Hook Camping.

The solution shouldn't have to be to buy the dlc.

shrine of secrets dawg, theres a chance

The solution is to make killers more powerful. What? Am I crazy? No - it will make sense if you listen.

When I play killer I will always camp someone to stage two if I lose two gens before getting my first hook. The pace of the game is simply too fast if survivors focus on slamming generators.

Imagine for example that a base mechanic were added to the game that if a killer were beyond 20m away from a hook then the entity would block one generator from being worked on until that survivor was rescued. However this would be different in that the killer could kick the generator and no one could work the generator until the survivor were rescued or they died on the hook if the killer were beyond 20m.

This would literally force the killer to want to leave the area to block the generator. This would force the survivor whose gen was blocked to go and make the save.

The underlying problem is that the survivor objective can be finished in 4 minutes but the killer objective takes 6-9 minutes. This is why killers tunnel.

-"The test was made and killers failed in this regard."

What test was this? LOL.

Survivors tunnel gens so killers tunnel survivors. Since the survivor objective is shorter the killer is forced to do something to "gain" more time. That is why they tunnel.

"No. Survivors don't "tunnel" gens"

So that means you often get a generator to 20% then leave that generator for no reason and get another generator to 20% and then make sure all the generators are at 20% before working any generator from 20-40%?

No - You've never done that. You try to complete a whole generator.

Also killer really didn't get more powerful with the 6.1 patch. The best killer perks were nerfed to oblivion. Gens were made 10 seconds longer but now everyone is using Prove Thyself and Hyperfocus. Good players are completing gens faster than ever before. Breaking a pallet 10% faster does nothing - streamers made videos before the patch showing what 100% faster pallet breaking looked like. It did nothing because most maps have insane pallet density throughout the map.

Pop Goes the Weasel used to save me about 120-180 seconds per game. I did the math in another thread and on average kicking low-middle progress generators only saves 50-60 seconds with nerfed pop.

Meanwhile Survivors get 10 seconds of borrowed time base kit. Killers don't get any perk to compesnate. Much less Borrowed time was the only meta perk that got buffed instead of nerfed. It makes no sense.

"it's your fault you let them tunnel your gens, accept your skill issues"

I watched Otz play a map on Lerys within the last two weeks. They were a SWF using callouts and finished two gens before he ever got a chase. Otz finally caught one and camped them in the basement.

So you're calling Otz bad becuase he camped someone to death to apply pressure? Seems Not Legit.

DBD has rules that massively favor the survivors. That is why killers need to camp to win. Baby killers (usually this means survivor mains) playing vs baby survivors can do the no perk AFK challenge with any killer and win. It's not like that when you face teams who play as if they are trying to win a $100,000 tournament. People love to say "those teams are rare" - they might be for you but they are not for me, Otz, Truetalent and most of the big name streamers. I'm not a streamer but I get very skilled players just like I see on those streams.

"they still will genrush no matter what". Because that's true."

And that is why killers tunnel. When survivors efficiently repair gens you are forced to tunnel to apply pressure. You can hook one person three times and they die or you can hook three different people and you have nothing. This is the same as applying 90 seconds of repair to one generator or applying 90 seconds of repair to three generators.

If you want to remove tunneling from the game that's fine but you have to remove the ability for survivors to tunnel gens as effectively as they do now. Then you can wave a magic wand and make killers not want to tunnel. Unless you do both there is no way the game can change. Why? Because if you hard limit tunneling the killers will stop playing because there will be no way to beat good players on maps that are overall just too safe with too many pallets/vaults.

The game would be very different if the devs had done something like removed 1 pallet or vault from the map as you rank up moving from ash to yellow to green to purple to red ranks. Some of the maps would probably be fair if they played at "red ranks" with -4 pallets. Imagine for example any of the farm maps with -4 pallets. What if the Shack pallet starts removed at the start of the game?

-"Tunneling is focusing single survivor just after unhook with single intention"

It's a waste of time to debate you if you think for a second survivors don't do the same thing to break 3 gens. Getting my gens tunneled out is just as frustrating when playing killer as it is to get camped and tunneled out of a game as survivor.

The difference is that most survivors feel it's fine to tunnel generators because the generator asset is a NPC object even though it is tied to the killer's win condition.

Personally just make DS 5 seconds again. Basekit BT being 10 seconds is pretty solid. I just find DS underwhelming unless I can position myself next to a strong loop. You could disable Killer powers as well, which would hurt the top Killers like Nurse more than M1 Killers like Trapper.

I don't see as much Reassurance as I thought I would (I wish you could use it above basement, but I guess it's good for Killers to have a strong place) and honestly Kinship is underrated, but best used in a SWF. Off the Record is really the best anti-tunnel perk IMO.

In terms of Killers who camp / tunnel because it's effective, if they read the situation correctly camping / tunneling is not the best option. I believe Killers think they can get away with it more because DS isn't perceived as strong enough so they don't respect it anymore. But it's understandable to think that getting a survivor out of the game as quickly as possible is the best way to control the game and ultimately get more kills. Because it is. The question is how quickly that can be accomplished and what you give up in terms of opportunity cost. If it looks like tunneling / camping won't cost you multiple gens, then it's likely the right choice.

Then there are Killers who will just facecamp even when it's clear they are throwing the game. I don't know how the game could distinguish between the two, but it's just unfortunate for that first survivor. Hopefully his team can punish that behavior, but usually these Killers don't even care. I don't think BHVR could nerf camping hard enough, but slowing down hook progress couldn't hurt IMO.

The only time Survivors "tunnel gens" is when they GenB4Fren, when they pop the gen they are currently working on before going for the rescue. That is also the strategy Survivors are supposed to do to counter camping.

Popping a gen (or all gens for that matter) doesn't mean the killer cannot play the game anymore, and as another poster mentioned that would be like a killer stopping a chase when they are 10m away from a survivor without a reason to.

Breaking a Pallet does nothing - a normal 4.6 killer chasing a normal 4.0 survivor will catch up after a 2.6s pallet kick in 17.33s. The improved 2.34 now takes 15.6s. That is 1.733 saved chase seconds per pallet. Also the old speed boost and hit cooldown gave an estimated 20s of an injured survivor running, now it gives ~18s. Those are not nothing nor insignificant.

Pop vs other gen regression - Old pop could be applied to whatever gen you want, but you have to take the travel time you lose into account. How many of those 120-180s did you lose going towards a gen, kicking it, and not chasing a survivor providing pressure. Also SH:PR regression numbers were unchanged, and most other gen kick perks were buffed. Also Eruption gives 25 incapacitated seconds in addition to the 9 seconds of regression. That makes every average value Eruption 34s compared to Pop's 20s. Eruption could also have more or fewer, so in a best case scenario Eruption gives you 84 gen seconds when hitting 3 people trying to prevent a 3-gen or finish a final gen.

Basekit BT no compensation for killers - Killers received the lion's share of the advantage here. The old circumstance for countering hard tunnel off hook would be 1. Hit into BT causing Deep Wound 2. DS after getting downed and 3. DH to delay the chase even longer. The new circumstance is 1. Hit into (basekit or perk) BT causing Deep Wound 2. OTR oh wait Deep Wound blocks that hmm well maybe 3. DH to delay? nope, Deep Wound also blocks that. So before there were 3 meaningful steps to counter tunneling, now there is only one. What if someone didn't have multiple of those perk effects? Well then in the old case the survivor could fake out DS by hiding in a locker. The killer now has to risk DS whether it is there or not. In the current case if you cannot hear the survivor's grunts of pain you swing instantly (to proc OTR), and if you do hear them then you count to 10 (or wait for the visible speed boost to run out). This claim also is ignoring the above mathed out basekit T1 Brutal Strength and STBFL at 2 stacks.

And that's why I bring reinsurance also to my soloQ. It's not perfect, but it works against this

it doesn't work other than filling the perk slot

It's a vicious cycle... Camping and Tunneling due to Genrush and Genrush due to Camping and Tunneling

(Sigh*)

Yes some of the changes were to address this... but other changes made it easier

The 5-10 second BT bsekit.... 90 charges on Gens

Prove Thyself, Toolboxes, BNP are viewed as must haves at this point... which lessen what other perks and Items to bring (for the most part)

The changes to Gen regression was both good and bad... Killers aren't using Ruin as much, but they are using Call Of Brine/ Overcharge/ PR/ Eruption... which can be a problem

But they didn't think of multiple Survivors on a Gen (going from 90 seconds to 56 seconds... unless I'm missing something)... And Gen regression being .25 charges per second make Gen take longer to regress any Gen

SO in my opinion to stop this Camping and Tunneling... the Killer must be incentivized to go away from the Hook... and perks aren't enough

Raising the base Gen regression might be something they could try (it'll even lessen the "4 Gen regression builds)

Changing Deep Wounds might be another thing they could do (But that'll only help Legion and Deathslinger)

Obviously, it goes without saying that Regression perks will have to be changed... same with everything Gen related

Maps are also to blame thanks for pointing that out

The Devs have said to not take what they give out (stats) seriously... and the 61/39% are proof of that

How many matches did someone quit? How many matches had someone suicide?

It will take wide sweeping changes to lessen Camping and Tunneling... and that is because the Skill in this game has reached it's limit

Also how many matches were over before the Killer has gotten 4 (separate) hooks?

Since you failed to address all of the other points I made in that comment I shall have to assume that is because you now agree and find them to be true.

As far as Survivor's committing time to progressed gens, that is an action that has costs and benefits. As Killer you gain for more value when the Survivor falls prey to the "sunk cost fallacy", and tries to go back on the gen you already kicked. Now they are in a disadvantageous position and must commit to dropping a nearby pallet to slow you down or give up a free hit. You can then kick the gen again and start back where you were before with the advantage of a damage state on the Survivor or environment's limited resources. Also if they go back again then they can either give another free hit into a down, or your chase with another Survivor can proc Eruption on them, making them waste a potential ~34 gen seconds.

A Killer committing to hard chase off of hook or select out of 2 Survivors on a gen the Survivor who was hooked before has no such risks, and only has rewards. Even if the Killer immediately goes for the unhooked Survivor, they can hear out OTR or not so they can know whether to swing early or count to 11.

As far as incentive to hook unique Survivors I thought of a solution in my thread series "DBD Problems and Potential Fixes", specifically "5/10 Spreading the Pain VS Killing Early", which would basically give a diminished Grim Embrace basekit that can proc twice. Overall though I think the 6.1.0 changes have swung a bit too far in Killer's favor, and giving your suggestion of more carrot would be unwise. At this point I think the stick should be applied. I would go as far as to reverse your suggestion and speed up Survivor's gen speeds on non-unique/spread hooks instead. Probably 2-4% bonus to each Survivor that wasn't hooked, and doubles if already existing. That way with the toggle tunnel on 6 hooks between 2 survivors the 2 remaining Survivors get 96% gen speed bonus each (if 3%). I would even lock in the bonus for the new minimum when a survivor is killed. This would obviously need refining but base concept of reversing your idea seems sound.

I am of the belief that you can't force someone to play fun or fair, but you should make it such a bad idea as to punish you when you choose to do so, regardless of Killer or Survivor player.

Edit: As -> and, it was supposed to be and when I revised the sentence from one that used as

"Since you failed to address all of the other points I made in that comment I shall have to assume that is because you now agree and find them to be true."

Sith Logic doesn't apply to a discussion - so no.

-"I am of the belief that you can't force someone to play fun or fair, but you should make it such a bad idea as to punish you when you choose to do so, regardless of Killer or Survivor player."

You should familiarize yourself about the bet betwen the sun and the wind about who can make a man take off his jacket. No matter how hard the wind blows the man firmly grasps his jacket. The sun gently beams warmth down on the man and he chooses to take it off.

Killers are being forced to tunnel vs strong survivors to have any kind of chance at a fair game. Some killers do choose to tunnel in games where they don't need to do that and other people do it without realizing the current game is not "tryhard".

The best reward we had for scoring multiple different hooks on multiple survivors was Pop goes the Weasel/BBQ. Those were eliminated from being valuable and look what happened - we have more camping as a result. Killer needs some kind of base kit reward for hooking new survivors. No joke - Dying Light Base kit (with the survivor buffs removed) would have been a solid buff for killer. Survivor got BT for free and Killer didn't get a free perk.

Not one. They got several half petks. Half brutal strength, 2 save the best stacks, some old thana stacks AND to top it off reduced survivor sprint. Killers got way more then just 1 basekit BT into their basekit

I never said I was his fan. I think you have a biased opinion. I've watched almost all of the big killer main streamers. I usually don't watch true play specifically. I watch people who are entertaining or have the potential to teach me something.

I can play Nemesis better than both of them but that's basically the only killer I play when I play killer and they play the whole roster. Otz for example often goes for very risky tentacle hits that rarely land (often including multiple hits out of a window). One of the last times I saw true play I saw him miss a whip against a survivor that was looping a main wall building. The survivor juked out at the last second so the whip didn't land and he was not sure why that missed. If you move your whip outside to in then there is no room for the survivor to dodge.

Are they bad at Nemesis? No - but they lack the Nuance and dedication to playing one killer all the time.

If you compare the two Otz is much worse at Huntress and slightly worse as Blight. I have not seen either really play Nurse in a long time so I can't comment there. Both play Spirit well. We could go down the entire list but its a moot point. Since I did mention it previously Otz is the worse Nemesis of the two.

If you watch both regularly you will notice that they are basically in the same time zone but one of them ends their show before noon my time and one often streams until 6pm (and that used to be later). What does that mean? When you are playing the game matters tremendously. If you log in to play killer at 4am during the week you are not going to face off against many swf at all. But if you play killer past midnight until about 2 am that is all you will see : ultra try hard swfs.

I doubt you are good enough to really say you are better than either at DBD (except at one specific killer) so saying one of them is bad makes you look bad. They're getting paid to play video games all day and you are not.

What the fruit are you talking about "Sith Logic"? I made 5 points/counterpoints and you only decided to address one of them. That to me means you either cannot defend your position or you know you are wrong on the remaining points. If that were not the case you would have made an attempt to "correct" me. I can understand instances of not knowing how to explain how someone is wrong, but that is typically accompanied by a statement to the effect of "You are wrong, but I can't quite explain how." or "You're not wrong Walter, you're just an ...".

Sun/Wind - Strange, because to me the sun is a blazing inferno of torture. To escape the additional heat I would take whatever steps necessary to avoid such torment. I would avoid the stick/punishment of the sun in your proverb. Also why would the man want to lose a tool used to prevent the extremes in climate? If it rained (which would be common in a storm with heavy winds) and he had no jacket, he would be in an even worse scenario. That "bet" is one of many sayings that are wildly inaccurate when the slightest bit of logic is applied. When they can pass basic scrutiny they are fine, such as The Boy Who Cried Wolf, but your example is an absurdism. Sorry but (wrong lesson) / (stupid) sayings are a Pet Peeve of mine.

Killers are being forced to tunnel to have any chance of a fair game against strong survs - I have consistently been gaining net MMR over my Killer matches (2k with 1 hatch or better), and I have no need to hard tunnel or camp survivors. I do occasionally return at the 45-60s mark of a hook to punish gen greed, but they had 45s to reach the hook and rescue before that happens, and they often do so. Killers actively choosing to tunnel and camp are failing to learn macro gameplay, Killer power niche interactions, and reading Survivors in mindgames. They are self-sabotaging their long-term potential growth for short-term gains, a malady affecting all too much of the modern world in general. By invoking such a crutch, they begin to rely on it for victories, and throw hissy-fits when they lose.

The best reward for varied hooks Pop/BBQ and killers got no basekit perks compared to basekit BT - BBQ yes, but Pop rewarded hooks, regardless of who they were on. So in that case Pop didn't reward varied hooks. Survs got 10s endurance, which was the old T2 BT, but they lost 2 stacking forms of anti-tunnel to lay on top. Survs now only have 1 consistent anti-tunnel effect at a time. Killers also got ~3 basekit STBFL stacks (when combined with the Surv speed reduction), and T1 Brutal Strength. The stick of anti-tunnel BT into DS into DH is no more. Now the stick is only BT or OTR or DH due to the foolish notion that anti-tunnel endurance causes deep wounds. It wasn't the carrot of BBQ that primarily varied hooks, it was the stick of Survivor anti-tunnel effects.

Edit: Weird forum false swear fixed (similar to endgame chat)

If we take away all the 10% changes and give back the pre nerf gen regression perks then killer would be stronger than it is right now vs SWFs and slightly weaker vs solo players. You can keep the ruin nerf because that was a noob stomper.

That would be better for the game.