotion does, as the phantasm terror radius is not "real". You can't, for example, pick someone up with starstruck and expose someone on the other side of the map.
Otherwise, yeah, body blocker might be a fun gimmick, but it is not close to the power other killers reach with their iri add-ons.
I would LOVE to see a rework for the disfigured ear. I feel like there is some interesting potential there.
ALSO, I would like to hijack this thread for a second to remind people that Hag has had an audio bug for almost a year. When you trigger a hag trap, the phantasm has NO terror radius until the hag teleports. This means that delaying a teleport tells survivors exactly when you decide to show up, giving them a ton of extra information.
I have already made bug report threads about this.
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She's only gotten buffs for years, she'll do just fine being the easy to abuse hook trap machine that 99.99% of her players use her as still. MYC is still a thing.
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Good point on Grandma's Heart's terror radius being a Fake Terror Radius and not a real one, thanks!
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You are supposed to place traps so you can get people while you chase.
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Not sure how that would make her popular. Especially if people felt the need to always use Urban Evasion.
I also think Hag is just design wise not very fun for many people.
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Maybe stop hook camping? seems like a skill issue.
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Isn´t it ironic how people complain that holding m1 is boring but also don´t like killers that break the running in circles or shift w meta?
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The Dredge.
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Rework? Hag is perfectly fine! People naturally do stupid stuff when going against Hag and play bad against her.
Shes not even top 5 but you want her to get reworked? Don't be ridiculous!
She's not weak at all. She's right after top 5, Reassurance or not!
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Guys 1 perk does not dictate, change or determine how good a killer is. So what if Reassurance gives Hag trouble its still not a guaranteed loss for her at all, plus honestly what are the chances of two or three survivors running Reassurance in "that" game where they go against a Hag who already is a rare killer!?
Its extremely low so why are people complaining again?
Its like survivors running Calm Spirit but not going against a Doctor or vice versa.
Probability is way too low to even consider these so called dominating or op perks against certain killers, that's the reality!
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She needs a rework. Since Dredge can teleport during chases, all over the map with basically 0 consequence, has a second ability and is not slower than other teleporting killers, Haggie deserves a speed boost. Regular killer speed
Her add-ons are like old potatoes. Her add-ons are the thing that needs a rework the most since their boring and useless, and she also needs bug fixes. She is a baguette, completely forgotten and neglected by the devs. She has bugs that are a year old, its stupid
I wanna see a gen slowing add-on, idk what that would be or look like but i want it; add-ons that add a negative effect on survivors such as hemorrhage? yes, why not. etc etc
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Your comparing Dredge's teleporting ability to Hag's and there's no comparison at all because she outclasses him in this department. He can be compared to Demigorgon yes but not Hag, she does this way better than he does.
Hag's green add-ons are very strong (trap setting speed and teleport distance) so i don't know what your getting at here. Yes her purple and iri's arent great nor are her brown add-ons but she doesn't need them and her yellow addons are decent. Heck even "body block Hag" got buffed from the previous iteration of herself.
What bugs does she have? I honestly dont know so tell me.
Hag is perfectly fine and doesnt need a whole rework like Freddy! Freddy "needed" a rework because he was too weak then "Forever Freddy" came around and ge got nerfed from a top 4 position to the position he is in now which is B tier or mid!
Hag's tiering has always been relatively the same with her being either S tier or A+!
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The Dregde is more powerful than Hag at teleporting, sorry.
He does not have a limit to how far he can go, he can stay in a locker and camp, or travel from locker to locker until he finds someone, teleport cooldown is basically nothing, during nightfall, he "sees" where survivors are, he needs 0 preparation when the match starts, he can teleport mid-chase as much as he wants.
Hag's addons are useless and the fact that you boosted the trap setting speed as a strong addon tells me you dont play hag or dont know how to play her. Her brown add-ons are in fact her best addons. Anything higher is useless, you don't need it, it's like filling
Body block Hag is a meme build
About the bugs, her terror radius is bugged or rather her phantasm's ; sometimes early in the game, the traps you lay disappear and you need to waste even more time, laying them again; camera flip doesnt always work, which allows survivors to run far from your traps and even if you insta teleport you will miss; there is a delay or to me it looks like lag, when you insta teleport and can make you lose hits; your phantasm not looking at the survivor, so you teleport and dont know where to hit; range add-ons not working; either the heart or the ears is bugged or both tbh i dont care about those to remember. Grabbing survivors has always been bugged on Hag, for actual years. Ye, sometimes she can do a grab, but most times she either gets stuck in the grab animation or doesnt get into it at all, when she should and on any other killer, said hit, wouldve been a direct grab
Shall I continue?
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Reassurance doesn't destroy Hag. I barely even see it getting ran in most games.
Off the Record is worse. A survivor can run around triggering traps willy nilly for 80 seconds or until the Hag hits them.
Base kit Borrowed Time is really bad for Hag's traps. All survivors now know that they have it now and can use it to quickly nullify any trap they saw the Hag place while they were hooked. At least with old BT they had to notice they had endurance and use it and it filled a perk slot.
But Hag is still A tier... unless the survivors bring flashlights then she's D tier.
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No he "is not" more powerful at teleporting than Hag because one he transverses the lockers at different paces and can have a locker locked.
Hag has counterplay as well but her teleporting is overall better, period!
Hag's addons are useless? Lol you clearly dont play or know Hag to make such an assanine comment. Her brown addons are trash! Do you play at a low mmr? Only weaker players or players that play low mmr would make such a comment.
As far as the rest of what you say those things dont affect me because im sweaty with Hag ie i use her best add-ons and builds. Body Block Hag may seem gimmicky but dont get it twisted i very much catch bodies with her.
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