How To Effectively Counterplay A Nurse
You cant
Comments
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You totally can.
Pray Nurse is bad.
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There is counter-play to Nurse.
However, I'd say it's sort of similar to Trickster's counterplay, not his strength. With Trickster, there is counter-play to his knives but it doesn't feel like meaningful counterplay.
There are just situations where you go down to Trickster and there's not really much you can do, if you aren't near a high-wall structure or a main building, sucks for you.
I find this to be similar to Nurse. If you aren't near some good LoS blockers, you die. If you aren't near a multi-story building, you die. If you try to play a pallet loop, you die.
That's sort of how I see it. Nurse has too many favorable positions to chase in and not enough unfavorable one's or neutral one's.
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what makes trickster not have meaningful counter-play? I can say for a fact that survivor's with tricky movement are way harder to hit then survivors that do not wiggle unpredictability. you can definitely run out of knifes in the chase as trickster if your aim is not on point. I can't say that about huntress though, I do not remember the last time I have ever ran out of hatchets mid-chase. Otz even remarked/complained that his ammo capacity is too small which forces the killer to run Iron maiden or ammo capacity add-ons.
I can agree with otz on that one. personally I run his +8 knife add-on. Trickster is the one character I wish my aim was better. I am so used to downing 2-3 people per huntress reload that the fact that I can only down 1.5 survivors consistently with trickster is highway robbery but as soon as I put his +8 knife add-on, Now I can down 2 survivors per reload.
I wonder what other people's experiences are for playing trickster.
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I feel like LOS blockers vs strong nurses only go as far to make nurse unable to understand where to blink. I do not think they do anything in term of helping your ability to dodge the blink. for me, the most consistent way that I have found to make nurse's miss blinks is holding-w and large distance blinks. If I am 15 meters away from her first blink, Its generally like 50-70% chance that I can outplay the nurse blinks by visualizing where she blinked, how long she charged and her viewing angle like if he looked up at the end of her first blink.
beyond the long range blinks that have really interesting mindgames, I think all other blinks are based off nurse messing up. The way I see it is that 50% of nurse's blinks are skill vs skill and the other 50% are just nurse-closing out chases from missing blinks.
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There IS sort-of-kinda nurse counterplay, but it's less countering Nurse and more just countering Dead by Daylight. Same as old Spirit.
As in, you're so unbelievably efficient with gens that you end the game before her ridiculous chase presence and pressure matters.
This doesn't work always and is very map and build dependant, but there's not much else you can do depending on how good the nurse is.
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There are rare places that have 2 gyms next to each other (both Crotus maps have them, middle of Suffo pit & Azarov resting place) the only places that possible to mind game Nurse.
You cant mind game Nurse in a single gym title. You can successfully pull 1-2 juke, but thats it. As long as you cant mind game by changing to another gym title, you down. Which you cant because you dont have enough speed to reach to another title.
Except double gym are broken to M1 killers.
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There's tons of fun counterplay to Nurse - LOS blockers, unpredictable movement, hugging objects with wonky hitboxes, using a floor beneath you to prevent the Nurse from being able to cut short her blink and running straight at her.
The problem is that if the Nurse is good enough, none of it matters. Nurse does not care about any physical obstacles except extreme distance, and her addons will handle that, so there's almost nothing you can do to put her in a position she can't hit you from. Chases with her are pure prediction on both players' parts, except the Nurse has a second blink for course correction. So for any Nurse experienced enough to always plonk that first blink into a close enough position... there's jack all you can do. Dead Hard once, I guess. Or never get caught (except Nurse thrives off aura perks, so have fun.)
Average Nurses aren't a problem unless they bring obnoxious builds like Starstruck/IF + range + Midwich, but her skill cap outstrips what every other killer in the game can do, and it's not even close.
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Hold W, make her guess your movements. Pray. Thats about it. (Not implying she needs a nerf, because she doesn't)
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The first counterplay to nurses is to keep your distance
The second is to force her to choose between two options.
run straight away or come back
Run straight across the wall or come back from the wall
Get off the building or don't get off the building
Get over the board or don't get over the board
Such
However, it is necessary for nurses to anticipate when to blink and how much to charge.
Otherwise, nurses who see your movements can attack you unilaterally.
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The only somewhat reliable counterplay is LOS blockers but that is entirely map dependent. For example shelter woods against a nurse is basically a lost cause
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Nurse needs a rework, because then many other problems of dbd will be solved.
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*suggests praying as counterplay to Nurse*
*claims Nurse does not need nerfed*
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You see, it's all very well and good saying to force a 50/50 but you seem to be forgetting that Nurse has 2 blinks, not 1. In most situations, even if you win the 50/50 she has another blink to fix her mistake.
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Nurse is a perfectly made character for players who want to be given an extreme advantage against their opponents in the vast, vast majority of their games.
For people who want a balanced game (or something nearing balance), Nurse is an outdated, obnoxious character used by people who think it is their skill alone, and not her busted mechanics giving them wins over equally skilled opponents.
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If you get Midwich, you lost.
If she is good, you lost.
If she is avarage, but plays good stuff and strong build, you lost.
If she is bad, plays good stuff and strong build, then you have a chance.
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Because when you 1v1 of the nurse, both of them just need to guess and hope they guess right. She does not need a nerf. Certain perks, or perk combos could use a nerf.
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I agree that there is nothing more boring than a nurse having fun with Agitation, Starstruck and Flood of Rage to slug in onse-shot survivors 😑
Starstruck could, for example, affect only one survivor, chosen randomly by the game, out of all the survivors who should have been exposed.
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Not always fifty-fifty, survivors actually have more options.
You seem to want the perfect answer, but it looks like a mistake
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Nurse is regarded as S-Tier for a reason. She's the killer equivalent of a final boss, and by final boss I mean Sephiroth or Dragonforce Guitar Hero of a final boss.
She has counterplay, but the higher the level of skill the player has of her, the much less of a chance you'll actually have against her, unless you yourself have an equally high level of skill.
The MMR is a big factor in this, and it's a lot to do with mis-matching at times. Nurse has also had some nerfs during her time, but it's hard to find how she can be nerfed fairly, without making her useless. It'll be interesting to see how this may be approached should it do.
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Everyone understands that you don't like the nurse, Omans, it's getting ridiculous to pollute every topic with your sweeping judgments.
Instead, use your knowledge and experience to participate in the discussions in a constructive way, especially on the most dangerous perks that the nurse can use.
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Since everyone can agree on the composition of the Tier-List of DbD killers, at least the fact that the strongest killers are Nurse, Blight, Twins, Spirit ...
Why not a bonus of BP that the survivors who would face these "top-tiers" killers would receive? 🤗
It wouldn't change the balance of the parties involved, but it might motivate the survivors who don't like these very powerful killers.
(yes, I know, some might say that it's a shame to have to motivate a player to ... play a game but somehow ... it wouldn't hurt anyone 😁)
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I like thay suggestion! Motivation is better than punishing, and maybe if someone climbs into, say, the top 5 mmr then they should be granted a buff to the BP they acrue every trial fpr as long as they remain there, and also makes a mark that, as you say, anyone who faces them also gains some extra BP.
That may not only make people feel better about a match if they get absolutely squashed, and also rewards the highest players for achieving thay status. Happy days all around!
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How can someone who has had a post deleted from this very thread by the mods suggest that another poster is polluting topics? Seems a bit backwards to me.
The only perk that is an issue for every killer is Eruption. There are numerous perks that are an issue solely on Nurse. The issue is not the perks, it is Nurse herself. Claiming the issue is some perks rather than Nurse is really strange.
You completely misunderstand me. The most constructive way to have a conversation regarding nurse is to continue voicing displeasure about how such an imbalanced character has been allowed to stay that way for as long as she has. Then, hope the devs finally respond to one of these threads.
What else is there? All the information on how to 'counter' nurse is already out there. When people ask how to counter her they are asking rhetorically.
In my opinion my posts are much more constructive than your posts, as my posts actually live in reality. Please be careful with your next post. Wouldn't want the thread to be deleted...
I do have one question, though: what platform do you play on? If you play on console it would perfectly explain why you have the opinion you do on Nurse.
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1) Break LoS
2) Try to predict where she'll think you'll go and blink
3) Go the other direction.
You have advantage - you know when she's charging your blink most of the time.
The core idea is to move away from a location in which she can get a hit while she's blinking and can't change her direction. You obviously can't do it just while she's blinking so you have to start slightly beforehand, thus you need to break LoS so she can't react to your jukes accordingly.
Another but similar way is to use difficult to navigate tiles like new Autoheaven ######### ones, Oni map statues, etc - the locations in which you can easily get away from direct lunge range and in which it would be very hard to properly estimate where you might be going.
If you don't have a way to break LoS, try to avoid running in a straight line and try double backs or fake double backs if she's anticipating that and try to build as much distance on her as possible, because that makes her waste blinks to catch up and that means you get to live another 10 seconds.
Nurse is also generally bad at tracking, so if your build includes chase drop perks like Lightweight, quick&quiet, lithe + dance with me combo, bite the bullet heal combos or you're not injured yet, you can try hiding from her if you just made her miss a blink and managed to break LoS for a considerable amount of time again. That usually works well on closed maps where she has zero clue where you're going if she lost sight of you for a while. It doesn't usually work to completely avoid chase, but it makes her waste additional time looking for you.
Overall, it's a regular mindgame in which you're supposed to make Nurse make a mistake by being as hard to read as possible. Obviously, it's not as reliable as smashing m1 killers with pallets and avoiding them with windows, however it's not completely impossible. In vacuum, Nurse's power isn't the most unfair to deal with in terms of "zero counterplay" because a lot of other modern m2 killers don't rely on reading survivors or anticipating their moves and just use their power following a few scripts and basically play their own game until you go down like the Artist, Trickster, etc.
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Let me tell you something, all these counterplay tips that people are writing are truly nonsense.
Break Los? If she is decent with one blink she will pass through the wall and the 2nd will hit you.
Mindgame? Even if you could dodge one or two times, you are probably not going to get more than 30 sec in chase.
The truth is the only REAL counterplay is the nurse being bad with their blink, it's the same as having no counterplay at all.
There is no skill from the survivor side that help you against her, you just hope the one using nurse is not good and will testing and screwing their blink over.
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I don't think we should reward those who play Nurse, Blight, Twins and Spirit, but only the survivors who play them 😋
Indeed, as a survivor, you can't choose which killer you face, so the BP bonus would be due to chance only ☺️
Whereas someone who is a hand nurse would be continuously given a bonus while those who don't use it would get nothing 🤔
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I'm sorry...why are Twins top tier exactly?
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I had understood that at very high rank, they could be very dangerous 🤔
I leave it to those who play in tournament conditions or at very high MMR to clarify whether this is the case or not 🤗
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I run a build that will screw up all but the best Nurses if you can lose LOS for a second or two - Iron Will, Dance With Me, Lucky Break and Off the Record or I get rid of Dance with Me for Lightweight at times.
Once Nurse fatigues after landing a hit, I use that speed boost to quickly take a weird path and will even go behind them then crouch behind something. Nobody expects Iron Will any more and it works surprisingly often.
Always remember to shake up what you are doing, don't just double back or camp corners every time. Run wide of loops rather than run tight to the pallet/window as you would other killers as Nurses will often try to predict that.
If you get caught in the open, fake a double back (but your timing will need to be good) but generally being out in the open is a RIP like it is with many killers.
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I still don't understand why devs haven't made an official statement regarding Nurse, are they happy with her current state? Are they going to rework her or adjust the addons? Instead we have here a never ending battle between people, who religiously play and defend her on every single topic with a word nurse in it. And then we have people, who believe she's just not healthy for the game.
IMO Nurse is a balancing hell in general. Each new map they create, must be adjusted just for nurse, so she's able to blink without glitching. Every new decent perk makes her even more unpleasant to go against. She basically creates a lose-lose scenario. Majority of survivors dislike going against her, because she ignores every core defense mechanic (Pallets and windows) that is given to survivor. Daily arguments about her balance state are just tiring.
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"Claiming the issue is some perks rather than Nurse is really strange."
Between a nurse who uses Starstruck and one who does not, there is a huge difference.
Personally, I don't use this skill on my nurse, I know very well that with it, she could be even more dangerous, but somewhere, I tell myself that there are many other skills to use, which are not abused like Starstruck either.
"The most constructive way to have a conversation regarding nurse is to continue voicing displeasure about how such an imbalanced character has been allowed to stay that way for as long as she has."
On the contrary, I think it's completely counterproductive to do that.
Basically, what you're advising is to complain, again and again... complaining has never been constructive.
I'm sure that already, if you take away the possibility to use Starstruck from the nurses, a lot of players would be very happy with it, for example (redesigning the perk, or whatever, it doesn't matter, I was talking about the simple result, of course).
"When people ask how to counter her they are asking rhetorically."
Some, perhaps. But not all, of course.
There are players who will have run into a nurse who is more skilled than they are, and will have decided that the outcome of the game will have been that "The nurse is too strong, I can't do anything."
That's why I often ask people who come and complain in a very childish way to show their gameplay ... because I think there are probably things they could improve, and things they just don't think about ... I tease them, but I'll be the first one to advise them quietly if they agree to show anything ...
But then again, I don't have too many illusions ... so if they prefer to complain without questioning themselves ...
I'm not saying the nurse isn't strong.
I'm also not saying that these players who come crying will be able to pulverize the nurse afterwards if they are a little less self-absorbed.
I just ask them a simple question, see their gameplay, even in anonymous mode, I don't care who they are.
"I do have one question, though: what platform do you play on? If you play on console it would perfectly explain why you have the opinion you do on Nurse."
What is the difference between nurse on console and nurse on PC ? I play DbD on PC.
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There are also a lot of players who don't do this; I don't understand why.
They don't shave the walls. It is a simple mathematical principle.
When you take a turn, the tighter you take it, the shorter the time you take; the more time you save.
In a chase with a nurse, by skimming the walls, you get to the edges of the structure with a few tenths of a second advantage, which can sometimes make all the difference.
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Idk, I think the major thing with them is slugging, and with the basekit UB coming, whether they were good or not, they will be garbage, lol
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You assume certain things that are not true, and make generalizations about them.
For example, the "defenders" of the nurse are tired of the fact that every time a player encounters a difficulty, the only reaction he or she will have is to complain (but on the other hand, these players are afraid to show us any video of them playing against the nurse; this proof of bad faith alone is most irritating).
It's also annoying that instead of discussing solutions that could be completely agreed upon, such as reworking certain perks so that they don't make the nurse as powerful as she is now when she uses them, what you hear in just about every speech is: "Delete the nurse, delete her blink, turn her into a Spirit-like in 4.4 with a tp available every 7500 years, prevent her from blinking through palettes, prevent her from moving from one floor to another, delete her second blink, etc. "
This speech is clearly geared towards simply wanting to make a killer that they have a problem with on a daily basis (a daily basis that they have never shown us yet, by the way...) look ridiculous.
Not healthy for the game? I would say not healthy for THEIR game.
"Majority of survivors dislike going against her, because she ignores every core defense mechanic (Pallets and windows) that is given to survivor."
I would rather say: because they don't want to rack their brains and get out of their classic loop method that works on the other 28 killers.
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The devs aren't doing anything about Nurse because there is either no reason to or any issues with her are minor enough that there are more pressing priorities.
BHVR has access to a lot of data. Pre 6.1 DH was nerfed was mentioned because after hit validation it gave a disproportionately large advantage to the survivor and was unbalancing. Old Ruin from way back was nerfed as it gave a disproportionately large advantage to the Killer and was unbalancing.
Nurse isn't being touched currently because playing Nurse either doesn't give a disproportionate advantage, the advantages are so small that there is no reason for them to take precedence over more important issues, or any disproportionate advantage hasn't been seen yet.
When you examine the Nerf Nurse! threads you see a lot of let's balance Nurse on SupaAlf and no let's balance survivors around Hens or the hardcore survivor teams. That's self-serving. If it's okay to balance Nurse around SupaAlf it's also okay to balance survivors around Hens and his SWF death squad.
BHVR doesn't do that because it would be unfair to their players and they're cognizant of that. BHVR does take a lot of flak but quite a bit of it is unjustified in my opinion as they've shown they consider the fun of all players and consider multiple factors in their decisions.
What would giving a verbal statement do though? The people who obsessively hate Nurse would still complain and BHVR already showed with their Kill Rates there's a lot more nuanced take to things than the forums take into account. So, they kind of did give a statement but not directly. If Nurse doesn't have a disproportionate success rate for at least over 95% of MMR ranges where exactly is the problem?
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Have you not seen what happens when the Devs answer the malcontents on the forum? They generally only snap back harder if they don't like the answer.
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As far as I am concerned, I find that Supaalf is not a nurse that can be taken as an example, well, at least for "fairplay".
I don't know how he played with the nurse before he started his winning streak, but just to see how during his "marathon", he doesn't hesitate to camp / tunnel or slug even when it is frankly not necessary and that the survivors don't put any pressure on him 🤔
I know, he does it to win (otherwise he wouldn't have chosen THIS build for his marathon) ... but still, tryhard with THIS build is exactly what I call something absolutely unfun, with the nurse 😑 which is why I wouldn't mind a remake of Starstruck at all.
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At the same time, who wants to get slugged the whole game? 😥
I've met twins who played very well, without having to force the slug. Of course, sometimes, they put a little pressure if needed, with Victor, but nothing too serious 🤗
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Nurse was S-tier, and OP before the perk Starstruck was created. If Starstruck was never created, she would still be viewed the same way. All of the threads you have posted in on Nurse would have still been created. The perks are not the issue, as unfun as Starstruck can be. And it is unfun. But guess what. No one except you is making the mistake of thinking the issue is Starstruck, and not Nurse. Seen any posts about Starstruck lately? Didn't think so.
You are truly missing the forest for the trees.
You hold the very misinformed opinion that because it was put in the game, it is balanced. If it is in the game, then it can be beaten. So that makes it okay and balanced. That is a very, very bad mindset to have for a PvP game. Very bad. Of course Nurse can be beaten.
Any character being played by a person can be beaten. In Overwatch I wouldn't be surprised if a GM player playing Mercy could take on a team of bronze players. Player skill always has a strong influence.
However, and I will say this as simply as I can: the act of playing nurse gives the person playing her a distinct advantage over his/her opponents. That is the issue people have with Nurse.
There were people arguing that moris were fine. There were people arguing that keys were fine. There were people arguing that many of the broken addons that ended up being nerfed were fine. There were people arguing that Dead hard was fine. Because they were in the game. Because the other team could win even if they were in the game, so why would they need to be nerfed? And now, here you and your nurse defenders are, arguing the exact same thing. Nurse is fine, to you.
Something being beatable does not mean it is not too powerful. It is shocking that this needs to be explained.
I assumed from the way that you talked about Nurse that you play her on console where she is much harder, and not seen as the top killer like she is on PC. I'm surprised. Then, there is no reason you should think she is fine, besides you not knowing how to play her at a high level and thus not knowing what she is capable of, of course.
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Nurse does have counterplays... double walls, breaking LOS. And before anything, rocks and trees do exist, don't think in breaking LOS means only a structure... the second blink is for correction, yes, but it's also way shorter than the first one and you don't really have a lot of time to aim...
Yes, Nurse's is kind of map dependant BUT all killers are somehow capable of doing that, a skilled killer who knows how to hide the red stain will catch you off-guard in a loop... every killer has its counters, Nurse is one of the hardest killers to counter but if you are willing, you can know how to do it, I mean, I've countered nurse back when she had five blinks...
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But these "counterplays" you say are the most unreliable and niche plays you could possibly get. Maybe you dodge her once in a LOS break, she will inmediately know what you will do next.
And even if you could consistently find LOS break and double walls, that is an extremely restricting way of countering a killer, and even so it will still relies on the nurse being bad than the surv being skilled.
The other strongest killers out there, like blight, artist with their respective strong powers still how to respect pallets and windows. It makes no sense that nurse can bypass all these mechanics.
She should have a sign over her head saying "play with a strong swf or die".
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Really? Huh, I guess I can't say too much because the amount of times I've seen them in like 2-3 years, is enough to count on only one hand, lol
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As sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear: I don't mean extra BP for playing a powerful killer, I meant for people who make it into the top 5% mmr out of all killers or survivors. It gives an acknowledgement of making it to a certain level of dedication to the game. I'll never reach that, but those who do play really well could see it as a nice acknowledgement. Or maybe just the top 1%?
Not saying they have to, and your idea is definitely a decent one. Mine is jist a throw on from that. Admittedly, mine isn't as well thought out - more a reactive thought in addition to yours. :)
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She is fine as you see in the stats. So no problem there.
For all of my games - when she is new or bad - and you get good teammates there is a chance.
Half decent Nurses mostly get us.
I sometimes manage some good jukes, but again, then it is not a very good Nurse.
A good Nurse slaughters us in most games often at 4-5 gens left.
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My bad, I didn't understand!
I never thought of a reward for this kind of thing, I just thought of rewarding those who face the most powerful killers 😋
But it's sure that there would be a lot of ideas to develop on potential BP gains ... although I'm afraid that it could provoke, by competitive spirit, even more dirty gameplay, precisely where public games are by definition made to have fun 😥
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I must admit that I very rarely come across them too... maybe my MMR is not high enough, or they are at another MMR, I don't know ... 😁
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Do you actually get new or bad nurses?
Lucky you
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There is that, true. That never crossed my mind, so nice work for pointing it out! The last thing we need is people playing in the most unfun way on either side, just to strive for the 1%.
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Not really.
I remember maybe one or two games where i escaped.
But i remeber a lot more of instant 4 slugs...
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My last nurse game
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I remember a Nurse with over 100 hours in the last 2 weeks playtime... that is a lot...
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