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Bubba out performs Billy and creates the same issue that got Billy nerfed for.
Now, this isn't to say Bubba is an op S++ killer or something stupid like that. But he is pretty strong. When I say he outperforms Billy, I mean he does nearly everything Billy does but better.
1: Chase pressure.
Bubba can eat pallets and come back for seconds like nobody else can. Billy also had this strength. In some regards he still does, but not much anymore. The issue is not only overheat, but his very precise collision. Bubba can just run enduring and spirit fury, practically negating every pallet in the map. You can rev before and they either throw it or they die. Simple.
Billy, on the other hand, can miss. Unless you're back revving the survivor, they can just turn a tight corner as you rush forward and you can't do anything about that. They can actually risk to bait the pallet throw. You could hold the chainsaw if you think they'll do this, but they can counter act this by just throwing the pallet and now you wasted even more time.
2: Add-ons. This is the main issue I have.
Bubba's add-ons are pretty damn good. You can get extra speed, extra duration or faster recharge. All of these are amazing in their own ways. Even better when paired together. Recharge, specifically, is what my issue is. How come Billy got nerfed because of being able to spam his chainsaw, but Bubba gets to do it in the exact same patch? Double recharge add-ons are nuts. You get all your charges back in literal seconds. But isn't this the issue Billy had? That he had no punishment for using his saw too often?
Yea, Bubba get's an overheat, but only if he holds his chainsaw for too long. You have to rev your chainsaw for a long time to get that to happen. So much that you will almost never have that happen on accident.
All of Billy's add-ons are gimmicks. None of them are really useful in much ways. The boots and overheat reduction are about as useful as they get.
Sure, you could do crack Billy, but now you're 110 and still don't have as fast of a charge before. Meaning that you get the extra movement speed while running, but the charge is basically the same as it is default. Or, you could go undetectable for 15 seconds after downing someone. Even though they know your exact location along with the chainsaw noise growing louder if you decide to slug. I could go on about the bad add-ons, but this is already getting long.
All of this on top of the punishment for using your chainsaw none the less.
3: Conclusion
So, Bubba can force survivors into spending all of their resources while also putting them in situations where they can't avoid him. i.e: Spirit Fury + Enduring practically making it to where if you stun him or pre drop you still make no distance. Recharge completely negating the mechanic of managing your charges. Being able to secure a kill to the point people will just leave you if they see him camping you. Good add-ons leading to multiple possibilities of lethal builds.
The one thing Bubba can't do better is zoom across the map at a million miles per hour. But at this point he should be able to since he's basically better Billy.
Isn't this why we nerfed Billy? Because he could camp efficiently, had nearly unlimited map control and mobility, along with lethal add-on combos that made him way better and amplified his chase pressure?
But, the one thing that makes Billy worse is that he has more counter-play options. And that's completely it. His base power design left multiple tactics open and tons of different ways for people to play against each other. While Bubba is like a pissed off train barreling at you.
This post isn't a call to nerf Bubba. It's to highlight the hypocrisy of the design philosophies behind this update. The truth is, if Billy were in his old state, he would dominate the other killers with mobility. There would be no reason to play the others. Blight, Sadako, Freddy, Dredge, none of them would be able to compete.
Blight may be able to, but he himself has a limit on his mobility and pressure. Still has a load of dumb add-ons though. So yet again, why did Billy get this treatment but not Blight?
The time and effort it takes to learn Billy and play him to his best potentially is a lot of dedication. And to some extent he can still perform well in this regard. But, why do that? Why take the time to get good at a killer who's been outclassed by nearly every other killer in his strengths?
tl;dr pls remove overheat :)
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At top level Bubba is below Billy and is infact in the bottom three killers in the game.
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How many people do you encounter that you would consider top level every match? Balancing shouldn't focus on the very top level because top level is just camping people into second stage and securing like 2 kills while all the gens pop. But yes, at his very very top level of play he can outperform Bubba. Doesn't mean that he still isn't hurt by the nerf or outdone in many ways his power functions now. Nor that he can consistently out-do these other killers.
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Did you really just say that Bubba is better than Billy?
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So we should nerf bubba? lol
I agree with the common consensus that we should limit his ability to camp people to death, but nerf anything else other than that? No, he's fine as is. Go for stuns, it's what I do. Buys a lot of time.
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The problem is not with the Bubba, he is already a balanced killer. But Billy is basically his harder and weaker version and thats the problem with Billy.
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Here's the proof that you are absolutely dead wrong:
If I play hard as killer I will get to a point where every game is people who play like robots and basically make closer to zero than one mistake per game. You cannot balance a game without looking at the top to limit some of the things the best players do that give tremendous advantage over the "middle of the pack".
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Billy got nerfed because of charge speed. As in, revving extremely fast: reducing 2.5 charge time to 1.8 seconds.
Bubba's rev time is 2 seconds base, lower because he needs to get a lot closer.
Billy's chainsaw can be used to break pallets, catch up, mobility, and down.
Bubba's is purely a chase tool. It can shred pallets and down but that's it, really.
You're trying to compare two killers whose powers are radically different except they use a chainsaw.
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My guy thinks two matches from ages ago seriously decides which killer is better than the other lmao
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his comment is kill-rates. its because of dev brain wash survivors and killer into thinking these kill-rates are accurate representations of the killer's power-level.
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I clarified multiple times that's not the point of this post. Please read it if u want to discuss things.
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Chase wise i think so. Pressure wise Billy is top tier and not even close
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Yet again, not the point. The point isn't about their base abilities. It's about how in the same patch they nerfed Billy for being able to do the many things Bubba can do now with no punishment. Chainsaw spam, camping, add-ons that make him not have to play by certain rules of his power or make him insanely lethal. It's dumb to nerf Billy so hard for such things but let Bubba do it during the SAME patch.
Along with Billy just having multiple counterplay options already built into his kit, while Bubba is basically don't let him get close enough to chainsaw. Bubba can wreak havoc easily with far less mechanical skill required. Even Blight is part of this problem. Basically being the new Billy. Blight can do even crazier flicks, is far less punishing for mistakes, and has much stronger add-ons that leaves really no reason to play Billy rather than liking the character.
Their powers in concept are nearly identical. Bubba is the opposite of Billy, trading speed and mobility for destructive power and able to devastate the team at any moment. But Billy doesn't really have anything else going for him, and as I said, he's outdone by basically every other killer with some type of mobility based power.
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Did you ever play when Billy had flick? If not it felt gross - as a matter of fact I never used it when I could because it didn't feel right.
In case you do not know : Billy's power has been continually adjusted over the years to be worse by a measure of a few steps each patch. They capped his turn rate so you need the boot addons. They made bumping anything more punishing. They increased the delay after using the saw to sprint and when you could use the hammer. The mere existence of indoor maps is a nerf to 2016-2018 Billy who at the time could zoom from point A to point B on almost any map with nearly no obstruction.
And we have yet to mention the overheat situation and the loss of every meaningful addon.
Unless I missed it : also we have not mentioned that Hook posts are non collision for Leatherface in his saw attack mode. Do you know how dumb that is? I don't know if is still a thing but for a while Billy was stopped from sprinting if his saw hit a hook while it was raised in a sprint. Meanwhile Leatherface cannot hit a hook post. Leatherface would be terrible at camping if he was in danger of his saw hitting the post and sending him into a tantrum - but that's not a thing.
Friendo, watch the video and look how LF has antiloop with those addons - something Billy used to have if you were very skilled (but was taken away unless you use addons).
"-Their powers in concept are nearly identical. Bubba is the opposite of Billy, trading speed and mobility for destructive power and able to devastate the team at any moment. But Billy doesn't really have anything else going for him, and as I said, he's outdone by basically every other killer with some type of mobility based power."
While I largely agree with what you have to say this is actually not correct. Billy is the fastest killer in a straight line over long distances with no obstructions or ones that can be avoided. Blight has to bounce and his power runs out unless he has a survivor to chain his power activation. When hug tech is removed Blight will also be "slower".
Technically Ring can move faster than Billy in terms of map movement but teleporting long distances is a different idea.
Billy used to be an S tier killer and I feel someone from marketing said hey wait a minute, why would anyone buy Hag when Billy exists? It might seem strange to think but long ago he and Nurse were the S tier killers.
-"Bubba's is purely a chase tool. It can shred pallets and down but that's it, really."
I suggest you watch the video I posted above as well. With the right addons LF has antiloop with his saw. And when you bring Bamboozle it forces a pallet or you go down.
And while the best addons give LF limited mobility he will never move like Blight or Nurse. No one is suggesting otherwise. People like me who used to play Billy all the time realize that Billy is just "meh" by comparison to what he was before. Now he has no strong addons, can be easily looped and his power is rendered almost useless by many maps.
You can be a mediocre looper and give a good Billy a 2 gen run depending on map and killer's loadout. Try the same thing against a just average Pyramid Head and you last half a generator. Killers that have anti loop are just "better" than killers that have mobility and no antiloop.
Also just to be clear : Billy got nerfed according to the devs because low/mid tier players were fanning the chainsaw 99% ready to strike to make rescues impossible. And yet at the same time no adjustment was made to LF who can do the same thing but better as he can hit you twice and render a perk like BT worthless.
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No he is not dude... Even then he is still above Billy is way harder to pull off and mistakes get punished even top players make mistakes... When Otzdarva made the showcase match between a great billy and a great bubba it became very clear how easiert much more straight forward bubba is without being weaker... (Video got linked before already)
Also bottom 3? Are you joking... He is an insta down killer that just melts pallets... Which 2 killers do you think are below him in that scenario? I mean sure he is not S and probably not even A tier... But is somewhere on the better half in B tier probably...
It is not about the match itself... It is more about what you can do with the killer that is shown in the video... And while Billy has to to outplay you while the player basically always can do something against a curve (e.g. going wide or looping tight) Bubba can just follow you and not have to deal with that problem while he can cover a large distance with his addons... Also ages ago? It was like one year and basically nothing changed with those two killers... So what does it even matter that it wasn't yesterday?
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Billy can gain distance much better, and can also curve around objects. Also, Billys saw is better for baiting out pallets. (Faking the rev)
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Bubba does not really need to bait the pallet... Because either people drop it or you just down them before they reach it again if you're playing it correctly... Sure Billy has map mobility but his curving cannot be used at all tiles while bubba just moves around with increased movementspeed in basically every loop...
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Freddy, sadako
Freddy because his addons are terrible and he's a worse clown and dredge
Sadako because her basekit is terrible but has some useful addons to make up for it (ring drawing, iri tape)
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How is Bubba supposed to be worse than trapper dude XD You cannot be serious :D:D
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Have you ever run double Chillis? There are quite a few maps where these addons leave Bubba with better mobility than Billy. Also Bubba's animations are way shorter than Billy's, meaning you break pallets and catch up quicker. Both should be extremely oppressive in chase. One is, the other is Billy.
These 2 killers aren't as different as you make it out to be. They have very similar strengths and weaknesses for the most part. The difference is that Bubba excells in chase while Billy has more map pressure (as long as you're not on Lerys, GoJ, Eyrie, Midwich or The Game)
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I appreciate the way you've laid out a nuance take on everything. You seem to have been around for a long time. I just wanted to say, yes, Billy is better in a straight line with speed but that's only techincally. While he has a faster base travel time, he can get screwed on many maps. His power can't adapt to these sorts of things. A Billy on lerys is just essentially an m1 killer who can maybe instadown if people play really badly.
Blight's mobility is extremely versatile and easy to use. You get a 1.5 second recovery from using it I believe. There are some small variants like using the swing to end the rush, adding a small amount of time to it. Still, Blight receives almost no downside for using his power and gets tons of reward for it.
There will be occasions where you barely miss the distance to bump, but so many maps have things to collide with that it's not super hard to do so. The only harsh part about his mobility would be sliding off of objects, but in a way that's an advantage too as I'm sure all of us are aware.
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-"Blight receives almost no downside for using his power and gets tons of reward for it."
You are absolutely correct. I do not want to paint the picture that Billy is good but I do not want to short the one thing he does better than anyone else. If you go back in time to a 2016-2018 build you can actually make incredible saw sprints where you end up with 2000-3000 points from a saw sprint or more. That was a very scary time to play survivor when Billys like me could traverse the map multiple times and check all the generators without ever getting out of a sprint.
To be blunt Blight moves too fast and has his power back too quickly. Compare him to legion for example : ok Legion uses his power and gets the first hit pretty much automatically. Blight gets both hits pretty much automatically. And then he hooks the survivor and then travels at warp speed to the far corner of the map. That is wrong.
This sets up a problem where this killer works great and everyone lower in power quite frankly just sucks. Do you want to spend an extra 20 seconds every time to you want to start a chase? If not then pick blight.
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The comparison of legion and blight lacks... Besides Stunning him which you basically shouldn't do there is not much you can do to prevent legion hitting you... Blight on the other hand has to work with flicks and bump logic to get his hits... Basekit Blight is probably one of the fairest killers in the game...
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I think you might need to re read my response. Legion gets the first hit automatically and then what? Blight gets both hits quite often nearly automatically. This happens because of hug tech. Blight was very easy to play against before Hug Tech was discovered. On release he was very fun to play against because it was a very easy win against almost every Blight you went against.
Blight requires the killer to know how the survivor wants to run the loop optimally. This takes time but becomes "automatic" once you play killer for a while. As a survivor you need to know how the blight wants to run the tile knowing how he thinks you want to run the tile. And then to make the game difficult you need to run the tile in a different way than he expects. In order to do that you need to either understand blight very well or have a completely thorough understanding of survivor mechanics.
Most people lack one or both levels of understanding and just go down quickly against Blight.
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But that seems kind of fair to me dude... What you're basically saying is because people don't understand what they're supposed to do they just go down in no time because the blight knows what to do... Therefore I don't really get what the issue is... Generally speaking when a survivor does not know what he is doing he will go down quickly, even against an m1 killer... And considering Legion... With some addons you're able chain 4 hits and get a down rather easily... Did it a few weeks back and it basically worked every game because once again... People usually don't really know what the optimal thing to do is and therefore go down...
And to say a killer is fun to go against because he is easy to win against is really a meaningless thing to say... The fun part about the game is the chase interaction in the sense of knowing what the other one is able to and react appropriately to what you either see him doing or assume he is going to do... So still basekit blight is one of the most balanced killers in the entire game when it comes to that... There is almost always something you could have done better against blight...
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And also this thread is supposed to be about Billy and Bubba and not Blight or other stuff, so we should keep it on the topic..
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Discussing killers and their powers is on topic. If we were talking about cars or boats or what the killers looked like in bathing suits then we would be off topic.
-"What you're basically saying is because people don't understand what they're supposed to do they just go down in no time because the blight knows what to do... Therefore I don't really get what the issue is"
This is entirely why Nurse is strong. Most people don't play nurse and they try to run her as if she were another killer that played by the limits of walls and pallets. They dont know the limits of her power so they just get caught like a deer in headlights.
But when you compare Billy and LF as they are now you will see a huge reversal in how lethal they are compared to how they used to be.
Billy has no antiloop and LF has antiloop when you use his best addons. If we go back and look at "instant saw" Billy it makes a lot of sense compared to what LF has right now. At the time LF was a terrible mess. Now Billy is a terrible mess. It's almost like Billy is free and is therefore garbage and LF is the "pay to win" model. The funny thing here is that DLC characters especially licensed ones were originally advertised as "pay to lose".
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Billy has some antiloop, but i can be used on less tiles than bubbas and is way harder to pull off...
But what was the whole point of the argument with legion compared to blight then? I mean when you admit people die against killers that know what they're doing, while the survivors themselves have no idea what to do against the killer... What is this comparisson supposed to mean then?
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Billy has antiloop if you are very good around say a car. Most tiles he has nothing. He is forced to use Bamboozle to have a chance to get a hit.
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You can use it at long walls, or the TL wall, some longer pallet loops and some more... And of course if you know how to curve yes... Otherwise Billy is backrev only... I don't think you necessarily need bamboozle, but it helps... The really good Billys don't run bamboozle all the time so i guess...
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