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BHVR, why is there a loophole around the DC penalty?
Comments
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It's a matchmaking issue that will never be fixed.
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That kind of sounds like are intentionally throwing the game because it didn't go the way you wanted.
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If you mean insane players getting shoved into average lobbies, yeah. But the odds of facing that in the first place is low. For the insane player, facing an average player is quite likely. But there’s a huge amount of potential average players the matchmaking could shove them together with. So any individual average player facing players of that level isn’t that common.
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No, I mean the absolute travesty that is most Solo Q games.
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The game is over dude.
This literally happened last night. Killer hard tunneled my friend out at 5 gens, hooked another guy twice.
One dude was in a locker and I saved the guy on death hook and the only way the Killer stopped tunneling him was when I LITERALLY went down for him.
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So then solo queue information should be improved and so on. Still doesn't warrant hook suiciding being kept in the game.
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Y'all aren't gonna be able to force players into staying in a match if they don't want to lmao. We'll still figure out a way to leave, and it's not gonna be a "fair match" anyway. Even if I CAN'T give up on hook. Y'all are acting like forcing people to stay in the game is gonna make them actually participate. What's gonna stop them from throwing themselves at the killer?
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If you actually read the original post, I’ve already addressed this. Yes, people can quit regardless, or sandbag, or AFK, or whatever. The only difference is not giving an easy and super quick way to do it with zero risk or penalty. AFKing is easy to report and can lead to a ban eventually. Sandbagging is harder to determine but if people are too obvious about it, they can get punished too, which can eventually lead to a ban.
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I genuinely don't understand why it is hard for people to not rage quit. Why queue up for a team based game if you are going to just intentionally throw the game and ruin it for your team.
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I literally can’t think of any large PVP multiplayer game where there’s a super quick and easy loophole for quitting without getting a penalty.
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Someone is desperate for some points as KIller.
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How is that your conclusion from this? It’s called wanting a normal game regardless of side.
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Didn't you make this thread already
Like three times
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But, yeah I see you said it in your first post, but you literally can't force someone to stay in the game, first rule of video games: it has to be fun for the consumer, if they aren't having fun, you can't keep them
And as much as it might shock you, but with 7 something billion people in the world, someone enjoys disconnecting and ruining others games
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So if they remove killing themselves on hook they can still DC, they will just have to deal with the penalty that comes with that.
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Not really. If someone does not want to play, they just wont play. For the other Survivors it does not matter if that one guy DCs, Suicides on first Hook or goes afk into a Locker.
For the Killer on the other hand, they just benefit from it.
The only thing what should be done against Hook Suicides is to try to remove the unfun aspects which lead to players suiciding on Hooks. You will always have people who dont want to play, sometimes more justified (Nurse, game is already lost early), sometimes not justified (going down first against an addonless Trapper).
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It doesn’t have to be fun for ragequitters when they make it unfun for more people.
Removing hook suicide removes a penalty-free loophole. AFKing/sandbagging can be reported even if the second is difficult to differentiate sometimes. Also even as killer, I don’t enjoy hook suicides. I want an actual proper game.
Also fun is subjective. Even if you fix genuine issues like map design or solo queue info, everything else which is fine but subjective will still make immature clowns ragequit.
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It's like having a tabletop party with friends and force everyone to play even though one of them is clearly pissed off or bored or feel sick or whatever. Yahoo! you improved experience for other players, they have sooo much fun playing with suffering human being who deffinetely very invested in happening gameplay. Who were punished here, again?
Suicides on hook threw the game, yes, and so do those who had intention to suicide but was denied this way or another. You think, it's better to have someone who constantly jumps over the pallet to get killer's attention and die anyway rather than not see this pathetic mess? Not really. It's not fun nor better expirience.
Let them leave my game, please, I want finish it in a honorable 3v1 battle (not 3v1v1) and die in peace. At least my mmr will be lowered less after their death x)
And about your idea. All other people (who normally don't want to suicide) will be annoyed by the fact they can't control anything being hooked and that they have to be totally out of game play. It will be same as a 1 minute respawn with nothing but timer, it's boring af, it's already extremely boring in case of close camp of Bubba or smth like that, and you want to make it even worse. People ask for new interactions regurally and they cry about new mori system because it removes players' agency, and you want to remove even more of that agency from the basic game mechanic which all survivors face Every. EVERY. Game. Multiple times. Do you really think this change won't affect others and their game sense?
Skill check BP game won't work here because it doesn't affect the gameplay itself. The decision of not suiciding is a decision. All those who don't suicide make this decision "to not suicide", and it's important they can make it. You can't remove this. Or, I mean, you shouldn't remove it, because the last thing you want is to make people alt-tab while playing normally. We already have this problem with slugging fiesta and devs already try to fix it.
If you want to remove suicides, you need to invent other gameplay aspect for survivors to do anything while being on hook. And then you will be mad about people screwing this new aspect on purpose.
The best way to fix suicides (or any other base mechanic without removing it) is to heal as many reasons why people make decision to suicide as possible.
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People will suicide even if you fix every actual issue because of immaturity with subjective dislikes. Removing the loophole doesn’t prevent DCing. They just don’t get an utterly stupid get out of jail free card.
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Good point, tho. Because all other PVP multiplayer game have TEAMS and those teams play as teams from start to end. In case you really want to make suicide on hooks impossible, then you should remove mid-game elimination itself. No deaths mid-game - no suicides.
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>The best way to fix suicides (or any other base mechanic without removing it) is to heal as many reasons why people make decision to suicide as possible.
The problem is people will suicide on hook over the smallest things. It is literally impossible to please some people.
>Let them leave my game, please, I want finish it in a honorable 3v1 battle (not 3v1v1) and die in peace. At least my mmr will be lowered less after their death x)
They can leave the game, but they should have to deal with the penalty that comes with that. No one is saying people should be unable to DC.
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So what's the solution then? Remove agency from all other players? It won't work. Like, I agree there IS the loop. I don't like they have free out of jail card too. But you can't fix this problem with your suggested way and not create NEW even greater problems instead. Honestly, your solution looks more like "I want you suffer with me or be punished!!!!". You don't want the solution, you want them suffer. Like, yeah, okay, but... it's not a solution :D
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Remove the ability to suicide on hook and let them DC normally?
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Because they're immature brats who weren't raised right. Dude.
Many players are capable of not suiciding on hook even when there experience has been lessened by other players or mechanics they don't like.
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>They can leave the game, but they should have to deal with the penalty that comes with that. No one is saying people should be unable to DC.
You know how else they can leave the game? By being hooked three times. It's not agains the rules to jump over the pallet, get killer's attention and loop badly. It's not punishable. It's my every second game and I'm not even try to die. Why shouldn't we remove this way too?
Let's do it. Seriosly. Removing mid-game elimination and balancing the game around that could fix SO many problems. Anf ccamp, and tunnel, and all other ways immature players can leave the game before it ends.
Again, I'm not agruing it's bad they can threw the game and intentionaly leave their teammates without penalty, but removing suicide option can't help here. IMO.
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Remove the ability to suicide on hook and let them DC normally? They aren't forced to play that way but if they keep doing it every game they will be punished for it.
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So instead of implementing a simple solution like making you unable to suicide on hook they should rework the entire game and fundamentally change it instead?
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While hook suicides are indeed a problem, being camped to death, or playing against some really broken killer, is not just simply "match didn't go how they wanted it to go". While a lot of people abuse this hook suicide system, and it does really suck for the other survivors, there are also fair reasons sometimes as to why survivors hook suicide.
Like who wants to just stare at a hook for 120 seconds until they finally die for example? Of course it's encouraged to do so, to buy your team time, but I can't blame people for just wanting to move on to the next game as well.
There are at the very least certain issues that would still have to be addressed before something like this could be implented. Camping and tunneling are at the very top of that list of issues. A broken killer like Nurse arguably another reason.
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So you make hook suicide impossible so people don’t have a loophole for ragequitting. And then fix actual issues (eg lack of solo info). Even if you fix all genuine issues, people will still try to hook suicide if it’s possible at all to dodge the penalty.
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You can't force people to play a match they don't want to, it's a lost cause. If you remove hook suicides people are just going to start sandbagging all the time. You can try it for yourself on solo queue, when you save someone that is trying to kobe they'll just start to spam locker entering, vaulting pallets, missing skill checks on purpose, etc. I'd rather have these players out of the match ASAP so at least it ends quicker and I can hopefully find a better game, instead of artificially prolonging what is a lost cause already.
Not even mentioning hook suicide can be a strategy as well. For example if I'm downed with NOED at the endgame and my 3 teammates are on the gate already I'll suicide because I don't them coming back to try and save me. Same thing if I'm on hook and there's only 1 teammate left, I'll suicide so he can get hatch.
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And I repeat it again, this "simple" solution will harm all other players more than suiciders. Did you just ignore my point about player's agency or what? I'm really interested in your opinion about that. Do you really think this thing won't affect normal players at all? Or do you really want to harm suiciders so bad you are going to harm all others?
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And you ignored my point about agency too. Same question if you allow me: do you really think this thing won't affect normal players at all? Or do you really want to harm suiciders so bad you are going to harm all others?
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How does taking away the ability to suicide on hook take away player agency? They can literally just DC if they want to leave. If they want to sandbag or AFK they can be reported and punished.
Sandbagging is against the rules, so they would be punished for it.
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Double post
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Put a check on input during hook stages. If a certain threshold is reached, self unhook potential stops and you have to sit there and wait for stage 2 or be saved. If in stage 2 and no inputs are registered after 2 skill checks, they also stop until being unhooked or sacrificed. You could also tinker with that and make it so that if too frequent inputs are registered, the same happens.
Nothing earth shattering, still leaves 99% of non-ragequit scenarios unaffected, doesn't affect every ragequitter but targets the most common methods of doing it (if you keep the numbers hidden, they can even be adjusted as people adapt and try to get around it,) and gives the other players time to make the save and keep them in the game (or even just make gen progress while they're forced to keep hook pressure.) It should also flag them for review to be matched with endgame reports, so if they get reports for sandbagging they'll also get punished without the end users needing to submit videos and reports, the game already did the record keeping for them to corroborate the reports. Due to the slight risk of possible false positives, it should start lenient and go from warnings to bans as necessary.
People are going to do it anyway, but its not terribly difficult to set up contingencies for that. And for the ones that don't sandbag but just play poorly and get dunked again, thats still more contribution from them than not being in the game at all. It still affects various aspects like map pressure, perks on either side, comeback potential, etc. And most importantly, a change like this gives a very clear message to the players that it isn't sanctioned behavior.
The whole situation kinda reminds me of the old "husk" idea of replacing DCs with the equivalent of an afk player, wonder how that would have affected things instead.
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Not really, no. It's not that deep.
For the casual player, if the game isn't fun, then they'd rather go elsewhere.
DBD is sort of unique in the fact that either side can simply decide that the other will not have fun. If I lose to a Huntress who is cracked out of her mind and 12-hooked us at 1 gen left, I feel good. Not happy that we lost, but it's chill.
If we get a Bubba who just facecamps the first person he downs, the casual player is just gonna let go.
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And what happens when you're a killer who is unable to catch any of the survivors who clearly outclass you, or invalidated your build entirely?
You DC and eat the penalty, or you afk and put your time to go next at the mercy of the other players. Ragequitting on hook doesn't really have an alternative for killers, which is why many people proposed letting them open the exit gates before the gens are powered in the past (while disabling all their EGC perks like noed.) They never got that.
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What is bannable is working with the killer, stuff like pointing out where hiding teammates are to the killer. Fast entering lockers, dropping pallets, missing skill checks, etc are all game mechanics, good luck having someone banned for this, especially when you need video evidence for those.
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And now you ignore it again. Looks like you didn't read my point at all and just jump onto "agency" word applying it to suiciders with no understanding.
Again. What about those who don't want to DC? Have you seen all those killers who don't like new mori system because now it feels out of control and they can't decide to give last survivor hatch? Do you think it's healthy to make NORMAL players alt-tab while on hook because they have nothing else to do anyway?
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People who don't want to DC don't have to then, no one is forcing them to DC. You keep going on about player agency but you haven't made any point about player agency because the player still HAS agency, they can simply choose to DC or not, they just have to deal with the punishment that comes along with DCing.
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Then, why shouldn't you be tied up at night, you don't have to move anyway. That's what you are doing with those who don't want to dc. You trapped them on hook with no agency. Now their thoughts don't matter, nothing matter until anyone else will come.
Agency is having a gameplay options to influence the game you are playing - stay on hook, try to unhook yourself, die to let your teammate a chance to get hatch, die to force your teammate out of gates instead of trying to save you, stay on hook to be sure camper will have hook to stay infront of, get their attention by first suicide attempt. Those options could be bad but you have plenty of them to influence the game flow in a natural non-suicidal way. They just don't suicide, but this do affect the game, they participate the game by not suiciding. And you want to make it nothing, devaluate their contribution.
Being on hook will be even more routine thing than now. It will be even more boring than now. The whole gameplay quality will be lower because there will be less gameplay.
And DC isn't a gameplay option, it's n punishable escape button which removes you from the game completely. DC has nothing with agency.
edited: typos, sorry
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Being on hook isn't supposed to be fun, it is literally a punishment for getting caught. If you are on hook your teammates come and unhook you, it's as simple as that. If you really would like something to do while you are on hook you could have skill checks that give additional bloodpoints if hit but don't kill you if you miss.
>Being on hook will be even more routine thing than now. It will be even more boring then now. The whole gameplay quality will be lower because there will be less gameplay.
If you really think that suiciding on hook is good gameplay then I don't know what to say.
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People are acting like I’m saying to magically hypnotize players to forcefully prevent leaving. Removing a loophole to DC without getting the DC penalty doesn't force people to do anything. It just means a loophole that should never have existed will no longer exist. If they want to DC, they can DC without the loophole. If they want to AFK/sandbag, they can risk a ban.
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Maybe they should've
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>Being on hook isn't supposed to be fun, it is literally a punishment for getting caught.
It isn't supposed to be boring af either. Getting caught is a normal gameplay and should occur sooner or later. You can't find any game which punch you in a face for loosing because it won't make you not to loose, it will make you not to play.
> If you really would like something to do while you are on hook you could have skill checks that give additional bloodpoints if hit but don't kill you if you miss.
Don't affect the game, no agency here.
>If you really think that suiciding on hook is good gameplay then I don't know what to say.
Well, once I saved three altruistic lives of those who were going to save me from the basement with insidious (fist used ever in this game, they didn't know) killer with open gates. They returned to gates and left. I think, my ability to suicide was a good gameplay here, yes (and a good example of my agency).
I got your point, thanks for answers! We have different points of view, almost opposite. I really think OP's suggestion is super bad for the game, but I do hope devs will do smth with rage-suiciders and we both will be happy :D
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In games like Siege (5v5 FPS objective), if you die, you are eliminated for the entire round, and a headshot regardless of distance is instant death. This is a game where 800+ RPM guns are the typical.
In games like League, a late game death can put you out of commission for 60+ seconds in which there is literally nothing that can shorten that (outside of one of the recent champions’ abilities).
In games like chess, it will become absolutely unrecoverable past a certain point if you get outread enough times because you will continuously be corralled into decisions you have less and less power over.
Losing agency is a part of games.
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That just reads like immature brats who weren't raised right.
With extra steps and justifications.
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I dunno what your deal is but I'm not gonna argue with a wall.
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It's a lot of text but I'm not sure how to explain my pov in a shorter way, sorry.
You are eliminated in dbd too - by killer. I'm not close with league but I googled that you can't be eliminated forever here, you are waiting to be back in-game (which doesn't affected by your teammates decision to return or not return you in the game, it's the timer and timer only), you can plan your next moves (those games have much more dynamics in them) and - again - you can't be eliminated forever, you are respawning again and again untill all players won't be eliminated at once (if understand correctly). It's more like new mori system, you can't do anything but waiting for "respawn" and pray your last standing teammate won't be downed before that. And that's why they added respawns in the first place! Being slugged with no choice had no agency for players. It was boring, more boring than intended. Now you can wait until timer pass and get up. Or not get up and crawl first. Or anything else. Interaction.
But with hooks you can't unhook yourself after timer will pass, no, you die insted, the game ends for you if your teammates won't save you. You have even less agency than in legends, if legends is zero then in dbd being on hook you are below zero with your system. That's my consern.
In games like Siege... I'm still not familiar. But that's either like death on hook (game ended, go next game; so you don't loose agency, you just loose the game) or like CS system when the whole point of the game is to eliminate gamers and you play several rounds to see who is more skilled. The whole game have rounds to play in. All gamers play one round, it ends, then you play another - together. No one loose agency temporaly here. It's more like SWF then, you are dead and you wait all your friends to end the game to go into next together. This match isn't really affected, you've already made everything you could and were ended this round. So you can't compare this round with hooks, honestly, hooks are personal states, rounds is for all.
And chess... dbd has this too in the normal gameplay. You slowly win or slowly loose. And there're no parts of the game where you suddenly have to skip your turns untill your teammate touch you. You stil can make turns. You even can make a suicidal ones. For the very last moment.
Like, yeah, I got your point with agency, you are correct about you can be in lack of it sometimes, I don't argue that. What I'm trying to say: those "lacks of agency" is kinda build in, desined around and compensated properly. They have proper limits.
Slugging (bad one, with no hooking without reasons) is a lack of agency for survivors and it is being addressed right now. Devs are trying to avoid it because it wasn't really intended to be so boring. And all your examples were intended. It's not like earlier in league you could run across the map as a ghost and do some stuff, but because of people who didn't do anything and screwed all team... now no one can do anything too, like now there's timer, sit and wait because some of you did bad. It was always been that way, it was intended, it was as boring as it was ment to be. And it has a guaranteed end, which returns you back in game (unless all others are dead too).
And your suggestion makes hooks more boring than it was. I would be ok if there was league system - afther one minute you're off the hook automatically so you just wait it out and you're good if all survivors are good too. I would be ok with Siege(?)/CS system - we have three rounds, I'm on hook waiting untill all others will be on hook too and then we start next round unhooked and healthy. Then yes, doing nothing would be kinda ok. But with current system?.. When there's no guarateed unhooking back into the game? When we alredy have a lot complaints about boring and routine stuff? I'm not sure.
If you think, it's ok - then ok, I asked your opinion, I get it :) Thanks.
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The simplest solution to this is to remove kobi's outside of Deliverance or Slippery Meat. Kobi's really shouldn't be a thing to begin with, as it's dumb to be able to completely reset the game by sheer luck. The people who want to suicide most likely aren't going to want to sacrifice a perk slot just to give up. And even if they do, there's a chance they can still escape and be forced to play regardless.
All that the current system does is offer a quick "i give up" or confuse new players. So there's really not a substancial negative to removing it aside from some very small chance to clutch a game for free.
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