So, 2 free survivor perks are base... when can we see killer get the same treatment?

nope

There are many scenarios where a killer leaves a survivor slugged on the ground, because they literally can't get the survivor on a hook. If the killer is standing over a survivor that is in the dying state, give them an extra button to teleport the survivor on a hook.

Couldn’t this also be resolved by increasing hook coverage and making hooks not break when used to sacrifice? That seems like it would solve the same issue while mostly keeping existing mechanics.

YEAAAA 2 STACKS OF STBFL LETS G

Wonder what the stack conversion is counting the decreased hit burst speed (probably 2.5/3).

Admittedly, I find it hard to really become emotive during these discussions as I don't really struggle at all on either side.

That's right, those aren't the major influencers.. The major influencer is the ~10 second increase per each generator, ineffective Decisive Strike, and .. the requirement to properly time Dead Hard to have its effect, you know.

If those extra few seconds per each chase with Dead Hard' dash pre-rework were such a huge difference, then I'd assume that combining faster vaulting, destroying pallets, damaging generators, and successful attack recoveries could make such a huge difference aswell.

I do refuse to believe that it's because of survivors sacrificing each other on hook, although that's exactly what I do recall experiencing; Not necessarily sacrificing themselves on the hook, but rather giving up and offering themselves to the killer to get hooked over'n'ver, which is even worse than sacrificing on the hook, as that requires at least one survivor to leave generator repairs and unhook the griefer, who only offers himself or herself to the killer, effectively wasting one of the survivors' time.

That alone, plus a huge influx of tunneling and slugging have had such effects.. Given how weak will slugging become, tunneling will only get worse. Well, at least, we'll see killers crying about ~3 second stun per each hook.. I don't like this at all.

The time added from perks like dead hard is completely different than the time reduced to actions like kicking and wiping because of their placement. Gaining a few seconds with dead hard (even the old version) meant nothing if those few seconds didn't get you to a pallet or window to reset chase positioning, much like they almost never do with any of the changes that were made to the killer basekit.

If it was something like the killer could just do an instant ranged grab from a distance as a one time thing with a cooldown that would be busted as hell for good reason, because it would be able to guarantee value from its timesave by providing all its value in a short burst at will. Its why even a mediocre perk like coup de grace has the limitation of gens being completed: Even just extending the lunge at just the right time makes more of a difference than minor timesaves that don't fit within chase cadences.

Ironically of all the basekit changes to killer, i feel like the slightly faster kicking might be the most influential, moreso even than the blade wipe or shorter hit sprint duration (even combined) since it makes things like zoning before pallet breaking more likely to trip up a survivor from routing to the next defense, and even that is a pretty minimal difference in reaction time.

At the end of the day, the point is that time saves and time wastes have disproportionate value based on when they apply, as time differences are generally relative in this game. All reducing blade wipe recovery and on hit sprint does is give the survivor slightly less time to reach their next defensive point, to which the changes are extremely minimal. If they understand how to route their chases at all, this makes little difference. If they're using a perk like Windows, it makes absolutely no difference at all unless they ignored everything and ran into the middle of a deadzone. If they don't understand routing chases, they'll likely not know where to go before they get hit, waste the sprint, then think killer op. So basically just a buff to killer in low MMR, where they already do well more often than not.

It's either I'm getting chased for minutes and barely any/no gens get done, or I'm trying to be a gen jockey and my teammates get downed in less than 15-20 seconds. I'm just praying that I finally get matched up with people who can at least know to do gens while they're not in chase.

Yeah I'm just waiting for how it looks on the PTB. Though I don't expect much good from 22.5 second unlimited self pickups.

I just try to ABM1 (Always Be M1'ing) in Solo Queue. There are games where I literally get 3 gens done solo while my team does ???

I think the changes are just going to push people towards stuff like Lethal Pursuer/DeadLock/No Way Out/Filler (maybe NOED) in order to camp/tunnel someone out within the opening minutes of gameplay, camp/tunnel out another, and ping pong between the last two until both are slugged for the auto win (no reason to hook them/allow for a rescue to prolong the game).

Easily just place them on hook? So many maps have hook dead zones and you know killers are gonna see the spread out hook offering every match as well.This change if it goes through will make killer unplayable.

Your comment reminded me of:

It does only if you basic attack, like without blinking. But why would you do that? I know what you're saying though.

Have you played killer lately, I mean really?

So I can just tunnel with Freddy and get a 4k?

survivors had to use a bandaid method (perks) to deal with something a killer could do without a perk so I think it is a little fair that they gave survivors these as a base kit ability

The question would be what would even be considered base kit for killer that would prevent something that is toxic and unfair for them that the survivors get as a basekit

With Unbreakable, you can pick yourself up in 23.7 seconds. Basekit Unbreakable will take 45 seconds. So that's about half an Unbreakable. Killers got half a Brutal Strength basekit. As well as 25% of STBFL. And more if you also consider the hit sprint reduction. Also 10% of Weasel.

And regardless, it's not about some petty tit-for-tat, these things should be done on a basis of the state of the game, and camping/tunnelling have always been problems and they continue to be (tunnelling honestly only got worse). They are much too effective for how easy they can be, and they often yield uninteractive or downright anti-gameplay experiences. And this is especially the case for non-SWF groups and therefore exacerbates the already problematic balance issue of the SWF/solo gap. There should in fact be more measures to combat these things, such as Kindred basekit, removal of hook grabs, disabling of killer powers within a certain vicinity of hook, unhook invincibility replacing unhook Endurance such that you can get the latter on top of the the former, rebuffed DS, ... Naturally, any and all of these things have to go along with buffs to killers in other regards.

For the record: I'm not a fan of this basekit Unbreakable idea and don't know where it is coming from. Camping and tunnelling are by far the most prevalent and problematic aspects of killer gameplay, and BHVR decides that slugging needs to be rebalanced? I for one enjoy slugging playstyles a lot, playing either role. I am disappointed with this change which will all but delete this playstyle, you will only be able to slug opportunistically for a brief duration anymore. Knock Out is basically dead, and it as well as Third Seal were some of my favourite perks for a playstyle where I just chase until I down people and then leave them. That is a very welcome change of pace even when I'm playing survivor, since there's a lot of action and chases and little downtime of going through the motions, as well as no camping and tunnelling.

I hope the universal Unbreakable thing won't make it to live. What I do however think does need to be addressed are instances where everyone is in the dying or hooked state. Not only does it make for a boring endgame sweeping the map for slugs or trying to hide as a slug, but there's obviously also obnoxious people that let people bleed out just to be annoying. Allowing survivors to pick themselves up if everyone is either dead, dying or hooked would solve this. It would obviously still be a survivor buff though, and I would want there to be some endgame buff for killers to go alongside with this. Plenty of those to choose from, including perk buffs, various of which BHVR should have shipped ages ago already anyway.

On a related note, the "Mori" changes that apparently were the reason for BHVR to consider basekit Unbreakable to begin with are also strange. Since you'll only ever get to mori people when you have already won (or when everyone else has escaped), it's not like it's a killer buff. Plus with the stupid, uncalled-for changes to Devour and Rancor, as well as the changes to the Mori offerings themselves of course, we'll if anything see much fewer kill animations than we used to. It's basically Cypress Mori basekit, and anybody that's ever used those knows that they are far from a guaranteed kill.

in that case it would be perfectly balanced since nurse relies on her blinks to catch people (after blinking no matter what, you'll have the SAME cooldown since fatigue isn't affected by STBFL). if you are caught by a walking nurse then you deserved to being downed

I am as much a killer main as they get, but it's true what many people already said: in an asymmetric game you don't go tit for tat, you fix problems and sometimes one side got more glaring problems and gets more fixes.

I am sad about the BT basekit, but that's somewhat on the killers community side. The patch 6.1 was a liberation act for killers, as the game was pretty much in the survivors hand and felt just so oppressive and suffocating to play, but when the patch dropped many killer players didn't shift gears, but doubled down and pushed their advantage any way possible, leading to unprecedented tunneling situations.

So BT was probably the way to deal with that, but honestly I am puzzled by the Unbreakable/Mori situation. I don't think that slugging is that much of a problem or pandemic, but someone had this idea with the mori sudden death system and I really hope that they don't go with this as it works now. It changes the game up, but IMHO too radical.

I also think that all this basekit perks should be severely limited. Of course, once the box of Pandora was opened, people would be asking for more, but too much basekit stuff will water down things too much and actually fight perk diversity, because peeps will get away with only playing their favorite perks, ie mostly meta perks, instead of running what their playstyle needs for then to thrive and survive.

The only perk that I would consider for basekit might be a mini BBP. In the past everyone ran BBQ for the bonus BP and many tried to hook every survivor at least once, but while doing that they also got shown some survivors aura and just by opportunity this drove killers off the hooks and back into the game. In essence BBQ was probably the most healthy perk in the game and by giving killers a BP bonus for hooking everyone once and showing at basekit the most far away survivors aura after hooking someone, we would be seeing way less camping.

I would rather have killer powers buffed If they need them. If killers get buffed with basekit perks then every killer gets buffed and we don't need every killer buffed

Tbh, I never thought about something like this. Base regression is painfully slow, but if each piston locked into place once its fully repaired, regression speeds could be touched. I don't know if I would actually want that as a killer, as more then just a few games have been snatched out of the survivors hand by continuously regressing the same gen over and over, downing a survivor, hooking them on a painRes hook, coming back to the gen, rinse, repeat. A lot of this games would not have been manageable if the gen couldn't regress below a certain point, but maybe this is the kinda change, the breath of fresh air, that the game could need. Its definitely worth discussing and bringing to BHVRs attention.

I’d love for the killers arguing for this in this thread to address the elephant in the room: the 60% kill rate at all MMR. No one has yet, and if you want to add basekit perks to killer you need to justify raising the kill rate even more.

Please enlighten me.

Pretty much.

Even more, the temporarily disabled dc penalty and the huge amount of people that disconnected should give an estimate of how many people suicide regularly. Pushing the whole kill rate even further.

Perhaps basekit Deer Stalker? Able to see the aura of downed survivors within 12 meters?