So, 2 free survivor perks are base... when can we see killer get the same treatment?
Comments
-
I'm still of the opinion that most players in this game are bad on both sides. It's just killer has always dominated at the low end which will never change. There is less ability to w and get free chase escapes with old DH and IW being gone. And most definitely there is a 3-5% exaggeration with suicide on hook.
2 -
nope
0 -
What specific ability do you think is missing from all killers’ base kits? They aren’t giving survivors free perks, if anything they’re identifying abilities that should have been part of their kit in the first place. Them being similar or identical to perks that previously existed is irrelevant to a discussion on what abilities should or should not be granted.
It’s like a band aid vs stitches. I wouldn’t call stitches a free band aid.
3 -
There are many scenarios where a killer leaves a survivor slugged on the ground, because they literally can't get the survivor on a hook. If the killer is standing over a survivor that is in the dying state, give them an extra button to teleport the survivor on a hook.
4 -
That's a good point, but the question is.. Will Unbreakable's effect to increase the recovery speed disappear after getting up on your own, or will it persist and possibly make for a faster recovery even after getting downed more times? That's what should be added and mentioned in the perk's descriptions, as Unbreakable's increased recovery speed shall only apply once to make it fair.
Regardless, I'll be running my Tenacity and Boon: Exponential with Boon: Circle of Healing even after the update. I just don't care, and there isn't really anyone trying to flashlight save you in Solo Queue.
0 -
killer is in the best place it's ever been. I know we say this all the time but it's the truth. It started out so bad for them that any single improvement is amazing.
The reason survivors are getting new stuff added for their base kit is because they are completly blank to begin with, that's why everything from a killer perspective is designed with fail safes to ensure survivors have a way out.
They have absolutly nothing to defend themselves. Can't DH if there's no Perk, can't heal alone if there's no Perk or Medkit. Can't counter tunneling or Camping without stuff like OTR, DS, Reassurance,etc.
The only real defense Survivors have is Maps, which some are still busted in survivor favor by their sheer size or number of resources.
IF you're in a 1v1 basekit chase it favors killers most of the time. You can chain loops all you want but UNLESS you're in a BUSTED loop then the killer can always catch you with Bloodlust. Then you have to consider killer powers. Some killers will down you much faster than others.
Nurse can ignore Maps for the most part so good luck with that. Some killers have ranged attacks too so pathing becomes a necessary thing to survive. But don't forget Survivors had insta heals, DH for Distance was everywhere in every chase, DS wasn't an anti tunnel tool but a full on WEAPON,60 second AHAH YOU CANT DO ANYTHING TO ME tool, og Mettle of Man was busted. Og Lucky Break was ( and the curent version still kinda is) busted. PTB Spirit was weak, PTB Ghostface was an abomination. Og Legion was gamebreaking in favor of killers but then he was gutted and mending and deep wounds have had a bunch of changes since then. Then Spirit became number 2, GF got a few changes, reveal mechanic is still as wonky as ever. SCratch marks got shadow nerfed. Auras had changes, survivor movement animation has had changes, HUD had changes.
For the longest time M1 killers had a sliver of a chance at winning. Now they can afford to play the game on mostly equal terms.
Hyperfocus is absolutly busted for example but most survivor cant even hit a Great skill check so Hyperfocus is only dangerous in the hands of a smaller percentage of players. Personally i just make due with fast track, but only if im being selfish and ignoring little jimmies who go down right after again. So manny times i can't even use Fast Track cause i have no time to do gens cause i'm the only one in conditions to make a rescue. So i can't even gen rush when i want to, which jsut shows that not only my teammates are bad most of the time but killers are getting thir downs and sacrifices. Which means theres no need to tunnel or camp but allas scrubs be scrubs.
1 -
Don't forget 2 stacks of old thana, but on gens only.
1 -
Couldn’t this also be resolved by increasing hook coverage and making hooks not break when used to sacrifice? That seems like it would solve the same issue while mostly keeping existing mechanics.
0 -
No. There are still a lot of other scenarios where I'm forced to leave a survivor slugged, which includes things like pallet saves, flashlight saves, hook sabotages, survivor bodyblocking, boil over, flip flop, being forced to drop a survivor, and other things.
If killers are getting a major strategy option heavily nerfed, it's fair for survivors to also get a major strategy option heavily nerfed. BHVR should be addressing WHY killers slug, instead of placing killers in lose/lose situations that will make bully SWFs even more miserable than they currently are.
1 -
Base kit Shadowborn is all I ask for better killer experience and also as help to who needs Shadowborn to even play the game.
2 -
But KiLLeRs HaVe 61% kIll RAtE TheY don'T nEeD Any bUFFS
yes and nurse has the lowest kill rate, is she weak?
no.
the stats are not everything and just because low tier killers got to play the game FOR ONCE, doesn't mean everyone is op
5 -
YEAAAA 2 STACKS OF STBFL LETS G
2 -
Pretty sure it's because of the influx of tunnelers, as well as people ending themselves on hook. 2 stacks of SBTFL and 10% extra kicking speed doesn't really help with those.
2 -
Wonder what the stack conversion is counting the decreased hit burst speed (probably 2.5/3).
Admittedly, I find it hard to really become emotive during these discussions as I don't really struggle at all on either side.
1 -
I don't struggle at all at killer (I only got 3k's and 4k's last night) but I think it's laughable to see people say the basekit 2 stacks of STBFL are making a difference.
Also how are you not struggling at solo q, I've been looping killers for 2000 years but instead of doing the last gen my teammates are walking in circles doing some ritual.
2 -
That's right, those aren't the major influencers.. The major influencer is the ~10 second increase per each generator, ineffective Decisive Strike, and .. the requirement to properly time Dead Hard to have its effect, you know.
If those extra few seconds per each chase with Dead Hard' dash pre-rework were such a huge difference, then I'd assume that combining faster vaulting, destroying pallets, damaging generators, and successful attack recoveries could make such a huge difference aswell.
I do refuse to believe that it's because of survivors sacrificing each other on hook, although that's exactly what I do recall experiencing; Not necessarily sacrificing themselves on the hook, but rather giving up and offering themselves to the killer to get hooked over'n'ver, which is even worse than sacrificing on the hook, as that requires at least one survivor to leave generator repairs and unhook the griefer, who only offers himself or herself to the killer, effectively wasting one of the survivors' time.
That alone, plus a huge influx of tunneling and slugging have had such effects.. Given how weak will slugging become, tunneling will only get worse. Well, at least, we'll see killers crying about ~3 second stun per each hook.. I don't like this at all.
1 -
Yeah, I'd say the extra 10 seconds per generator helps tunnelers a lot. As well as most people running OTR, which you can easily negate by hitting them right after they get unhooked.
Ok it's a bit disingenuous to say dead hard only added "those extra few seconds per each chase." Some chases would last for 30+ seconds just because they reached a super safe pallet or window. Only time it'd buy someone "extra few seconds" is if they didn't use it for distance.
I do think people giving up on hook was part of the problem. I mean the fact that it was so widely talked about both from normal players as well as streamers/content creators says enough. I'd honestly say it at least influenced 3% of the rate.
I think basekit UB is fine imo, 45 seconds is long. It shouldn't go to 22.5 seconds with UB though.
4 -
The time added from perks like dead hard is completely different than the time reduced to actions like kicking and wiping because of their placement. Gaining a few seconds with dead hard (even the old version) meant nothing if those few seconds didn't get you to a pallet or window to reset chase positioning, much like they almost never do with any of the changes that were made to the killer basekit.
If it was something like the killer could just do an instant ranged grab from a distance as a one time thing with a cooldown that would be busted as hell for good reason, because it would be able to guarantee value from its timesave by providing all its value in a short burst at will. Its why even a mediocre perk like coup de grace has the limitation of gens being completed: Even just extending the lunge at just the right time makes more of a difference than minor timesaves that don't fit within chase cadences.
Ironically of all the basekit changes to killer, i feel like the slightly faster kicking might be the most influential, moreso even than the blade wipe or shorter hit sprint duration (even combined) since it makes things like zoning before pallet breaking more likely to trip up a survivor from routing to the next defense, and even that is a pretty minimal difference in reaction time.
At the end of the day, the point is that time saves and time wastes have disproportionate value based on when they apply, as time differences are generally relative in this game. All reducing blade wipe recovery and on hit sprint does is give the survivor slightly less time to reach their next defensive point, to which the changes are extremely minimal. If they understand how to route their chases at all, this makes little difference. If they're using a perk like Windows, it makes absolutely no difference at all unless they ignored everything and ran into the middle of a deadzone. If they don't understand routing chases, they'll likely not know where to go before they get hit, waste the sprint, then think killer op. So basically just a buff to killer in low MMR, where they already do well more often than not.
1 -
Solid killer performance.
*solidarity nod*
I get potato or sandbaggy (ie, obviously going for the hatch challenge and playing poorly towards the end of an easy trial) about 25% of the time. I don't know if it's MMR, Luck, or a combination of the two, but a good portion of my games are winnable/mine to lose.
I'm interested to see how the new changes play out because I'm 100% certain that the game will not shift in the direction people are hoping it will.
0 -
It's either I'm getting chased for minutes and barely any/no gens get done, or I'm trying to be a gen jockey and my teammates get downed in less than 15-20 seconds. I'm just praying that I finally get matched up with people who can at least know to do gens while they're not in chase.
Yeah I'm just waiting for how it looks on the PTB. Though I don't expect much good from 22.5 second unlimited self pickups.
1 -
Points 1 and 2 are good...
But 3 no not going to happen...
Base Gen regression is .25, 200% of that is .50 (what the others are IDK)
What's base progression again? 1.0 (what the others are IDK)
And the Gen being at 90 charges just makes regression even longer
1 minute and 30 seconds to repair a Gen.... 5 minutes and 47 seconds to regress a Gen at 99%
So the 90 charge wasn't something that Killer wanted (at least the ones that I talked to)
0 -
I just try to ABM1 (Always Be M1'ing) in Solo Queue. There are games where I literally get 3 gens done solo while my team does ???
I think the changes are just going to push people towards stuff like Lethal Pursuer/DeadLock/No Way Out/Filler (maybe NOED) in order to camp/tunnel someone out within the opening minutes of gameplay, camp/tunnel out another, and ping pong between the last two until both are slugged for the auto win (no reason to hook them/allow for a rescue to prolong the game).
0 -
By all means make ruin basekit, I'd ignore the totem to prevent any use of eruption, overcharge or call of brine, all of which are far more oppressive than ruin is.
(Side note: never thought I'd see the day where I say ruin is nothing compared to overcharge, times do change)
0 -
Easily just place them on hook? So many maps have hook dead zones and you know killers are gonna see the spread out hook offering every match as well.This change if it goes through will make killer unplayable.
1 -
The average player is bad at this game, and when you play bad it goes in the killers favor most of the time. Everyone knows at low levels of play this game is killer sided, but at high levels it is survivor sided. Why do you think so many DBD tournaments have to enact various rules and point systems in order to actually make the game fair?
2 -
Your comment reminded me of:
2 -
Exactly how it will be!
0 -
It does only if you basic attack, like without blinking. But why would you do that? I know what you're saying though.
0 -
Long time coming, unlike survivors getting invincibility off hook and on the ground.
0 -
Have you played killer lately, I mean really?
1 -
Y'all just throw numbers around and don't question why they came to be.
1 -
So I can just tunnel with Freddy and get a 4k?
0 -
You wouldn't be able to, no.
0 -
survivors had to use a bandaid method (perks) to deal with something a killer could do without a perk so I think it is a little fair that they gave survivors these as a base kit ability
The question would be what would even be considered base kit for killer that would prevent something that is toxic and unfair for them that the survivors get as a basekit
2 -
Though other people may be able to if they use tunnelly builds such as:
or
0 -
With Unbreakable, you can pick yourself up in 23.7 seconds. Basekit Unbreakable will take 45 seconds. So that's about half an Unbreakable. Killers got half a Brutal Strength basekit. As well as 25% of STBFL. And more if you also consider the hit sprint reduction. Also 10% of Weasel.
And regardless, it's not about some petty tit-for-tat, these things should be done on a basis of the state of the game, and camping/tunnelling have always been problems and they continue to be (tunnelling honestly only got worse). They are much too effective for how easy they can be, and they often yield uninteractive or downright anti-gameplay experiences. And this is especially the case for non-SWF groups and therefore exacerbates the already problematic balance issue of the SWF/solo gap. There should in fact be more measures to combat these things, such as Kindred basekit, removal of hook grabs, disabling of killer powers within a certain vicinity of hook, unhook invincibility replacing unhook Endurance such that you can get the latter on top of the the former, rebuffed DS, ... Naturally, any and all of these things have to go along with buffs to killers in other regards.
For the record: I'm not a fan of this basekit Unbreakable idea and don't know where it is coming from. Camping and tunnelling are by far the most prevalent and problematic aspects of killer gameplay, and BHVR decides that slugging needs to be rebalanced? I for one enjoy slugging playstyles a lot, playing either role. I am disappointed with this change which will all but delete this playstyle, you will only be able to slug opportunistically for a brief duration anymore. Knock Out is basically dead, and it as well as Third Seal were some of my favourite perks for a playstyle where I just chase until I down people and then leave them. That is a very welcome change of pace even when I'm playing survivor, since there's a lot of action and chases and little downtime of going through the motions, as well as no camping and tunnelling.
I hope the universal Unbreakable thing won't make it to live. What I do however think does need to be addressed are instances where everyone is in the dying or hooked state. Not only does it make for a boring endgame sweeping the map for slugs or trying to hide as a slug, but there's obviously also obnoxious people that let people bleed out just to be annoying. Allowing survivors to pick themselves up if everyone is either dead, dying or hooked would solve this. It would obviously still be a survivor buff though, and I would want there to be some endgame buff for killers to go alongside with this. Plenty of those to choose from, including perk buffs, various of which BHVR should have shipped ages ago already anyway.
On a related note, the "Mori" changes that apparently were the reason for BHVR to consider basekit Unbreakable to begin with are also strange. Since you'll only ever get to mori people when you have already won (or when everyone else has escaped), it's not like it's a killer buff. Plus with the stupid, uncalled-for changes to Devour and Rancor, as well as the changes to the Mori offerings themselves of course, we'll if anything see much fewer kill animations than we used to. It's basically Cypress Mori basekit, and anybody that's ever used those knows that they are far from a guaranteed kill.
Post edited by zarr on2 -
Invincibility on top of endurance? So I can bodyblock twice for my teammate and still have a third health state plus an exhaustion perk combod with old DS and the potential for a reset via DS in order to use DH for a total of four - five health states on unhook?
I agree with most of your points but that sounds absolutely ridiculous for swf unless it also comes with the stipulation that endurance and this invincibility state make you lose collision so you can't bodyblock with them.
0 -
in that case it would be perfectly balanced since nurse relies on her blinks to catch people (after blinking no matter what, you'll have the SAME cooldown since fatigue isn't affected by STBFL). if you are caught by a walking nurse then you deserved to being downed
1 -
Think most of the killer roster is in a decent state.
Bar the killers whom were rubbish efore the perk overhaul, it's their powers that are dated, no amount of perks will help them.
1 -
I am as much a killer main as they get, but it's true what many people already said: in an asymmetric game you don't go tit for tat, you fix problems and sometimes one side got more glaring problems and gets more fixes.
I am sad about the BT basekit, but that's somewhat on the killers community side. The patch 6.1 was a liberation act for killers, as the game was pretty much in the survivors hand and felt just so oppressive and suffocating to play, but when the patch dropped many killer players didn't shift gears, but doubled down and pushed their advantage any way possible, leading to unprecedented tunneling situations.
So BT was probably the way to deal with that, but honestly I am puzzled by the Unbreakable/Mori situation. I don't think that slugging is that much of a problem or pandemic, but someone had this idea with the mori sudden death system and I really hope that they don't go with this as it works now. It changes the game up, but IMHO too radical.
I also think that all this basekit perks should be severely limited. Of course, once the box of Pandora was opened, people would be asking for more, but too much basekit stuff will water down things too much and actually fight perk diversity, because peeps will get away with only playing their favorite perks, ie mostly meta perks, instead of running what their playstyle needs for then to thrive and survive.
The only perk that I would consider for basekit might be a mini BBP. In the past everyone ran BBQ for the bonus BP and many tried to hook every survivor at least once, but while doing that they also got shown some survivors aura and just by opportunity this drove killers off the hooks and back into the game. In essence BBQ was probably the most healthy perk in the game and by giving killers a BP bonus for hooking everyone once and showing at basekit the most far away survivors aura after hooking someone, we would be seeing way less camping.
0 -
There isn't a need to add a buff, jist because the other side did. As much as I was quite negative towards the mori rework, the one thing I wouldn't take away from BHVR was that the proposed changes were not a tit-for-tat thing, but to attempt to resolve 2 complained-about issues. This is not spoken as much as it should be, and I admit I'm also one to have overlooked that at times.
The killer got buffed a previous patch likewise to address issues regarding speeds of gens, with the changes to create a fairer playing field, and now survivors are being looked at for other issues that are often seen as issues.
These changes, whilst not always positive, are always done with the intent of improving gameplay and the bigger picture.
3 -
I would rather have killer powers buffed If they need them. If killers get buffed with basekit perks then every killer gets buffed and we don't need every killer buffed
0 -
Its not how it work. Its always 0.25 charge per sec. 80 or 90 charge doesnt change the speed.
You said like 90 charge makes regression slower, like it takes more times to run 90m than to run 80m...
Longer Gen is what killers always want. Regression speed should not be fast because its possible to have a Gen regressed from 90 to 0. Something like if you dont hit a survivor for too long they gain back a hook state.
Gen should have check point, at least 30sec & 60sec. Gen doesnt not regressed further than the check point. After that Gen regression speed can be x3 faster. They can easily lose 30sec, but not losing more.
4 -
Tbh, I never thought about something like this. Base regression is painfully slow, but if each piston locked into place once its fully repaired, regression speeds could be touched. I don't know if I would actually want that as a killer, as more then just a few games have been snatched out of the survivors hand by continuously regressing the same gen over and over, downing a survivor, hooking them on a painRes hook, coming back to the gen, rinse, repeat. A lot of this games would not have been manageable if the gen couldn't regress below a certain point, but maybe this is the kinda change, the breath of fresh air, that the game could need. Its definitely worth discussing and bringing to BHVRs attention.
0 -
Ruin has been neutered so hard that I legitly ignore it every time I notice it is in play. The lost seconds are so insignificant compared to searching for a totem and potentially risk a Pentimento that an active Ruin barely harms anyone anymore; with the exeption of possible the killer who brought the perk.
1 -
I’d love for the killers arguing for this in this thread to address the elephant in the room: the 60% kill rate at all MMR. No one has yet, and if you want to add basekit perks to killer you need to justify raising the kill rate even more.
Please enlighten me.
2 -
Im not argueing for it but isnt 60% basically the 2 kills per game the devs want?
1 -
Pretty much.
Even more, the temporarily disabled dc penalty and the huge amount of people that disconnected should give an estimate of how many people suicide regularly. Pushing the whole kill rate even further.
0 -
As I always say:
Grim Embrace Basekit.
Would function as a much needed gen regress, would function as an encouragement to not tunnel and the perk could be used to increase duration (like basekit bt with bt perk)
Easy to implement, good for everyone.
0 -
Perhaps basekit Deer Stalker? Able to see the aura of downed survivors within 12 meters?
0
