The basekit and Unbreakable recovery changes are unhealthy for both sides

I'm not sure who is benefitting from the Last Stand mechanic.

Who asked for forced, unavoidable Mori's? Certainly not killers.

We won't be able to make 12 hooks, which means our maximum Sacrifice score will be even lower than the 8,400 it is now, while every other category for Killers and Survivors is capped at an accessible 10,000.

Going for 12 hooks is more like a challenge then base mechanic

It sucks... but it's the truth

Those are all the things I read in this forum.t

Most hreads buff killer X compares to nurse or blight and say there killer is garbage in comparison (to paraphrase).

Tunnel/camp especially are very cheap and easy to do. They provide way more value then they should. And once someone starts with it, there is no going back because "survivors are too strong without camp/tunnel". Slugging is just their little brother.

90s gens and you can count the number of threads that gens still run like crazy.

Maps are always just badham this, mothers dwelling that or game pallets. Its very rare someone mentions that maps can be bad for survivors too (shelter woods, midwitch, ....)

PT got so many threads how OP it is already...

How can you call my arguments strawman? Read this forum pls

My first message was meant for this community and not specifically for you. Even if you protect nurse (not counting her range addons) way too much.

Your message that I am making up strawman was your response to me - and as I noted. It's not strawman. There are a lot of threads here showing, that people indeed think these things. So that part I aimed at you

1. 45s is more than enough to chain 3 hook actions in between 3 normal snowball downs. If the first would be back up before the second goes down then simply hook the first. There is no reason to BM by excessively slugging for that long.
2. They will still be injured after a self-pickup, and could be healed even faster than self-pickups with assistance.
3. Those can only be created by killer macro misplays, and base map flaws will be more visible and ideally fixed sooner.
4. It is nowhere near overpowered, and incentivizes the killer to snowball with hooks instead of slugs. This removes the abuse case scenarios and forces the killer to not be a jerk. You don't need to slug to apply pressure, just hook survivors.
5. It only punishes killers for excessive slugging, as stated before a 3 man slug in the span of 45s is still possible to hook all 3 survivors.
6. I can't defend the infinite Unbreakable, but it is very easy to play around regardless. Killers just need to use the spacebar on their keyboard. Difficult to grasp for some players, but all you have to do is pickup the Survivor and hook them.

1. If you got the good chase with a 30s down then you will have no problem hooking the first person then hooking the second. That is unless you let the 2nd Survivor bait you ~70m away from the first, then that would be your misplay.
2. Yes but people like BP for all categories, Altruism is one of those categories. Players typically only play hyper-optimally against sweaty players.
3. I don't know of any current map flaws where you can't hook anyone if they get downed there, could you list any? I personally don't count burning a corner hook to kill a Survivor as a map flaw, that is a macro failure on the Killer's end.
4. Hook for chain pressure, it can give you even better results. It can actually kill survivors in 2 minutes rather than 4. You don't need to spend every milisecond in chase. Hooks are the intended method of dealing with Survivors.
5. And they can all be hooked, even with a 45s basekit self-pickup.
6. Yes that is how you play the game, when an enemy brings a tool you adapt and play around it. If I play against Ghostface I try to reveal him before he stalks me or break LOS. If a Killer brings Gen Regression you try to complete the gen before they can apply it, or go to a different gen. If a Survivor brings DH you bait it out or swing through it ASAP.

its just pondering toward survivor mains as usual. killer deserves to get rewarded for downing survivors, not punished. its already pretty silly that you can pick other people up infinitive and now they're adding the ability to self-pick infinitely? talk about punishing the killer for downing the survivor.

The chapter could largely simplified to following: When end game collapse begins and final survivor remains, You will automatically mori the last survivor if you down them. None of this infinity unbreakable pick up stuff. if anything unbreakable is not a very popular perk and slugging is not that popular so it should improved instead removed from the game. I hope changes do not pass through but they likely will so it is what it is.

Ha! Same here 😂

Honestly... If they could code in specifics then this wouldn't be a problem

Cause then they could look at what happens and have a fix for it (eventually)

Yeah, with the announced changes my first thought was "they killer my Plague" (she's my slug killer) and my second was "why would I, as a survivor, go and try to heal a downed survivor if they can get up by themselves anyway?"

sounds like a skill issue. unbreakable does exist. bleeding out for 4 minutes is part of the game. it is that long because they do not want killers camping the slug the first time they down them. sounds reminiscent of.... hook camping.

The premise of second chance perks is that they're second chance perk. not an endless chance. The way killers counter second-chance perks is by over-doing a particular strategy to win. the effectively the counter to DS is tunnelling, the more you tunnel, the more opportunity you to have waste the second chance. You get more opportunities to successful tunnel a survivor out of the game by pushing their hook counter to 3(0). Its same for unbreakable. You counter unbreakable by continuously slugging because it gives an opportunity for the survivor to waste it so now you have more of an opportunity to slug.

your job as survivor is to make your second chances count. IG and AG are not related perks to second chance perks.

wrong. it will affect every single killer. It is just that not every single basis their gameplay win condition through slugging, for other killers, they take slugging opportunity when they see it but the survivor has to play poorly for you to gain an opportunity to slug. some killers have explosive power-ups in their ability that give them more opportunity to slug. Some player will take that as opportunity to make slugging as part of their primary win condition. It will affect Oni, Myers, Plague, Nurse and Twins. Twin's is the most prevalent slugger because she get punished for NOT slugging because survivors can often be far away from Charlotte when victor downs someone far away. Victor himself is limited time power-up. He has low cooldown but he is dependant on positioning. Slugging is way to make victor more time efficient because twins themselves are not very time efficient despite having really good 1vs1 through victor. That is why Twins can do well at high-level(good 1vs1) but do poorly at low level because low-level players have trouble making victor time efficient while a skilled player can mitigate the drawbacks of victor through slugging. Slugging is easiest highest skill-cap action for the killer so you can argue for Twins being among hardest killers to optimize in the game.

Apart from old Sole survivor, It is the worst perk in the game. The iron will and lucky break are pretty good effects on no mither but they're not the game-changing effects for why No mither has drawback. It is the unlimited unbreakable. Unlimited unbreakable removes the ability for the killer to slug. with such a powerful effect, it has to have drawback. Being permanent broken on the other hand is too severe of a drawback. Nobody will seriously use the perk with that kind of drawback. I think the idea behind the perk should be that you can pick yourself up more then once, but the survivor loses some bleed out timer. The ability to pick yourself up multiple times will give you multiple second chances but it will come at cost that you are more likely to die to bleed out. This makes david king perk more of risk vs reward. It would add to another dimension to the survivor gameplay to juggle between their bleed out timer and the current hook-states that they get.

This idea behind No mither could help slugging as a whole. It can fix a little bit of the problems of slugging being too super high risk to attain the high reward. Its currently too high risk to use as main stream strategy. it would be good way to have more gradual build-up rewards towards slugging like there is for hooking and this would help smooth out twin's gameplay. Other killer could also opt into the strategy more often and survivor would have another dimension to their gameplay to optimize.

this is why hooking is more popular then slugging. it is much safer option. Its so dominantly more popular to hook that survivors do not even consider bringing anti-slugging perks as part of their regular build. Killer's see it too much of risk and survivors do not face it too much unless the killer see's specific place where he see's slugging as a way to gain more reward then hooking. That's why you will never see Wraith slugging people as their dominate primary win condition.

Like all of them? They're usually explicit like "This perk has 80 second cooldown -Oppression".

I would say that I have too many ideas in my head and I want to write them down, but its hard to write them down in concise manner so sometimes I end up blitzing out ideas without proof reading what I am trying to say. It ends up being confusing.

We need to at least try the ptb first before jumping to conclusions. Honestly a 45 second basekit pickup assuming no perks could effect this you could argue is fine. The unbreakable buff so you can now use it infinitely and pickup in 22 secs is just too much and basically an auto run perk (if your a swf you would probs want to bring 2 or 3). That said again we should at least test this all first.

Playing against certain killers on map of their choosing is impossible except WAY more (like 2-3 leagues better) skilled survivors.

Take range addon starstruck nurse on midwitch. RIP.

But let's go to more meh killers and "survivor sided map". Take Legion on the game with Julie's mix tape, Iridescent button, enduring and spirit fury. You have 0 counterplay. Now go enjoy the match where there are like 2 loops in whole map you can use.

Killers have same amount of OP unfair things that they can do. Same as survivors. The difference is, that there is also nurse and blight's addons.