Basekit unbreakable. One simple question about a situation that will 100% happen....
Groups of survivors with soul guard, boil over and flip-flop that keep going in maps where they know there are areas where it is impossible to hook them unless it happens you have Agi and IG.
Now they can pick themselves up an infinite amount of times in less than 20 seconds and became basically unkillable. Making them bleed out will be even more complicate.
This is a situation that, if present in the game, we all know will be 100% abused. Boil over was abused like hell, i don't see any reason this will not be the same scenario.
Any solution? Any idea? Am I misunderstanding something?
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A simple solution is two-fold.
1. Add hooks to boil deadzones
2. Have the 45 seconds be locked in where it can't be reduced by perks.
The absolutely easier solution though is to drop the entire idea. It's silly. It was considered so strong that it required not only a perk slot but also only allowed once a game. Now everyone gets it for free and unlimited amount of times.
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There is just 1 map with hook-blind spot and even that depends on RNG. If you don't play midwitch, there's nothing to worry about. If you play saloon, even 2 saboed hooks might not do it and you might still hook the survivor.
Also there are a lot of perks that can counter sabo plays. Starstruck will make it much more dangerous, agi guarantees you have a chance to hook always. Mad grit disables large counter play for hooking. Hangmans works too but there is no additional usage so maybe don't bring that one.
And last but not least - sabotaging is inherently dangerious. Considering end-game mori, it might be even riskier then ever before.
I don't see it so clear-cut doom for killers. And if killrate drops a little, then we are actually getting closer to fair 50% kr the way every multiplayer game should aim for
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I think these changes would help:
- Hooks are no longer destroyed from sacrificing survivors, to reduce dead zones with no hooks.
- It takes longer to fully recover after each time a survivor fully recovers. This could have a cooldown too, letting it return back to normal after some time. (Think of how the DC penalty stacks)
- Downing a survivor with Victor should attach Victor to them, stopping or drastically slowing their recovery speed. This both helps with the necessary slugging to hook them and helps keep Victor from snowballing many injured survivors back-to-back.
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I hope you are right, but i sadly think that, the same way BO made a lot of killers run Agi and IG due to desperation, this change will make a lot of killer run Frankklin's and Lightborne.
What will you do in case you down a survivor in the open and you know you are facing a sweaty squad of flashlight users? The best stratefy NOW is to let the guy on the ground and to chase and wound some of his bold friends, but with this change it will be no more possible, they will come with long range torches that will make this process too time consuming and there will be the risk the guy will pick up by himself.
Again, another scenario where the only solution is to always have "the right perks"...
i hope i am wrong.
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the way people are complaining so much, even without testing the new mechanics that are yet to come, I think the changes against slug will not come. Same for for the "last stand".
But what the people who complain don't realize is that this change is not simply against the fact of the possibility of slugging, but because the "last stand" would create a very big attraction in the killers to finish the match in less than 1 minute only leaving everyone on the ground, especially with killers like legion, nurse and blight that can easily locate survivors and have a high speed, imagine that in SoloQeue
>>5 generators, no hooks, 1 minute start, all on the ground = end<<.
But I agree, given self UB will make SFWs strong because they would take advantage of this leaving killer to "dead zone hooks", My ideia is just add more hooks to the maps or increase a little the amount of time takes for the survivor to struggle and get rid of the killer.
Ps: I just don't agree with hooks not being sabotage anymore, and they should also remain destroyed after the survivor is sacrificed.
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Nono man! Testing is good!
Testing is always good! These aren't complain, these are opinions, in order to make the people in the PTB to search for critical situations.
Nerfing the slugging is good, for example if these changes will be proven too strong in the wrong hands i think an easy solution is to give every survivor the ability to pick up by themselves once in the trial, you know... like a real unbreakable.
This will be somewhat balanced, usually you do not need more than once, in case of bully squads that will force that scenario you simply tunnel the guy you know used the free UB!
There are solutions. But before you need to find the problems!
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i agree with you but i know what i'm talking about because devs easily backtrack due to certain pressures (reactive), and this is clearly such a scenario, many opinions and most unfavorable as far as i see.
And as I said, what people don't see is that these changes were not simply "against slug" or simply "survivor sided" update, but to avoid scenarios that the "last stand" mechanics will greatly favor.
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You shouldn't need a perk to counter a poor design. That is why base kit BT was added. Because you had to have BT to get away from certain killers camping. This is basically the same thing, but for killers. The maps should not be so badly designed with hook placement that certain areas just become impossible to get hooks in. Now, if they swoop in and make a sabo play, fine, but the idea there is 'one map' that has a hook blind spot is just outright bull. Most maps have areas where using a single hook renders it impossible to hook in a certain region again. And no, you cannot 'take them to a further hook', because if that was an option, losing that one hook wouldn't make that area a deadzone in the first place.
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Snowballing is all the Twins are good for. They become worse than Hag without it. The Twins are easily countered with a Circle of Healing, because their whole goal is to get a lot of injures then capitalize. This makes them unplayable.
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I think the Last Stand should be a thing, but should require a minimum of 5 separate hooks to activate. That way, you cannot just run in and win with a good chainsaw streak, and camping is decentivized because it only gives you one hook, so it takes longer to activate Last Stand.
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it's a good idea too, but the way the devs wrote in the patch notes, if all 4 are on the ground at any time, the other 3 are automatically sacrificed and the last one will suffer from the mori animation, which will generate "speed runs" scenarios like the ones you mentioned, with people taking advantage of poor game design
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Defend a 3 gen around basement the second you see 1 person with a scary perk. Ultimately you don't even need to do that since they will bleed themselves out eventually if everyone does it. Also Survivors wasting time in the corner of the map are Survivors that aren't on gens. It will kind of be like another Self-Care, but now they dedicated 4 perks to be killer perks.
Also you can only cause a deadzone if multiple people bring Breakdown, or someone is early killed in a corner hook. The early kill would be a macro failing of the Killer since they could hook them anywhere and they chose the worst option. Just like when I hook someone near an exit gate I need to think of late game when if they try to escape through that gate if that is the only closest hook I need to hook somewhere else.
Also old Boil Over wasn't a problem, RPD's 3rd story Library and a lack of hooks in the Library at all was the problem. You can easily drop Survivors off of ledges from the shoulder and the stagger prevents them from running away long enough for you to down them again. It may have bought them ~10s to delay the hook, but the hook would happen regardless.
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The point isn't winning or losing, the point is participating in a game that revolves around that situation and that will take 30-35 minutes to be solved because you do not move from the 3 gens and they keep resurrect.
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If 3 people are hiding in the corner preventing the hook from the death destroying it, you can injure all 3 and then down them in sequence. They can't rez anymore since the game will auto-end. It doesn't add any new abuses that weren't already present from 3 gen games where people tap gens and run upon hearing the Terror Radius.
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Idea, have the recovery speed boost only work for one self pick up with unbreakable. That'd be less annoying to deal with, right?
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Could make it so that survivors sacrifice a hook stage to pick themselves up.
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Agreed. Make USED reinsurance basekit. Poor design (enough time to camp out survivor) should not be a reason to need to take a perk.
Wait. This is not what you meant. Survivors should bring perk to counter bad design. Killer shouldn't need to. Right? Well wrong. If one side has to keep up with perks to prevent a situation that has like 80% chance of happening, then I see no problem if the other side has to keep up with perk to prevent situation that happens on 1 map under bad RNG and only on that spot.
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Don't forget Breakdown when 2-3 people have it.
This change would only make sense if all killers got a "cage of atonement" teleport to hook.
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I could see that happening, they might also do something like making picking yourself up cost a hook state.
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Now that's an idea I have not heard; and while at first it seems like an ok idea you have to remember that Unbreakable has always been a top tier perk even though it is a perk that can only be used once per game.
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If left untouched, Twins will snowball and win the game in 3 minutes just from slugging
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Why? Are they able to do it now? Why they should be able to do after the survs will be buffed and killer will get nerfed?
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No you didn't got the point, it is not that this change is problematic for that reason. This change IS PROBLEMATIC but for other reasons!
And i do not want to play in a boring way to circumvent the issues in my opinion is going to create.
Also i didn't like the fact BHVR sold the ending mori as a buff for killers when insted it is a nerf. Killer got nerfed and at the same time survivor got a huge buff! Just simply say it!
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Removing negative elements of gameplay have been a long time coming, and as someone who didn't rely on such crutches for my "wins" I will be 99% unaffected, and I listed how I can win the the remaining 1%. I don't believe the change is problematic because it fixes the thing that truly is problematic. Sorry to everyone who lacks the skill to win without abusing bad mechanics, but using your brain isn't that difficult and the majority of times it is fun!
They just did a big meta shakeup and hard buffed the basekit of killers. Now they are adjusting and preventing abuse cases that artificially inflate the kill counts. Once the kill counts are normalized without such abuse cases then more basekit buffs can follow. Behavior has stated they want 60% kill rates for their numbers. Killers massively won the balance pendulum of 6.1.0, and will in all probability still have greater than 50% kill rates (I estimate 58% from the current 61%, or even 64% total from snowballing [Alch Ring Blights and Nurses] with Infectious Fright with the Survivor team giving up early wanting to go next.). Once the dust settles they can adjust further. I highly doubt the majority of Killers slug in excess of 45s, so if you do that in your games then I am glad I play so rarely with the likes you.
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Well for me it comes down to what other perks that are going to be used...
Survivors:
Unbreakable (to decrease the time on the ground)/ Flip-Flop (to convert some of the recovery into struggle)/ Power Struggle (to get off the Killers shoulders if that Killer made a misplay) or Tenacity (to move faster on the ground) or Boil Over (For reasons already known)/ Soul Guard (for the same reason as Unbreakable but needs to be Cursed -which is going to happen a bit more cause of what I'm going to say about Devour Hope-)/ Breakout (cause why not -this just might be a SWF thing-)... plus some games with Solo's using Unbreakable and nothing else
Killers:
Agitation (to increase carrying speed)/ Iron Grasp (to decrease wiggle speed)/ Mad Grit (to impede bodyblocks and Sabo attempts)/ Knockout (to slowdown recovery speeds) or Nurse's Calling (to see if the Slugged Survivor is going to get up by themselves or with help or Deerstalker (to see the Slug while within range)
Or both sides aren't really going to try the new things out.... who knows
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Okay a couple of things:
- No one can pick themselves up in under 20 seconds. The basekit self pickup time is 45 seconds (which is why I don't like to call it "basekit Unbreakable", as the current self pickup speed (19.7 seconds) is not included) and even if they do bring the new Unbreakable that time is still 22.5 seconds.
- If they dedicate their entire Perk build to this one playstyle, that will make it much easier to down them in the first place, which is important in combination with the next point:
- The new "Last Man Standing" mechanic triggers with downed Survivors. This means in a scenario where you down all 4 Survivors the game will immediately end with a Killer victory.
It is way too early to say how things are going to play out at this point in time. Maybe the new Unbreakable needs to be tuned down a bit, but I believe the basekit self pickup is fine the way it is.
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Again (i know, i probably will have to repeat it a lot):
1) It is not about already knowing what is wrong, it is about ASKING OURSELVES what can go wrong because to me it seem a situation where a lot of thing will go wrong. Another Boil over situation;
2) The issue in my opinion is not with the regular group of survivors, in that scenario the changes proposed probably will work. The issues are with a group that wants to abuse of this mechanic, maybe also lose a game but after 30-35 minutes of they hiding in corners of the map because you can't hook them, of them making impossible to hook because you are constantly harrassed by torches, pallet saves, breakdown, flip-flop, and with an infinite amount of pick up.
3) if you down 4 survivors you 99% win the game even now, the finishing mori only allows you to skip the boring part! But it is a nerf! Now the mori can help you against saves in the third hook scenario, very tiny help, but the finishing mori is not even that.
Prevents ub with 4 men down? Come on! How many times that kind of UB saves the day? Maximum it leads to the 4th guy taking the hatch but who cares?
Finishing mori is a nerf by itself and I do not understand why it is so difficult to aknowledge and why BHVR tried to sell it as a buff for killers.
Removing slugging will damage a lot killers that need to slug like twins, like oni for example. And will damage every killer when they need to slug, not often but in that situation you really need it.
When you have a survivor downed on a pallett and there is someone you have to chase away, when you downed a surv in open ground and there is someone with a torch you need to chase away, now you can't do anything because if you chase away the guy the downed will pick up himself, if you pick up they are going to save!
This will lead to a situation where lighborn and Franklin's will be the only available countermeasures, like with BO and Agi plus IG. The normal gameplay will be unaffected but the bully squad that only want to keep you in a 30 minutes match where they do not do gens but you can't do anything either will have another tool.
This will remove a negative element for survivor creating another more negativ for killers, this is easy to solve. Give everyone basekit UB. REAL BASEKIT UB! That works once! like UB!
Never put infinite stuff in a game! It will be abused!
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1 guy could hide away from them, a couple of those people could bring the new unbreakable and be up in 22 seconds. Yes the killer will eventually win but it would be a super boring experience. Unbreakable needs to be looked at 22 seconds for an infinite pickup for 1 perk is too much.
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You are heavily exaggerating most of what you say. No one will pick themselves up in under 20 seconds as you claimed in the OP, no, your games will not last 35 minutes of doing nothing but downing people and them picking themselves back up, no, Survivors will not get a guaranteed escape when downed inside a pallet (yes they will stand back up after 45 seconds, but it should NOT take you anywhere even close to that to zone the other guy away and get the pickup) - not even current Unbreakable (which is more than twice as fast as that self pickup is going to be) can do that and no you will not be forced to run Lightborn and Franklyns every single game.
They are able to pick themselves back up a grand total of 5 times per player, after that they bleed out. Granted with Unbreakable that would increase to 10 times, but I doubt you will ever see that happen. Like I said before, Unbreakable might need some work, but it is too early to say that just yet.
And that goes for all of your points: You are making a huge drama over something you don't even know how it'll play out! You have never seen this in action, never tested it out yourself and are going off of nothing but the absolute worst case scenarios that you can come up with (which is an incredibly unrealistic and honestly very biased way to look at it). At least wait until you've actually seen the changes before you scream murder, please.
This is almost exactly like when Power Struggle was first announced and everyone here lost their minds over how incredibly OP and uncounterable that would be, the "better DS" they called it, saying it would be impossible for the Killer to do anything if this was paired up with SWFs and such (sounds familiar?) - yet the reality is that even after buffing the Perk it barely ever sees play because of how incredibly nieche it is.
Also, just because you mentioned them: Twins are receiving a rework soonTM. And considering that those changes you are so worried about are not happening any time soon, it is likely that by the time they drop Twins will have received their changes already.
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1) Ub in that scenario is 22,5 seconds. Not under 20 seconds but close, Moreover let's assume a group wants to abuse they are 100% bringing more than one perk if they need to do it in less time.
2) This sentence "you are exaggerating, noone will use a whole build to do this, this will never happened" already was used during BO golden time. People that want to abuse will bring 4 perks, items and offering if they need them to create the perfect environment.
3) If downed near a pallet and they have Ub, power struggle and flip flop? 7 seconds and they can throw it. 7 seconds. In 7 seconds it is barely the time to clean the weapon, check if anyone is near ready for a save and they are ready. If you are a huntress maybe you want to reaload before hooking with bbq? Well you can't! Now you clean the axe and pick up IMMEDIATELY!
But be sure, if the guy has these 3 perks it is a bully squad and the friend is hidden near there ready to throw the pallet. What are you going to do? If you chase PS will activate, if you not chase he will be saved by his mates. Btw i already explained.
4) If downed in the open and you are surrounded by flashlights 22.5 seconds it is not enought to chase them away and make them go back to the boon, if you pick up you got flashlighted, if you do not pick up he will use Ub in 22.5 seconds
5) Again (i already said several times but i know there is always a new guy that didn't read), it is not thati I KNOW it will not work. I KNOW people will try to abuse and our duty is to figure out abusable mechanism BEFORE. Am I making a drama? I hope! If it will be proven that this is only drama i will be happy.
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Twins yes Oni no. If you use Oni's power and get 4 downs you win, so the most you can get is 3. With 3 power downs that takes 7s off of the max power duration each, for 21 fewer seconds of power. That means with Oni's basekit 45s reduced by 21s is 24s spent downing the 3 people. That means you have that 21s to pick up the first person you downed before they pick themselves up. After that you can hook them in the sequence you downed them. Oni is thereby unaffected for legitimate power usage, and only nerfed for excessive slugging. As far as the Twins go, honestly fudge Twins, they deserve it. Although you can still Victor pounce into Charlotte M1 and never risk people picking themselves up.
Are people genning b4 fren or are they threatening pallets/clickies? They can't do both simultaneously. If someone is threatening the pallet/clicky save you have 45s to ward them off and get the injury, which usually would be free if they were close enough to pallet save. Then you can pick the first one up no problem. If it takes you 45s to get an injury on someone close enough to pallet save, then honestly basekit self-pickups are the least of your worries. Also Clickies don't shine through walls, just face the wall before pickup. (Technically they can shine through windows, even closed ones like Dead Dawg, so be careful with those, but otherwise you are safe.)
Never put infinite stuff in the game? Should we remove healing Survs, injuring Survs, doing gens, kicking gens? There still is the 4 minute bleedout and 3 hook stages to kill them with. The limit should placed on hook stages, not the cheesy permanent incapacitation slugging gives.
Also to the first thing you were responding to the other person old Boil Over was never a problem, RPD Library was the problem. They fixed the Library and threw the baby Boil Over out with the bathwater. It was still very counterable even then. Just drop spam near the ledge and the stagger when falling off your shoulder would be so much that they couldn't run back up to their high ground on any map. That was an instance where you could hard prevent a perk from getting the intended value by slowing yourself down a tad bit.
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I doubt it will be the problem the doomsayers make it out to be, but I think we need to stress test it in the PTB before just outright claiming it will be impossible to deal with. Also if that 1 guy is hiding he isn't doing gens, and if he is doing gens then you can hook him near the gen, which isn't in the corner with no hook. The base problem is still a macro failure on the Killer's end, and they should strive to never death hook in corners or near exit gates. If the Survivor gave up on hook then that is an early kill given to the Killer for free, and the Survivors likely aren't going to win regardless. Failure to account for the potential future of the match is a failure in a player's skill.
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I do not want to play a match with 2 or more unbreakables with survs who stand in unbookable corners, it would drag for ages even if I eventually won. Even for optimal use they literally buffed one of the best surv perks in the entire game.
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And I don't want to play any match against Killers who facecamp and hard tunnel the unhooked Survivor off of hook even when the other Survivors are willing to take chase. Sadly we can't always get what we want, and UB is an anti-BM perk. You will be unaffected by it if you simply pick up and go to hook. You still have the UB 22.5 seconds to scare people off. Its strength is entirely based around the playstyle of the Killer, and when the Killer hooks people the Survivors simply get 0 value from it. Many other perks have their strength based off of the user of the perk, as opposed to the opposition. The main perks that gain value from your opponents playstyle for Survivor are the anti-BM/anti-bully perks. They only provide the value the Killer decides to gift them.
Post edited by mizark3 on1 -
At least facecamping the game will end in 5 mins, if survs want to they could drag it out for 15 mins + no thanks.
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Just as power-spam Legions and slowdown stacking Killers can currently. Also many facecamp matches have Survs actually want to play the game, so they go for the rescue at 55s if it isn't an instadown/exposed Killer, or even longer with Reassurance. Making that take ~8 mins minimum, to reach the 8 hooks before deaths start happening.
Overall though we should seek to minimize the bad experiences in all facets. I think early facecamping is a far more common experience than a theoretical Survivor corner camp bleedout suicide pact would ever be.
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If the survs keep dragging out the match against a face camper thats on them just focus on gens and pop reassurance once if you can. Also a power spam legion should not work if you just spread out if you do this legion can legit injure 1 guy at a time and be forced to chase said one guy normally.
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I would be fine with the new Unbreakable changes, if they keep the speed bonus yet you still cannot pick yourself up until 45 seconds have passed or a fellow Survivors comes pick you up.
Or add a penalties toward Unbreakable, like you get hit with a Exhaustion status effect apply to you, so they cannot used a dead hard or sprint burst immediately.
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I had a match today where there were four survivors left, three were on death hook and the Mikaela hadn't been hooked once. I found her, and after a bit of chase I downed her but apparently there was no hook close enough and she got off my shoulder. You know what she did then? Can anyone guess? She ran back to the same goddamn spot to get downed there.
If this stupid Unbreakable change goes live, then that is a freaking lose-lose situation for the killer. Seriously. Today, I was able to just down her a second time and then go off and find and kill the other three before they could get to her. Great job, Mikaela; if she'd just gone on a hook, it would've actually been better for her team. Instead, she bled out for four straight minutes.
If the basekit-unlimited-pick-up change goes through, though, then Mikaela would've been able to pick herself back up, and that would've been a load of crap. No hooks were broken or used, it was just a really bad spot plus really bad hook RNG, and there was nothing I could do about it except slug.
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Did you try to drop her from a height? Did she have boil over or any other perk to help her wiggle? Or you were really close to hook (so no aura) or it was in the open (nothing to obstruct hook, so it wasn't red). Perhaps you played nemesis and forgot to use zombies.
Like what you are trying to write happaned to me only on midwitch (or breakdown/sacrifice/boil over fiasco was in play). So I really wonder about details (as I play sabo builds and I am very interested exactly in these situations)
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No Boil Over, I specifically checked for that when I picked her up. I was doing a Clown daily and ended up on the Ironworks of Misery map. Mikaela went up the stairs into the room in the main building. I broke the door and picked her up and discovered that the hook inside the building didn't spawn and after maneuvering through the door and dropping down there was no hook near enough to get to. (After I downed her a second time, Mikaela actually got birds up there. She didn't make any attempt to crawl to another survivor to get picked up.)
Doesn't help that on controller even without Boil Over it's almost impossible not to get stuck on doorways for a few seconds when carrying a wiggling survivor, so the distance I can make from inside that room is shorter than it'd otherwise be.
I've seen it happen to other killers on Ironworks of Misery. As survivor, I've watched killers down a survivor and try to carry them over and over again. Sometimes hook spawns are bad on The Game map, too. Worst is Midwich, of course.
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I think the changes to the basekit Unbreakable will introduce additional hooks for situations like this.
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Ah. Then it's clear. Main spawned basement. You didn't notice this, because the elevation difference was just too large for you to notice. It is 100% possible to carry survivor from top room to basement (as you can drop thru hole in a ledges).
Also you could let her wiggle to 70% and then drop her of from a height. She would wiggle out, but get staggered - making the chase take like 5s to get her again in better possition. But I am pretty sure you didn't need this trick.
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And here's your equal attention cake, survivor main!
Let me teach you some basic math and empathy you seem to lack. If you have a problem and I have a problem, there are TWO problems, not zero. So complaining about your unrelated issue is very crass.
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I am talking about your double standards. Some problem that happens basically never is HUGE problem on your side, but the same kind of a problem that happens more often than not is fully OK and intended behavior. And at this point I am quite sure that survivor's side is not getting fix. The complains about this issue are game-lifelong complaint as far as I heard (I don't play this game from the very start). But the killer's version of same thing that has like 1% probability and can be completely countered by single perk (and you can even choose which counter to pick) to manifest itself is HUGE issue that needs immediate fix.
Well. I don't buy it. Why such an imbalance?
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It isn't a double standard. It is called 'staying on topic'. It is only a double standard if you think every discussion has to revolve around you. Also, you can literally watch youtube videos of people in PTB making themselves impossible to hook. If this goes live, it is not a 1% chance anymore.
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Provide the clip pls
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He jokes that it is 'not that OP', but if you watch they can easily have someone on gens and just choose not to, Tofu himself admits it is because being on gens wouldn't make for good footage.
You can also watch TruTalent's display of how with Unbreakable and Soul Guard, you cannot down people quick enough to get all four down without STBFL or insta-downs.
Also, the idea that it is a '5% chance' is falacious. Any game with multiple floors can be exploited ALREADY. I have had people use hook offerings and the game map, and it ended up that there was not a hook on an entire quarter of the bottom floor. The closest hook couldn't have even been reached with agitation and iron grasp. Below, I circled the closest hook on the map. Please not, the stair case is NOT in the next room. There is also basement off screen to the right, but that is far beyond reachable. None of these hooks have been saboed. Because the game registers the hook up top as being 'close' it doesn't feel the need to spawn one on the bottom. It did this so many times in a row that the only bottom hooks are off in the far sides of the map. All they had to do was run to the pig slurry machine, jump down, and they were safe. So I just slugged them. But if they could just get back up, then I basically have no way to win the game.
(The hooks above and to the upper right are closer distance wise, but the stairs do not go up near them, so they are further travel time wise.)
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Ok I see the problem. Thanks for the clip.
I will not acknowledge what tofu said about it being balanced, because it most of the time ended up with 2k. This is not the way the game should be played.
There is one other factor I saw in each and every game provided (your's included). It's always about corner abuse. Most of the maps don't use corners, because they are dead zones (see ormond from tofu's video) - meaning survivor will go to corner only to abuse hooks/sabotages. So all we need to fix the issue is just fixing the corner (see that they "never" played in the center of the map, because this would not be possible).
Maybe forced-spawn hook in each corner (and each floor if it has multiple floors) would solve it. After corner hooks are spawned, let RNG generate all the other hooks with standard hook rules.
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Yes. Hence me saying they need to fix hook placement. That was literally the point I made that has been argued. There are several areas in the map with only one reachable hook, and some that have no reachable hooks. One sabo play, which has no counter if done right, ends all your work. Getting a kill is punishing. The usual counter is leaving them on the floor slugged so someone else has to come get them, but that isn't an option anymore. There is literally a zero counter play way to shut down all possible killer progress. And if you have one person on gens during this, you inevitably win.
What they need is to stop hooks from despawning if someone is killed there, and to make hook placement not adjust for vertical distance unless there is a stairwell nearby. A base buff to how many hooks are on the map would help to. Nothing major, but two extra per map could make things a lot more reasonable.
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