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Map Balancing is Still an Issue
I wanted mostly to talk about "The Game" here as it is still just as infuriating since its release.
Now personally I don't care about a map being slightly stronger for survivors or killer but "The Game" takes it way too far with many many pallets for survivors to use with a handful of them being in narrow hallways where you would end up having to break the pallets giving the survivor enough time to run to another one of the 100 pallets this map has to offer.
This isn't even putting into account how god awful all the indoor maps are and were poorly balanced no wonder people want to just run nurse nowadays.
I'm not saying is impossible but especially with some killers and people who are either unexperienced or just casual player such as my self it really blows when you get stuck on a map such as "The Game" or RPD.
I don't see this getting talked about often for it being a relatively big issue especially with map offerings in the game making it easy for swfs to have an unfair advantage.
Comments
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Old news..
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There's not much to say about the map. There's way too many god pallets. If you don't think this map is survivor sided, you're probably survivor biased. Then again, I think all maps are survivor sided, since none of them have the survivors starved for resources exactly. But this one takes the cake. All it is is breaking pallets, probably getting stunned too since if you keep respecting them, the survivors get another go around. You would think that Wesker being able to jump over god pallets would make this map more bearable for him, but no, because he's got the slowdown when doing that which negates the distance he gained. Maybe all the pallets is great for Spirit Fury/Enduring but that combination has been done to death, everyone knows its counters, and it struggles with consistency. The only redeeming feature of this map is that stealth killers, like Scratched Mirror Myers or Ghost Face, do good against disorganized solos. But Pig, despite it being her own map, is terrible on the game. She can't even get around the loops with her dash attack to hit survivors. Thing is, this map has pretty much been used as inspiration for future maps, as we've seen RPD, Eyrie of Crows, and Garden of Joy get multiple god pallets. It's not fun to have maps designed like this because there's no risk to the survivor after the pallet has been thrown, because the killer just has to break it and the survivor gets 20 seconds of free distance holding forward.
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There is a reason why i always quit or go AFKwhen i get this Map ist unplayable as Killer when u are Not Nurse
Way to many Save and God Palets
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The biggest mistakes I have seen BHVR commit is during more recent updates. The artist with Eyrie Of Crows, which has truly god awful collision. (blight, hillbilly, huntress, and leather face suffer from this) Secondly, the map has way too many filler pallets, which often lead into shack or a 4-wall, T and L, or jungle gym. The main building has two walls that you have to break, and the map is genuinely huge. ALL OF THESE SAME ISSUES apply to Garden Of Joy. Nicknamed, Garden Of Pain. I believe the issue is with BHVR's design philosophy. They make perks that help with map pressure, instead of just fixing maps. BHVR has been fixing perks with new perks since forever. Hopefully they change their ways soon, because garden of joy genuinely sucks. N O T E: Both of these maps have incredible visuals, I love the color palette, lighting, and aesthetic of these maps. But gameplay was overlooked.
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Glad to see I'm not the only one who calls it Garden of Pain.
These big maps aren't very fun. But when characters like Nurse and Blight exist, small maps can be extremely oppressive as survivor if the killer has both mobility and chase.
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The game is (usually) truly survivor sided. But you also have a bias. All maps are survivor sided? Well it seems you have never been on midwitch or on shelter woods to name 2 biggest offenders.
Also there are more killers+build that don't have problem with the map. Mori sadako being one case, iri button + stun-power-recharge legion being other, nemesis, wraith with destroy-pallet-build/addons, etc. And the map does not provide anything but pallets (and 2 LT loops).
Also to note. Old RPD was in the end survivor sided (still there were killers that thrived on this map way more) - new RPD is killer sided. There are exactly 0 good loops on the map and if killer has anything that helps him against pallets, then survivors will have a bad game - 3gen at main being one of many reasons.
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No, I don't think so. Midwich, Shelter Woods, and RPD aren't killer sided.
Midwich's "killer-sidedness" comes from the fact that the RNG is limited. The breakable walls and a few other things are randomized, but the map is mostly uniform in its generation. That doesn't mean that there aren't strong pallets there. Y'all call a lot of the pallets weak, but you can barely get someone there with Bloodlust. Just be patient, like the killer has to be, and only drop the pallet once the killer commits to going through it.
Shelter Woods has always been overhated. It's still a big map, it just doesn't have a broken main building or broken loops all next to each other like literally everywhere else has. The rock loops are there when you've used up the jungle gyms, if ever, and you can play them just as I've said above, since they aren't really weak pallets if you play them right. Most killers can't even use their ability at rock loops.
Maybe it's Sadako's power that should be changed then. Make her condemned not go through walls or at least not from a different floor. Again, y'all find that one niche build of hers and call her super strong. She needs a pink add-on for it to work. And Legion, are we really complaining about them? So what if they can use their power to break dropped pallets? They still go through fatigue to get out of it. Stop trying to stun Legion out of their power and just take the hit, because they can't down you with their power, and you get a sprint burst. Other killers can get through pallets quick, if you drop the pallets. You can bait that you're gonna drop it to get another go-around. They get through pallets really quick because you let them. Even if they do break all the pallets, why aren't all the gens done by that point?
New RPD is just as big and survivor-sided as it was before. You lost 1 dumb god window. Everything else is pretty safe pallets, god pallets, strong windows, and awkward gen placement (for the killer). You get the middle gens and the killer can't win, because the map is split.
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By your perspective. The game is clearly killer sided. You go in, break some pallets, create dead zone and there is nothing survivor can do. He needs to go there because there are still gens there, but no more resources. Clear killer win. Gg go next.
I used same weird reasoning.
But ok. Let's get back to topic and let me explain to you why you are wrong.
Midwitch is extremely small. Has built-in long dead zones that always separate loopable section - so once you exhaust one section, you need to take hit or use exhaustion to get to next part. Because killer needs to missplay bad for you to get to next tile otherwise. This does not even count survivor misplay - that's why midwitch is killer sided.
Shelter woods can have as little as 6!!!! Pallets. Best case scenerio you get some long walls gyms which are solid structures, but not safe structures. Worst case you get that hash (#) shaped structure that has 1 unsafe pallet that killer does not even need to break + no window making it about as good loop as Z-wall. The only structure you know will be usable in whole large map is killer shack with basement (which can be completely shut by bamboozel). You can't seriously call this map survivor sided.
Legion - you predrop the pallet and he immediatelly destrys it with pin (and power cancel is too short to get to next pallet). You stun him and charge his spirit fury/enduring. You don't drop it and get a hit because there are 4 loopable windows on whole map (and they are 2x LT so nothing crazy killer can't outplay). So loose or loose or loose. What is the counterplay again?
Rpd - sure 2 gens in main, 1 in new main-gate's opening, 1 in top right room - 4 gen that is soooo hard to patrol - 3 of them on guaranteed spot (even if 1 is little bit away) 4th one can move like 5m away (but still on same upper floor). Sometimes there are extra gens close by - like in library or old right-side room next to main or room directly above that one. Yet again - killer does not need to patrol all the gens and deplete whole map. And after each droped pallet a little deadzone is built. If you build a little deadzone around this 4+gen, there is nothing survivors can use. I see it all the time. When I play survivor on the map it's probably lost game. When I play killer on it, I probably win. The result is clearly not survivor sided map. Especially with some regression perk or two.
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You're describing each map with the worst scenarios possible. "Just break pallets", huh? "Just create a dead", easy as that? As I said, the survivors don't have to throw the pallets down like they're candy, and if they do, and the killer bothers to break them all, the survivors should have all the gens done. If not, it's their misplay, because that's a huge amount of time wasted even with the killer instantly breaking them. What do you do when there's a deadzone? You just run early, since there's no pallets there, or you hide. Stop expecting a bone when you threw half the map's pallets down and still can't do 5 gens.
If Shelter Woods has 6 pallets, let's change that, but it isn't the typical variation that comes up, not by far. Midwich has no shortage of good pallets. Do the halls have pallets? No, but then you run forward instead. It's even got 2 floors, like RPD, which is a pain for the killer to patrol. How can you possibly stop the survivors when they're working on gens on 2 levels. Even Dead Dawg has that. RPD as I said hasn't changed that much. There's more holes in the walls so survivors don't get lost as easily, and there's more entry ways to certain areas. Nothing about that is killer sided. If the map being a bit smaller than it was makes it killer sided, I don't know what to tell you.
Legion beating you out no matter what you do is absolutely false. When he's chasing you normally and you have to drop the pallet so he slides and breaks it, he still has to go into fatigue, just to be able to hit you. and you get distance so use that. He's an M1 killer with a pink add-on that gives fast pallet breaks, if survivors throw them down like candy. Not too difficult to beat.
Y'all just disadvantage yourselves, don't manage your resources correctly, self-fulfilling prophecy and give up. Survivors have so much power, especially on these maps. You're scared of a few regression perks? Half of them don't even do anything without injuring, downing, or hooking survivors, and the "strong" ones are few and far between. Maybe Call Of Brine/Overcharge/Eruption is challenging, but two of those perks are countered by gen tapping, leaving only Eruption as problematic. But everything else the killer uses, y'all pretty much have that match in the bag, if you're playing efficient.
I just wish everyone would stop pretending that the game isn't hard for killer.
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If survivors throw the pallets as candy, the game ends at 2-4 gens on every map (except maybe the game map). It will probably end at 5 gens when getting shelter woods (as a lot of the small number of pallets present there are totally useless once dropped). You can't go camping or pre-dropping pallets EVER. That thing was complained about by killers and got fixed at 6.1 patch (longer gen times and shorter pallet breaking and all the other basekit changes).
For deadzones - if killer camps 3gen (say RPD) - running early means not doing 3gen and letting it regress = insta loose. Once again - the map no longer has ANY loopable place. Not a single LT. Like the "strongest" loopable obstacle is interogation room (ride side bottom floor far end next to main) which killer needs to misplay for it to not be hit straight away. And it's just 1 window so most you can buy in that spot is 20 seconds - and that is the most optimistic outcome where killers falls for everything. Everything else is just pallet = potential dead zone = hit next time this comes up.
Midwitch - as I already said. You do get a strong pallet. But once it's broken, you can't run to next room. Because next room contains just tables and chairs with 0 pallets. That is hit for killer. And if you go for this spot after someone else already used the pallet - then you get hit while all you did is just holding W - which is now (deserved) survivor L. So no. This map does not offer you enough resources. It gives you enough resources for first 2-3 chases. But as pallets don't replenish, map is tiny and you can't even chain resources on this map - it's no longer of survivor looping right, but how much killer misplays. So after a few first chases you just use your one window you can possibly get to and get your down with 0 things to do. This is way before you can finish your generators.
Legion - once again. The map is not so dense with resources that you can get to next pallet after killer insta-deletes the one you just threw down. Any legion with 1 functional brain cell will run in front of you before canceling his ability (so you need to run over him to get to next pallet or return to broken pallet - it definitelly does not give you any time to run around new pallet - also no mindgames from such a legion. He wants to get stunned for spirit-endurance. And no you can't get to any window as there is none on this specific map). Maybe you haven't tried it. Legion with this specific build on this specific map does not have real counterplay. If you of course don't count baby killer that swings on the air that can get 360'ed 3x in a row and allows you to get to those 2 LT's (which are also not an automatic survivor win) on the map every time to loose him substantial time.
What I see are killers that camped and tunneled too much that can't really loop. But are put against survivors that needed to learn it. For this reason a lot of killers just cry how maps are inbalanced and how every resource is so much OP against killers and killer can't do anything against any loop because mindgame never works. Well. Maybe if you didn't camp and tunnel, but instead learned to chase the maps would automagically become even (and by even I mean you still have shelter woods against the game and rotten fields against garden of joy and midwitch against eerie of crows etc).
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Midwich, shelter woods and RPD are all killer-sided. RPD pallets and Midwich pallets are all mostly unsafe. The killer can mindgame at least 75-80% of the pallets. Shelter wood is mainly killer sided because there is just not enough pallet resources on that map. its one of the maps where killer can just brute force every pallet and the survivor is almost guaranteed to run out of pallets. Its like only map in dbd where there is not enough pallets. The other map that has this same problem is Wretched shop. I kinda hope that they added a lot more filler pallets to shelter wood and Wretched shop. both of those maps are really not enjoyable for survivor because it just sucks low amount of pallets to loop as survivor.
On surivvor sided maps, the killer is hard to play. These maps on the other hand are like christmas in comparison to playing farm maps, garden of joy, badham, eyrie crows, red forest maps and so on. Unfortunately for killer, survivor tends burn these map offering a lot, so you better just get used to playing on these maps and forget about any of those maps.
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Fyi not all farm maps are created equal.
Rotten fields vs rancid (for me personally, thomsons instead of rancid) is almost the same as shelter to suffocation.
Otherwise I agree (even if I never found the true strength of garden - but that's probably just me)
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So I can just run those killers and play those maps and have no difficulty? Okay.
I've tried every trick in the book. Mindlessly Bloodlusting "weak" pallets, because that's supposed to work. Mindgames. Cutting loops efficiently. Bringing Enduring/Brutal Strength/Bamboozle to shut down these dumb loops as soon as possible. There's still teams I had no chance of beating. You can't go in with no strategy, and the survivors SHOULD actively try to figure out and counter your strategy, no matter how ineffective it is anyway. You take into account no whiffs, no strong loops together, no getting cheated out of Bloodlust, Bloodlust not being a necessity, survivors being inefficient, killers having the luxury of breaking all the pallets.
I get that solo sucks, if that's where all of this is coming from. I'm tired of my survivor caliber being questioned, and it's about time I started questioning y'all's. I get double digit prestiges all the time, and I somehow beat them sometimes. What are y'all getting? 100 hour players?
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I don't see it.
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Which is what makes it all the more sad nothing has been done in so long.
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I can say the same from the point of survivor. And from point of killer TBH. That's just skill issue. You will always find someone who is better then you - (in practice) no matter how good you are (ofc there will be always #1 in some niche, but there are quite a few players in this game so chances are it's not you).
The thing that I was talking about is, when you have skill-wise balanced matches and how big factor the actual map is. If you have 100ms reaction time (which is already nice) and play against someone with 30ms reaction time and better knowledge of looping/mindgaming, you will loose no matter which side you play (in fair conditions - meaning something like LT loop. I am not talking about 1m fence pallet 2m fence and I am not talking about god pallets).
And this is just mechanical stuff - there is also macro in this game. And different killers with different skills. And different perks that can change stuff. And so on.
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