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Discussion about the new Stats (Kill-Rates)
BHVR posted the Killrates a few days ago. The most interesting part is, that killers considered to be weak and D-Tiers like Sadako and Freddy are in the Tops.
But: I would also love to see graphics about the PICK-RATES of them. What else would u like to see?
Overall we have 59,1% average-killrate, which will drop heavily after slugging, especially in the Engame Collapse at the "final hook to defend" is gone with the Unbreakable-Basekit.
So I think the Killrates are fine, I myself have an Escape-Quote of 54% at the moment.
Comments
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Always those mental gymnastics when Stats are released that dont fit the narrative that Killers are so weak and struggle so hard.
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? U think 59% is not balanced in an 1v4-Game?
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I would like to see killrates of killers vs solo and swf.
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I would love to see the hook rates, they give a better picture of the matches. @Marik1987 are you a Freddy main?
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yes. And I dont like the Addons he has... I would love to see an Addon-Pass + Snares/Pallets Basekit like Clown.
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Pinhead is not surprising imo. He's arguably the killer that has the biggest advangtage against Solo, other than a good Nurse or Blight I guess.
Sadako is a little surprising. I can count the amount of times I've died to her on one hand.
Wesker isn't too surprising? I don't think he's too strong (but I recognize I also have an insane bias towards him right now.) I wonder if it's just because he's new.
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Sadako can bypass hooks with condemnation which is a strat some high mmr sadakos have been using.
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Maybe we should play onryo to mori people thats tge only good playstyle
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That's true. I've been lucky enough that I haven't gone against that build yet. That relied pretty heavily on slugging, right? If the new slugging changes go through, I'm curious how much her kill-rates might change.
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The build is pretty addon dependent. You need the condemn spreads via healing and some way to get tvs back faster which the best bet is the iri videotape which imo is an insane addon that should probably get toned down.
I think Sadako's basekit is a bit too weak as if you tried doing condemn slugging without any addons you just have no threat since your ways to spread condemnation are very slow without addons. I personally would like to see Iri Videotape get toned down and some basekit improvements to her tvs, but somehow I feel like that won't happened.
What would be nice to see with these stats would be addon usage rates per killer.
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It kinda blows my mind how they left those addons unchanged. They're awful and theres nothing really interesting besides the dream pallets you can use for fun but its still mediocre. Which is sad because looking at his killrate they probably won't touch him anytime soon.
Hes still fun to play but I would love to see the addons and the snares reworked, if the snares always worked would be fine but lots of times people are not in dream and u don't get the value from it. For me would be fun if they replaced the snares for an hability to pull the survivors with the blood, like a straight line "hook" (like deathslinger, but way shorter range ofc and not that fast, otherwise people can't react), even with was just an addon to change his power. The main theme of being able to change the enviroment/his power while in dream opens a lot of variety that could potentially be explored.
I usually choose the dream projection cd reduction and the repair/heal regression addon.
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So what I'm hearing is knowing BHVR, they'll look at these stats, decide Sadako is OP, nerf her and the add-ons.
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I’m curious to see your mental gymnastics at how Nurse, who supposedly breaks all rules of the game, isn’t even a top 5 killer at high mmr.
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I feel like what's more likely is she gets ignored
Look at Freddy who has a collection of bad addons and a relatively weak anti-loop power. Yet Freddy is still able to maintain a decent kill rate and hasn't seen any changes since his last round of nerfs.
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I don't know. The ability to kill without hooking is pretty powerful, and while it may take a lot of effort on the Sadako's part (maybe, I honestly know very little about the build, I find Sadako very uninteresting personally).
Freddy got alot of complaints, got a ######### load of nerfs, and has been left untouched. Sadako, as far I'm aware, only got her buffs from the PTB and then nothing else.
Again, my knowledge of Sadako is very limited, so I might be wrong.
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Pig can kill without hooks as well.
Pig only got touched when it became possible for do by afking and even know pig can still follow and keep a single survivor from getting their rbt off.
People also complain about Myer's tombstone addons and those haven't been touched (last time they were buffed even) in any significant way.
I don't see Sadako in threat of seeing any nerfs anytime soon.
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Fair enough.
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Her passive phasing flies under the radar. I play her a lot and typically win. I'm not a fan of the Condemned playstyle and don't use it myself. I just play her like an M1 killer with mobility and use demanifest/manifest mindgames at tiles with her brown add ons. I get *a lot* of hits because survivors hesitate for a bit on the passive phase or straight up walk into me. Just have to time up your fakes with her phases. Plus she's extremely short and has a deceptive lunge. She has a lot in her kit that flies under the radar
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the best part about this data is that destroys the old "nurse is fine because she has the lowest kill rate"
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Trapper is only one (that I noticed atleast) that kill rate % was the same both overall and as 5% - he has 56% kill rate. I'd love to see his kill rate broken down across the different levels of MMR, just to see how consistent it is. Like is it just coincidence that it's 56% for the overall and 5% or is it consistent across the board? Would also like to see his pick rate at different mmr levels and total as well as I think it'd be interesting to see DC rate v Trapper to see how many matches are actually counted for the rates v thrown out.
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I should probably mention I can count the amount of times I've even played against Sadako on one, maybe both hands. My issue might be that I have not played against her alot, and maybe only two of those people seemed to be at all competent at playing Killer.
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Nurse is fine because her kill rate isn't even in the top 5 at high MMR and has a low overall kill rate. Is that what you mean?
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the best part about this data is that destroys the old “nurse is over performing and lacks counterplay”
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Fair point. She seems relatively rare. So the sample size for her performance may be small relative to a killer like Blight. It could be a handful of solid players that stuck with her and prop up that kill rate. I honestly play her for the chase music half the time
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The reason why Sadako is at the top and Nurse is at the bottom, is because these kill rates are taken across all MMR brackets.
The lower MMR brackets are heavily killer sided in general, where simple M1 killers like Sadako, Freddy and Pinhead work just fine and whose powers simply augment their already stale gameplay loop, but that bracket also includes all the newbie killers who try out Nurse and fail.
Ultimately these figures are all completely worthless. Even the individual killer kill rates are pointless to look at because the gameplay at the top end is vastly different to the bottom end, so without having at least a three-way breakdown between top-mid-bottom, you can't glean any useful information out of it.
Crushing this data even further down to a single 59.1% kill rate across all killers at all MMR brackets is even worse!
It's like attempting to calculate mortality figures and coming up with "100% of humans will die due to a reason of some kind."
59.1% kill rate could indicate that the game is roughly balanced, or it could be the result of having a 90% kill rate at the lower end and a 19% kill rate at the upper end!
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nobody ever said that she has to be nerfed because she overperforms and his kill rate doesnt prove that she has relieable counterplay
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no, a lot of nurse mains defended she being op because his killrate was low but now we can see that she is above average in kill rates so that argument is obsolete
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My guess is they won't touch her because she's only at a 63% for all MMR and 61% for top MMR. I see them nerfing Wesker, Plague and Dredge before they do anything to Sadako. I say this because Freddy has been around top tier for a long time and they haven't done anything with him.
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The rates show Nurse isn't even in the top 5 and has a low overall Kill rate. The stats show she's fine.
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Good thing to keep in mind: BHVR releases these stats more for funsies and don't expect you to put too much stock in them.
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As is always the case in these instances, stats are always interesting to look at and discuss, but without greater context and more details, they're never going to paint a true accurate picture of the game itself. They provide a talking point, and there are nuggets of "truth" that you might be able to infer from them, but in of itself, they'll be "proof" of nothing.
As an example, for anyone here who follows the NFL, if you used QBR (commonly thought by most stat heads to be the best metric to measure quarterback play), currently Bailey Zappe of New England is the top-rated quarterback in the NFL (ahead of Josh Allen) and Geno Smith in Seattle is 4th (ahead of Patrick Mahomes, among many others). If you went only with those current "stats" that have Zappe and Smith as two guys who are better QB's over Allen and Mahomes, that would be a prime example of how you can't rely on said stats without any context when making decisions, as no one running an NFL franchise (or who has followed the NFL at all) would choose the former over the latter to be their franchise QB if they could make their choice (and wisely so).
There's a very good reason why there's this famous quote: “There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics.”
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She’s within a 3% kill rate with half of the killer roster, which means she has comparable counterplay as half the killer roster.
If she truly didn’t have reliable counterplay, then her kill rate would show her as greatly overperforming.
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In regards to Nurse, remember games with DCs are not included. So a lot of games where Nurse is destroying a team and on a path to 4K are discarded because someone DC’d, and a game where Nurse is underperforming are more likely to be counted because no one quit.
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Knowing Behavior, a win is considered at least one kill. And these stats would make sense if you assume that.
Nurse's stats are going to be skewed by people who don't play her well. Her skill floor is VERY low and her skill ceiling is VERY high. If you aren't great with her, you will do terrible. If you are god tier with her you will destroy SWF groups with ease. People complain because every so often they go against a god tier nurse player and get absolutely slammed to the point where it's obviously not fair.
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Most people who play nurse are bad with her. It's actually my favorite thing to do, a nurse starts charging her power, so I just run in her direction and she teleports waaaaaaaay past me.
I suspect the vast number of bad nurses are deflating the kill percentages for her.
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They definitely reduce the overall kill rate. The top 5% MMR isn't showing a crazy win rate either though. I suspect the people complaining about Nurse just have a mental block about her or can't be bothered to learn the counterplay. If the Nurses in the top 5% of MMR don't have a crazy winrate who are these 'unstoppable' Nurse players? The top 0.1% The top 0.01%? I don't think the rest of the playerbase needs to be nerfed due to the top 0.1% in any role.
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top 5% of Nurse players are bad?
That argument only holds in the overall kill rate, not in the top kill rates.
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If we take the stats as is:
GF is a weaker Myers, Myers is nowhere near the worst killer.
Pyramid head is vastly overrated and apparently actually weak.
Demo isn't balanced, he's weak.
Trapper is bad, as we all expected.
Wesker is still pretty new so his kill rate might be a little inflated.
Apparently Plague is the best killer in the game.
Pig is also, apparently not that bad.
Nurse and blight are not the best killers in the game and is actually on target for what the devs want balance to be (~60%).
Hillbilly isn't bad, he's fine.
Sucks we don't have a split between solo's and SWF, which is probably inflating kill rates like Pinhead and such. Surprised by some placements.
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Yea IDK what my survivor MMR is, it's probably mid level? It's hit or miss. Sometimes I get huntresses that can snipe from across the map or nurses that can pinpoint teleport to you by guessing your location based on some fading scratch marks.
Then there are times where I get nurses that severely over/under blink every single time and you can loop them for 3 gens.
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LMAO of course it's not. Even if it's 1000vs1. You don't seem to understand what "asymmetrical" means. There are more players on one side, but the other side has totally different game mechanics available and is much stronger, which evens out the player count advantage. One side should never have higher win chances than the other, fairness is the basic idea of any game.
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I try it again. You, at least, understand that these numbers are PC + all Consoles, right? Thats why Wesker is top and Huntress is in the bottom for example.
Id love to know the PC only.
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Killrates mean nothing and never have. People kill themselves so often for such a variety of reasons, not too mention map rng plays a heavy role in how hard the match is gonna be for either side plus popularity and ease of use are also factors in killrates, all of those factors tend to sway killrates far more then how strong a killer is or how balanced the game is as a whole
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That's because the range for who you can get matched with is too large. Even though the stats are for top 5%, that does not mean they are being matched with top 5% survivors. They get matched with anyone at and above the soft cap. Potentially below if they are waiting for a minuet or 2.
The soft cap needs to be higher and the matchmaking needs to be tightened.
Right now the system vastly prioritizes speed over fairness.
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Other killers are influenced by your highest mmr killer heavily, so if my blight is 2200 mmr and I go and play nurse for the 5th time it will still count as "high mmr" for example.
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iri tape is not her main source of condemn, its supplementary source of condemn when used with ring drawing. if survivor heal themselves off the floor, the person who healed the survivor on the floor get 1 stack and other person gets 1 stack. assuming a survivor is next to a tv, you teleport and each of survivor gain 1 stack of condemn. both survivor gain 2 stacks of condemn.
Condemn survivors is possible with just ring drawing, but the issue with only ring drawing is that because TV have 100 second cooldown, sometimes the survivor will be next a TV that has been used, so you will miss out on condemn stack because your TV is on cooldown. With iri-tape, you never miss the chance to TP because your TV are always available assuming you get 1 hit. the slugging is there so that people cannot hardcounter the add-on using med-kits & circle of healing.
in order to make tv's a primary source of condemn, you need to use a purple add-on called VCR. VCR plays projection on every TV that is on when sadako teleports. In other words, if you are next to a tv and that tv is on, everyone that is near a tv gains 1 progress bar. I do not want to explain how to utilize this add-on but if you understand some perk synergy, you can create some nasty strategies around VCR. that add-on is like old ebony mori's. a strong team can beat that iri tape+VCR but it is not fun to play against it. If i played against sadako that add-on with correct perk synergy, it would not be very fun to go against in my opinion. for that reason, I do not use that add-on because it is not interactive to play. This is my guess to why her TV's are 100 second cd. It is to balance that add-on. its just that add-on should really be iri-level because it is super strong for its low amount of counter-play. with unbreakable base-kit, more sadako's that main her will be forced to use that add-on because ring drawing will have too much counter-play against certain teams.
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