DBD Problems and Potential Fixes 2/10 Tunneling off Hook
This is a series of recommendations to hopefully change the game for the better. I am posting each section separate, but a lot of them are connected and work much better understanding the other changes. Some are more Killer sided, and some are more Survivor sided, but overall I think it levels the playing field in a positive way.
If you want to read the draft I am posting the sections from you can follow this google doc link.
With that said, here is part 2.
Tunneling off Hook
Allies going for the quick save only for the killer to turn right back around and plop you back on hook is really frustrating, especially in dead zones. Also for the killer it makes sense that someone with half the health states would be the juicier target, but what about when you want to target the unhooker who refuses to make themselves a target by hiding?
Proposed Solution:
The first measure would be to make survivors that are unhooked both invisible, and lose collision for the basekit/perk bonus granted duration. Their grunts of pain would be silenced, their aura could not be read, and they would leave no blood or scratch marks. This would function like the Spirit’s power localized to the unhooked survivor, Lucky Break, and Off The Record programming wise. “Conspicuous Actions” would remove the benefits prematurely.
Also, anti-tunnel sources of endurance do not put you in Deep Wound. They are meant to be a deterrent for tunneling, but instead work as “well they can’t do anything else now”. The old anti-tunnel worst/best case scenario was a BT hit into a DS proc into a DH. Now if the killer hits the BT, basekit or not, then there is no OTR or DH to save them from a tunnel.
Another feature the killer can use is a Snuff Boon action taking 1s at the hook within 30s after the unhooking, and it will cause the rescuer (even if a Survivor rescued themself) to scream, revealing their position similar to a Doctor Blast or a Rancor gen pop. Calm Spirit will silence the scream, but not prevent the location reveal. This will also give a 5% haste boost for 5s to the killer when the action is complete. This is to help make up for the time spent in the animation, as well as getting your bearings and finding the revealed survivor. This is not to be enough to get a hit, then snowball another hit by snuffing the hook to cheese extra speed, just enough to make up for lost time. The new anti-tunnel effects mentioned above would not function in the endgame after the gens are done.
Additionally, if you are hooked without performing a “Conspicuous Action”, your remaining hook timer still applies, rather than you getting an extra state. Note that the timer will still count down the full 60s, even if in chase, slugged, or carried. Survivors get the benefit of hook/unhook perks for the remainder of this timer (including an extra Reassurance usage), but killers do not, in order to prevent Devour Hope or other unintended cheese. (Eg. You are hooked for 10s, tunneled through invis/BT over the course of the next 20s, then carried to hook over 10s, then you still have 20s of your 1st stage hook. In addition the killer does not get the benefit of their scourge hook on the 2nd 1st hook against you.) This feature is also disabled in the endgame.
Corresponding Perk Changes:
Guardian perk would be buffed to extend the basekit 5s silence/invis similar to how BT extends the endurance. And the numbers would be changed to match BT (4/6/8 to 6/8/10), which would also allow for the Invis to work in the endgame for up to the 10s.
Comments
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You know, I would completely agree with this only during certain stages of the trial. The only time an effect like this would be acceptable would be during the early game, and this would be defined as the time period before the first two generators are completed. After that stage of the game, you've entered the mid game at which point the invis/silence should be disabled. That being said, the current 10s of endurance + haste should still apply regardless of what stage of the game you're in due to the fact that "playing fair" should matter less and less as the game begins to come to an end (thus the reason DS + OTR deactivating after the last gen pops is a good thing, Hope having an infinite duration is a good thing, noed proccing, rancor proccing, and whatever else). At 1-0 gens hard tunneling, camping, slugging, etc. is to be expected from the killer, especially if they're in a losing position or attempting to snowball.
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To that end what about 1s per gen remaining? Also any thoughts on Guardian being the BT equivalent for these new features? I personally like that since it is a general perk now so it can function as a non-pay to bandaid solution, as some people have complained about Reassurance of being. Also the google doc has ideas for buffs for spreading the pain, and disincentivizing early kills. Part 5 takes that into account. Sadly the automated spam protection prevented me from posting any more discussions today, so I couldn't post each section right now.
That being said though, just because we have been conditioned to expect the killer to play more ruthless the fewer gens there are, doesn't mean we should accept that premise as correct. I feel as though them only being active while gens need to be done is a good enough time frame. If in my example of someone on 2nd hook instead of 1st being tunneled they only have a 20s timer to be camped out by the killer to die. I would say that is still a reasonable timeframe if you want to commit to someone being dead instead of chasing the unhooking survivor.
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Its as I say, there is nothing wrong with re-downing and re-hooking and so there just isn't any reason to try and punish killers for survivors bad plays.
A change like this would just let survivors get even more safe unsafe hooks for no reason.
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Given that the safety of unhooking action currently lies solely in the killer's hands, this seeks to balance that notion. In most cases the killer should be chasing after the rescuer, and it isn't the killer's fault if the rescuer hid, forcing their hand in chasing the hooked survivor. This gives the killer the needed tools to find cowards, while not overly punishing survivors for their teammate's misplays.
To your first point I agree, nothing wrong with re-downing and re-hooking, as long as the player had a chance to do something other than be immediately chased off of hook. Having you be punished for a teammate's decision is bad design imo. The people rewarded for good decisions and punished for bad should always be the ones making those decisions.
To address your second point if the unsafe safe unhook was so unsafe, then surely the person rescuing will go down easily since they put themselves in a bad position.
Edit:Fixed grammar (survivor's -> survivors, it wasn't possessive)
Post edited by mizark3 on0 -
Usually, I would object to this... as Cocky Survivors whom complain about being tunnel, Usually does some stupid to warrant the tunnel.
Scenario A.) I hook a Survivor, I leave to go find another, couldn't find anyone so I return to hook. I only can find hooked Survivors running out in the open and cannot find the Rescuer whom decides to go hide in a locker or behind a Bush. I do not have time to waste going search for the Rescuer, yet the injured and recently unhooked Survivor is running like a idiot and asking to be a target.
Scenario 2.) I hook a Survivor in a basement, I leave the basement and go pop a generator far away, the Survivors flees and head straight for the shack where the basement is, while the unhooking happens. I too busy focusing on chasing the one guys, maybe score some injures... but.. the cheeky unhooked Survivor body blocks me and expect me to hit them. Standing there and do everything in their 10 seconds window to make me waste time not going through their model so I can successfully down their teammates. Now, I am a dirty tunneller, because I am force to either hit the unhook Survivor, I am forced to wait out his 10 second Endurance, and I am forced to let his teammates making stupid plays and mistakes and I cannot assert punishment for that.
If I wanted to change hardcover camping and tunnelling, I would simply make it so the Survivors that just got unhooked as no darn collision so they can no longer take hits, and I can go right through them to find the Rescuer and attack them. Also, it would be slightly nice if I can temporarily aura reveal the Rescuer so I have more incentive to stay away from the unhooked Survivor or something.
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So you agree with my suggested changes? I apologize for not fully understanding you, but your last paragraph has the exact changes I listed as if I did not suggest them (with some more in mine). The lack of collision and effective invisibility for 5s, and boon snuff action at hook for revealing the rescuer, with a speed boost to make up for lost time.
I do understand if beyond the initial 5s the survivor bodyblocks then that should be punishable. Perhaps protection hits disqualifying the re-hook timer could prevent that abuse, since the survivor that doesn't want to be re-targeted can run away from their team.
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"Just because we have been conditioned to expect the killer to play more ruthless the fewer gens there are, doesn't mean we should accept that premise as correct"
that premise is exactly correct and should be treated as such.
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"We have bad design resulting in severely unfun scenarios for both sides and we should strive to never fix them or analyze why they happen" /s
But to be serious why? Why is that premise correct? Why should it be treated as such?
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I'm all for buffing guardian, but being "invis" like that during end game sounds unfair to the killer.
Somewhat related: kind of wish there was a perk in the same vain as Guardian and BT that granted the unhooked player an exhaustion free sprint burst when in the killer's terror radius.
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It only lasts the perk granted 10s in endgame, which is the same as the current endurance duration. If the killer was going to hard tunnel off of hook it protects them in a different way than endurance. It also still requires the player with Guardian to get the unhook without getting hit twice in both the process and shortly afterward. In addition it can actually backfire if the survivors wanted the unhooked survivor to take an endurance hit bodyblocking on route to the exit gate.
Edit: the both process -> both the process, must have mixed it in my mind while typing
Post edit additional thought, overall I think it provides a decent alternative, with its own risks and rewards, to the current bodyblock train at endgame that is currently done to rescue a survivor.
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What is incorrect about increasing pressure to prevent yourself from losing? In what world is that unreasonable? The goal for the killer is to, and hold onto something because this may be a lot, kill the survivors. Obviously as a game, the goal is to have fun, which is why I discourage early tunneling/camping (again, early being within the first 2 gens). However, to expect the killer to play the way that you think they should all game is firstly entitled as hell, and secondly it just completely ignores the fact that killers cannot be expected to play in a way that fits the "survivor handbook for killers" all game. Pressure is something that needs to be created in order to win a game of killer (huge shocker there), and that means if you need to remove someone from the game in order to do so, you need to remove someone from the game in order to do so. If you don't have a kill or a good number of hook states by the time there are 2-3 gens remaining, you are not in a good place at all and the only thing you can do at this point of the game is begin to apply pressure through slugging and tunneling (I can't ever endorse camping outside of the endgame because it literally loses you the game) and frankly you can't get mad at them for trying to turn a losing game for them around, nor should they be punished for trying to do so (as if the 80 seconds of endurance and 10 seconds of 10% haste + DS aren't enough for a decent survivor to discourage the killer from tunneling).
I bet you wouldn't even bat an eye at 3 survivors each splitting on separate generators while the third runs the killer whilst holding W to pre-drop every pallet (I.e playing at max efficiency), yet this is exactly what happens at the absolute highest level of survivor gameplay and that has not changed. Where is the proposed punishment for gameplay like this? How do you propose the killer pressure 4 survivors at once if they're only capable of being in one place at one time? What if the generator is incredibly safe and just ties into a strong window or pallet that hasn't been pre-dropped yet? Well, you know there's this thing that the killer can do to match survivor's pressuring gens that you insist is problematic.
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Increasing pressure to prevent a loss should usually come from skilled play, not cheesing mechanics. I agree, what world is a cheesed mechanic being "needed" or feeling "needed" reasonable? They should kill the survivors through squeezing hope and providing despair, not by exploiting bad design. I never expect a killer to play any way in particular, other than Nurses to 4 minute bleedout me on the floor. However, there should be greater rewards for playing in a more fun and fair manner, and greater punishments for the opposite for both sides. You appear to not be able to see the forest for the trees in this instance. The mechanics should be refined such that there is always hope for both sides to pull off a win. I also believe both sides can win simultaneously in asymmetrical games, with degrees of success for each side.
I do bat an eye at 3 survivors splitting on gens being the most efficient least enjoyable gameplay, and in part 1 of the series I sought to reverse that. This also comes with Good skill checks on co-op gens providing Loud Noises. When survivors are encouraged to group on gens then if the killer decides to disrupt that they are brought greater rewards by getting 2 or 3 survivors displaced at the cost of going to 1 gen. I did qualify in the original post that the changes should be thought of with each section in mind, and individual sections may appear more killer or survivor sided. Ultimately I believe the total changes are roughly fair for both sides. You should also check out part 5, where killers are granted a lesser basekit Grim Embrace for spreading the pain, that can also apply twice.
I had not thought of one player spamming pallets and to counter that abuse case such as on The Game, an off the cuff thought to counter that would have a cumulative 10s (number WIP) delay on dropping pallets. A survivor that drops a pallet has a 10s cooldown to drop another pallet, and upon dropping the next one it stacks to 20s, 30s, 40s etc. I think having the chase end and not be continued within the current pallet timer doubled (that is if you are at 20s, you need to not be chased for the full 20s and 20s after that timer is up) would be a good reset condition, as well as being injured or downed. This could also be adjusted to only affect the lowest hooked survivor, or not apply/apply a shorter timer if you are the most hooked survivor.
Overall I believe you mistake my intentions and think I am a "Survivor Main", due to not reading all the sections in their entirety. This is a survivor favored section because it is a killer abuse case being addressed, just as part 1 is a survivor abuse case being addressed. Just because we have a current "solution" that feels bad for both sides does not mean we should never seek improvement. That being said another possibility could be a different rubberband mechanic for when a killer has less hook actions than gens fully completed or the expected number, but that should only apply when targeting different survivors.
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