Tunnelling ruin the Game!

Very true. I mostly play survivor and sometimes when i get a TTV killer i check out their stream and they actually have viewers who seem to encourage this and want it to happen. Killers believe they have to tunnel to slow the game down, and its just not true. I've never had to do that. Many times a killer will ignore me repairing a gen because they're tunnel visioned on a survivor, and they let me do the gen. Its such a strange thing to do. They basically throw their own game and hope to get a few kills at the end by hook traders and so on. It's just bad play.

They do tunnel......frequently

You want to restrict swfs to customs because you associate them with high mmr. High mmr solos and duos ALSO gen rush, are altruistic, productive, etc. They are good, without comms.

It's not about being solo, it's about being low mmr.(where swfs also exist) And yea, I don't care about low mmr. Players that are new and haven't practiced/learned(which can be done in customs), players who don't take the game seriously and don't care about winning, players that think the opposing/enemy side owes them a good time or a break.

Players that are high mmr meet more players that are worth being a SWF with, so ofc there will be more swfs in high mmr trials. A high mmr swf is only strong because the individual players were already strong. They are smart, competitive, productive, not stupid about altruism. 

Removing swfs isn't going to make it possible to balance high mmr with low mmr. It might not even stop pregame planning or comms, since all they have to do is turn off crossplay so that they can get everyone into a discord or a party.

I don't suggest that BHVR make major changes that will destroy high mmr trials just because I don't like tbagging.

What I meant by players thinking that the opposing side owes them a good time or a break is things like:

-Hey I gave you my med kit so now you're toxic if you don't become a friendly killer

-Someone DCd so now you should let the remaining 3 survivors have a free win

-I just got unhooked so now I can stand in a doorway to bodyblock you and you're not allowed to hook me again cause that's tUnNeliNg

Players with that mindset are usually in low mmr.

This is what confuses me about this type of argument. It's almost as if you're rubbing his face in your argument and being very nasty about it, because this isn't the first time you've brought up "Skill" or learning a proper "Counterplay"

What does this even mean? Outside of running Off the Record, what do you even mean counterplay? This is what I never understand about people who advocate for tunneling and camping. It's a conundrum, you people say to get better at the game against a playstyle you can literally do NOTHING about 99% of the time besides running one particular perk. Where is the performance here? What is there to exactly grow off of here? There is no skill involved. If a Deathslinger for example decides to tunnel me off of hook and by chance he hits me with his spear and waits out the rest of the borrowed time, that isn't my fault. That isn't anyones fault and to say "Well you could've just outplayed it" is pure ignorance. It's the same with Nurses who can eat your borrowed time and insta blink 2 seconds after that ontop of you, the same with pyramid heads who can follow you close by with M2 and just wait for the proper time to actually use it whether it's a pallet or a vault, it's the same as a blight who pulls the exact same move off as a nurse. I keep seeing all these people say it's a skill issue all snidely but MAJORITY of the time, it's people being put into situations they can't do anything about because they are A. Already Injured, and B. The killer is hot on their trail following them and just waiting out the few seconds that they have to possibly reach a pallet, that almost half of the killers in this game have powers to counteract.

I see it fairly often in my games, but I don't flame the killer for it. The way gen speeds are and with survivors slowly but surely improving, any killer that isn't Blight or Nurse can't afford to spread hooks like they used to, unless the survivors royally messed up. I also don't think it ruins the game anymore than survivors completing two gens in the first 2 minutes of a match does. In a PVP game doing your objective quick is what people do to win. Killers that camp and tunnel are no different from survivors who bring BNP, map offerings and syringes. It doesn't make people less skilled by doing any of those things, they just want to win. The sooner that both sides stop taking matches so personally and learn to move on the better.

You could also argue stbfl is enabled by the current state of endurance being so consistently available too.

Lets start off by saying its unappreciated that you automatically assume I am being nasty.

This game involves a lot of skills, and decision making. Countering Tunneling can be done by use of perks and items, teamwork if your team is playing well together, or by actual skill in the chase.

You've already seem to understand some of the perks you can carry or your teammates can carry to help with it so Ill skip that.

Teams can body block for each other, take protection hits, sabotage hooks, flashlight or flash bang the Killer, or as previously stated; use their perks to help you.

When someone talks skill against tunneling, they are usually referring to the chase and getting good at looping, spinning, using pallets at the right time, jumping in and out of lockers, flashlights, and vaulting ( I may be missing others). Winging the chase when you don't know the maps well doesn't usually work out for too long unless the killer is equally unfamiliar.

Once you know the map well, you can have a plan in your head for the path you wish to take in the areas you know you'll find pallets and obstacles to loop around or vault through. This is where decision making comes in. You have to decide when to drop a pallet when you're looping as to not waste it early. Then know not to return to that spot expecting the pallet to be there.

The longer you can prolong the chase, the longer your teammates can sit on generators. When you're really good, you may be able to run someone around long enough to get them to quit chasing you entirely, or all the gens will be done.

So Tunneling only works when the Killer can 1) keep track of the previously hooked person 2) can hit that person without hitting someone else who is blocking 3) can only hook the tunneled person if the hook is operational, close enough, and not being blocked by a crouching teammate 4) can catch the person the killer is chasing 5) the game hasn't ended because the survivors were too skilled at out maneuvering the killer.

I can tell you I'm not that great at the chase yet, but I am getting better and better every time I play. Being tunneled by Killers is part of what is making me better.....out of necessity. This is all part of the game.

As far as your specifics, Death slingers can be dodged. I'm not saying you're going to be able to dodge it every time, but I do 75% of the time.

Nothing is guaranteed. But learning the skills necessary for the game will make tunneling less of a threat and more of an asset for your team to give them the time on generators without fear of getting caught out.

Another part is when you are too willing to run up to a hook to rescue a teammate with the killer standing right there. What do you expect is going to happen?

They aren't going to die right away....so if the killer is camping, do a gen until the last second and rescue then if you feel its worth it. Otherwise, thank your teammate for their sacrifice and escape with 3. I'd much rather escape with 3 than 1 through a hatch or none because you felt you had to save the first guy on his last hook.

When I play killer, Ill camp and tunnel when i need pressure and the survivors are out playing me in chases or around the generators. Most of the time, they will all come to save their friend(the bait) which pulls them off gens and gives me some free shots on survivors to soften them up. from there, I can start regressing gens, forcing them to use pallets I can break and soften the map to be more killer friendly for chases later.

The point is, you cant start playing a game and expect to be amazing at it right off the bat. There's a lot to learn and the things you may think are unfair now, wont seem so bad after you've taken the time and put in the effort to learn the game. I'm still learning.

I'm also tired of all the whining and complaining about things being unfair when their New Threads should be asking questions on how they could get better.

I said it's nasty because frankly it is. People refuse to see both sides of the situations surrounding playstyles on this game and always chalk it down to skill issues when it isn't even that to begin with. To push off an actual issue in this game and regard it as a non-issue that goes away the second you "git gud" isn't even something that should be normalized. Every single game has quirks, every single game has it's balancing issues, and to push the issues under the bus isn't benefiting anyone whatsoever. Everything you stated here is something that I already do on this game, I throw pallets down strategically with consideration on if I want to come back to it later. I also try to take bodyblocks for survivors coming off hooks. However, I cannot control OTHER people bodyblocking for me when it comes to solo Q. I cannot control which pallets other people throw down in solo queue, or duo queue. You say teammates can take hits, bodyblock, use flashlights/flashbangs, but I want actual factual information for how many people in solo q actually play this way to begin with, because I can GUARANTEE you it isn't a lot.

I have over 4000 hours in this game, so I'm by far not new. And still, no matter how much game sense I have, no matter how much I know the maps, no matter what perks I'm running, if a killer wants me dead, almost every killer can tunnel me off the hook and get away with it due to the powers that they have. You say deathslingers can be dodged, but that isn't good enough. Not every deathslinger is going to mess up a shot around a very tight loop. I also mentioned SEVERAL other killers that can all counterplay against you in the situation of being pulled off hook. So again, you say that camping can be countered so I want to know what exactly can be done to counter camping REALISTICALLY in a Solo Queue/Duo Queue environment. I know not to dive into the hook if someones being facecamped 99% of the time, but can I say the same for the others who ultimately get paired with me that play like bots and hook dive anyway and essentially throw the whole game, therefore dropping my MMR even more and putting me against more and more killers who do this at 5 gens?

You say you are tired of whining and complaining about things being unfair instead of how they can get better, but you also fail to see that not every situation is a situation to grow in, like it sounds like you are saying. There is no potential to grow when you personally have done everything that you can to deal with camping/being tunneled and you get no help whatsoever due to solo queue teammates. You may say it's expected to blame your teammates at that point, but I think a killer can be blamed aswell for the way they choose to play right off the bat when a game starts. You yourself even say "I'll camp and tunnel when I need pressure...etc" yet they have people out here who go into a match with the expectation already set to sit here and tunnel every single person off of the hook.

Sorry if this comes off as passive aggressive or anything. I'm just tired of having played this game for this long, for the last 6 years, and everyone always says it's "Your fault" for being tunneled, for being camped. I don't tunnel survivors willy nilly when I play killer, and I certainly don't blame the survivors lack of skill on a reason why they would be tunneled out to me. Sure I might say because it seems like they were the weak link, but most of the time it's because they are already injured and in a good position for me to down them. I've had actual killers call me trash because they went out of their way to chase me through 2 damn people to make sure I die. It isn't always black and white. You have these 5 criteria to be met on if a killer can tunnel you or not when half of the time (More like 75%) it just WORKS. Everyone always says "Oh just do gens to punish them" As if that logic actually makes sense in solo queue. Do you know how little I see people actually punish killers doing that when they play this way? Again, everything here is from solo/duo queue perspective. This has gotten to be so much of an issue, as a matter of fact, that they made BORROWED TIME BASEKIT. That says something. IF tunneling wasn't an issue, then why do that to begin with? And they also made yet another perk to try to counter camping, just like camaraderie, and neither of these things are enough. Instead of them actually helping out, it feels like the camping and tunneling situation has gotten even worse which isn't the direction the devs wanted it to go.

I gave you arguments for several points you made in your post and you read the first line of my post and deemed it as not worthy of reading. I gave you situations to show you things aren't always black and white which is why it isn't fair to say it's a skill issue. What you presented to me was things that happen in an ideal game with working, proper MMR which this doesn't have, or playing SWF, which not everyone does. I say it's nasty because not everyones FIRST instinct on this topic should be "Oh it's a skill issue for sure", because most of the time you get put in a situation that doesn't even care about your skill to begin with.

I said nothing is guaranteed or %100. A survivor should not expect to walk out of the match every game just like a killer shouldn't expect 4k every game.

If tunneling is a constant problem every game and the person has no relief, then yes, it is most definitely a skill issue. Learning the game will provide for many escapes.

I must just be the luckiest person in the world. Somehow I manage to escape 50% of my games as survivor...even with tunneling and camping happening.

Players want to feel like they are good at the game instead of actually being good at the game. Some of those people want the game to be changed so they can appear to be good due to game design features that force them to look good. Thats the most ridiculous notion a PvP game could imagine.

It is bad design but not for the reason you listed.

That's like saying because the survivors decided to pop 3 gens when the killer only had 1 hook that that means that gens are bad design.

No gens are badly designed because the survivors objective shouldn't go faster than the killer's when they have half the number to do and they're extremely uninteractive. Not because they decided to do their objective efficiently.

Tunneling and camping are bad design because it removes a players agency too much.

Players deciding to use something doesn't make it bad design or not. You can decide to use it or not, but that doesn't change the design.

If you are getting killed consistently in 2 minutes every game, that's a skill issue.

Its not the even comparably the same thing, because you can choose as killer not to over-commit and actually go for another survivor. As a survivor you don't have a say on the matter of Camping or Tunneling. The survivors don't/can't choose YOUR actions. That is the very thing I am trying to tell you... the accessibility to these so called 'tactics' bare little to no skill and are available without there needing to be a situation to enforce it.

I never once said "players deciding to use it is bad design" I said "The accessibility" meaning how easy it is to do it is bad design.

I don't agree at all, so I'll just agree to disagree.

I can't agree with someone who thinks Camping at 5 gens is ok, simply because that killer wants to "win". Completely ignoring what is wrong with that whole scenario.

That's fine, I won't agree with someone who thinks that situation is not fine, but popping 3 gens in the first chase is.

Just to clarify I don't think camping and tunneling are "ok". They need to be changed for the health of the game. It doesn't matter if its a 5 gens or not. However, that is not the players fault. The game design is the problem, the players can only work within it. Killers can't make 12 hook super inefficient games viable alone. The survivors are half the match, they need to cooperate and slow their gens down too. Survivors aren't, so the tunneling continues.

If survivors are expected to try and win, killers should be too. If you want killers to be expected to play inefficiently on purpose, survivors should too. Not it's fine for survivors to try and be as efficient as their skill will allow on gens, but not killers on kills.

As for actual game changes, remove C&T sure, but give the killers a viable alternative in its place. Don't just punish them and leave it at that, they need something in its place.

One problem with your statement is you don't know whether it will be necessary or not in most cases. Just because the gen icon at the corner say 5 doesn't mean there's not 3 gens at 90+ %.

I also never said they would only use it when necessary, just that it is at times. That amount going up the better the survivors are. Survivors don't only do gens when its absolutely necessary either.

That's the efficient way to play the game. Slam gens, slam kills. That's how you play well. They should start playing badly on purpose just because they're ahead? Why? Because its unfun? Ok sure, as long as both sides do it.

They are the same thing, doing the objective efficiently. Killers choose to do theirs, survivors choose theirs. Again, survivors also pump gens when its not necessary.

Either both sides can rush their objective or both can't. Idc which as long as its equal.

But survivors can't be ok with that, so we aren't going to get anywhere till their mindset changes. Your attitude of "it's not the same" is part of the problem.

The killers objective matters too. If survivors won't agree to slow down gens, why do killers need to agree to slow down kills? Survivors have a choice to make too, it's not all on the killer.

If your argument is that its fine to be upset as survivor because "my opponent didn't start throwing the game once they started winning. They shouldn't get to continue to play well after they have an advantage" That's asinine. Especially if your excluding killer from doing the same.

If you still want to disagree then well, I tried. The cycle continues.

I think we should be discussing why survivors go down fast rather than why the killer takes advantage of an opportunity to win the game by killing a survivor ASAP.

Not simple, you can't expect solo queue to have the communication nor coordination available to punish camping killers. If solo queue had comms or aura reading, sure, fair game, but you can't say "do gens" until these problems are addressed.

Unless the game is changed on some drastic fundamental level tunnelling will always exist. You can disencourage tunnelling through specific perks like OtR and through coordinating on gens while the tunnelled survivor buys you time but you can't prevent it outright. If you, really, really want to win you tunnel out the first survivor you find. It means that the rest of the game is a 3v1 and far easier for the killer to manage. It doesn't make it justified - I don't understand why some killers want wins literally dropped into their lap rather than a close match where everyone involved has a good time (aside from maybe pips?) - but it means tunnelling will always exist.

Not to mention that it's a great way to piss off whoever you're tunnelling as they will make far less points and depending on their capability in chase and the map will be out of the game very quickly. Killers that tunnel for this reason are the same killers that play facecamping Bubba. It's not interactive or particularly thrilling if at all but they're not doing it for 'fun'. They're doing it to farm salt and irritate survivors just because they can.

Even after the huge mid-chapter which gave killer several major QoL buffs that had been highly requested by the community, I still saw tunnelling as frequently if not MORE than before. It was enough to make me uninstall the game for a while because of how disheartening it was. That confirmed to me that tunnelling isn't going anywhere. The best way to deal with it is to recognise when you can/can't assist a tunnelled survivor and when to crank gens. Learning map layouts and ensuring you can make the most out of a chase can make tunnelling punishing enough to throw the game completely out of the killer's favor. Sadly there is no way that tunnelling will ever stop being seen or complained about in DBD.

(BTW - I recognise tunnelling can be a valid strategy to regain lost pressure. It's far less frustrating when I can understand WHY a killer would decide to tunnel a survivor out. When a killer does this when they are already in a winning position and have a great deal of pressure that is when I get annoyed. It just comes off as sweaty to the point you want to ensure your opponents have as little fun as possible. Not saying you can't do it, but I don't understand it.)

Gen rushing and SWF also ruin the game.

And you think holding M1 requires skill?

I can put a rubber band on my controller to do that for me.

But since its the small things that apprently are skillful by your standards, then camping does require you to keep an eye out for survivors and and move around to keep a better view, and correctly time a grab, within all the fake unhooks.

Also its kinda funny that you only choose to answer the first line of everything i wrote.