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So when is Dead Hard getting PROPERLY nerfed?
Before so-called "REWORK":
- 3 Health States
- Acts as a 2nd chance perk
- Can be used both by noobs and pros alike
- Destroys M1 killers, is ok/good against most other killers
- Creates Uncounterable Situations
- Overwhelmingly meta
After so-called "REWORK":
- 3 Health States (with added sprint burst BENEFIT)
- Acts as a 2nd chance perk
- Can be used both by noobs and pros alike (confirmed by pick rate)
- Destroys M1 killers, is ok/good against most other killers (arguably even better)
- Creates Uncounterable Situations because the reaction is on the survivor's side and the killer's counterplay is "I hope the survivor is bad haha"
- Overwhelmingly meta
DH was strong for 5 years, then for the first time in 5 years it's getting reworked/nerfed and not only:
1 It's still overwhelmingly meta (I tracked my killer games, DH is the most used perk + dev stats suggest the same story)
2 It's still arguably as strong, if not stronger than the old DH
How does a perk stay very strong for 5 years, gets apparently reworked, and is still as strong as before? How is it even possible LOL? Meanwhile, DS gets hardcore nerfed, but DH stays the same both in effectiveness and pick rate. The objective to rework DH has failed in every metric possible.
And no, the new DH doesn't require "more skill". If it required a significant amount of more skill, then its pick rate wouldn't be as high. Noobs would stop using it as it would be a waste of perk slot, and pick other exhaustion perks.
DH should straight up be removed from the game if the game developers can't figure out how to properly rework a perk. It's honestly laughable at this point.
Comments
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Dead Hard is so much weaker than it was before and its pickrate has gone down significantly. Your rundown of the before and after there misses the most important part of old DH- the distance. The distance is what made old DH so uncounterable on top of also being really good at dodging a hit. Now, not only can you not use it for distance at all, but using it to dodge a hit also has a downside in the form of Deep Wounds.
It's also significantly weaker against M1 killers than it used to be even for dodging a hit, because "bait it out" actually works now. It's killers that have windows to hit - like Nurse, for example - that DH is now most useful against, which isn't a bad spot to be in for a perk.
So, I don't see how the objective to rework Dead Hard has failed, personally. It's weaker than it was before, it has counterplay and is no longer free value, and its pickrate went down significantly. Those are all successes. Obviously it's still a good perk, probably in the top three Exhaustion perks still, but changing that wasn't ever the goal and shouldn't be expected.
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Whenever 6.1 came out. That's the date it was properly nerfed and brought into line with other exhaustion perks.
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DH is fine the way it is imo.
Most of the time if someone pulls of DH, I compliment them for being able to nail the timing. Considering how DH does not instantly give you the Endurance effect and the duration of Endurance is short enough to wait out in most instances.
From my own experience, half the time I go down with DH is because I either DH too early and get hit before the Endurance, or because I did not use it right; and even in the hands of good players, DH does have limited application.
There are some situations where they DH at a pallet and they pull of DH, but even then, I do not feel as bad dealing with it since they have to spend 14 seconds mending and another 16 seconds to heal (total of 30 seconds not on a generator, which is not too bad). Mending helps balance it out a bit so it does not feel too rewarding from the survivor's end of things, it makes getting DH'ed by a survivor feel less like a kick in a gonads compared to old DH.
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How can you say it's weaker when properly used it's even stronger than before.
Before:
You gain distance
Now:
You gain a sprint burst
So if dead hard gets triggered then it's ALWAYS stronger than old dead hard in value. So the question is - does it get triggered enough?
Let's see:
Before - Baiting out at pallet:
Does not work if the survivor is good (uncounterable)
After - Baiting out at pallet:
Does not work if the survivor is good (uncounterable)
Before - Baiting everywhere else:
It's easy (irrelevant point)
After - Baiting out everywhere else:
It's easy (irrelevant point)
The only argument you could make that DH is weaker is cause you can't use it on windows properly, but that gets offset by benefits in other areas.
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The pick rate massively suggests otherwise, friend. It's much more used than other exhaustion perks.
So what's the next angle? Why is the community using this perk overwhelmingly even though all other exhaustion perks are just as good now?
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My only real issue with Dead Hard right now is that reaction dodging is pretty braindead easy and way too strong right now against specific killer powers. Things like Huntress hatchets and Wesker dashes that frequently create situations where you need to commit to a power usage because if you hesitate or wait, your window of opportunity is lost. In situations like these where the option of baiting, zoning, faking, etc. is not feasible and you must commit or else let the chase be extended, Dead Hard allows survivors to just wait for the killer to use their power and then press E accordingly. You could do this before, but imo it’s much stronger now because of the on-hit burst. Something needs to be done about that. Other than that I would adjust it so there’s a brief like half-second period after using it where you can’t throw pallets to eliminate situations where you just E underneath a pallet and create situations where the killer either hits you and gives you a third health state or waits and then gets a pallet thrown on them as soon as you’re done with the Dead Hard animation.
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Let's take a look at those examples!
For the first one, you're missing something pretty obvious: you get a speed boost if you time it right, and after you get that speed boost, you have to mend. No matter what way you slice it, that is weaker than instant free value with no downside other than Exhaustion.
For the second, I would say that at a pallet is definitely a strong place to use Dead Hard, but you're missing that the value it gives is saving a pallet- you can only use it that way if you can also get a pallet stun, so it's less dodging a hit and more saving the pallet for later, at the cost of Deep Wound.
For the third, this is blatantly wrong. How the hell could you bait out someone using Dead Hard to make distance to a pallet/window they wouldn't otherwise reach? That was the entire problem with Dead Hard and by far the most common use for it, and that is now completely impossible. You cannot use it to reach tiles that were otherwise out of reach, which was absurdly strong, and thus the perk is now considerably weaker.
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What is your source for the stats? The last ones I saw DH had a high pick rate but still at roughly the 25% pick mark instead of the 70 to 75% it was prior to 6.1. It is a strong perk still but it takes skill to use. The Endurance part can make somebody feel like they were denied a hit but, with Sprint Burst, BL, and/or Lithe, the Killer wouldn't have gotten the hit to begin with.
At the pick rates I saw and my experience with it I interpreted it as a perk that's strong but not OP. Have the pick rates changed substantially? If not, we may just have a difference of opinion on what constitutes substantial usage.
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Yh dead hard is pretty hard to get right, the timing is very unforgiving and a killer with any skill can simply bait it out as soon as they realise a player is using it. I do it all the time.
It certainly isn't an automatic 3rd health state unless it's being used by a hacker.
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For the first one, you're missing something pretty obvious: you get a speed boost if you time it right, and after you get that speed boost, you have to mend. No matter what way you slice it, that is weaker than instant free value with no downside other than Exhaustion.
You can shift W after you dead hard with sprint burst which inherently wastes 10+ sec more at least. Additionally, if you pull new dead hard everywhere else but pallet, you get massively more value compared to dead hard. Old DH baiting M1 would literally buy you max 2 seconds more, new DH gets you at least 10+ sec + ability to get to a pallet.
Mending is irrelevant, especially when mended by another person. Going down/staying in the same loop/dead zone is significantly worse than having to mend. Literally, no one makes the same argument about base kit BT mend time, everyone knows it's worth it lol.
For the second, I would say that at a pallet is definitely a strong place to use Dead Hard, but you're missing that the value it gives is saving a pallet- you can only use it that way if you can also get a pallet stun, so it's less dodging a hit and more saving the pallet for later, at the cost of Deep Wound.
Yes, it gives a saved pallet + sprint burst. It's massively stronger than the old DH and doesn't require much skill to use it like this. I also don't know what's your argument here. Are you agreeing with me and adding more to my points that it's overwhelmingly strong there? Thanks, I guess.
For the third, this is blatantly wrong. How the hell could you bait out someone using Dead Hard to make distance to a pallet/window they wouldn't otherwise reach? That was the entire problem with Dead Hard and by far the most common use for it, and that is now completely impossible. You cannot use it to reach tiles that were otherwise out of reach, which was absurdly strong, and thus the perk is now considerably weaker.
Yes, the distance uncounterable factor is gone. But the new uncounterable mechanic has been replaced by using DH at a pallet. We shuffled parts there and here, and in the end, the perk is not much different. Same, but different, i.e. rework failure. Effectively it's a third health state with an uncounterable mechanic which is what old DH always was.
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Except it is counterable. That's the entire reason you're wrong about it being a failure, in all scenarios except for over-committing at a pallet, you can counter Dead Hard by baiting it out. And in the scenarios where they're at a pallet... they aren't always at a pallet, they don't teleport there when you start a chase. You can get a hit in those scenarios, it's not an automatic thing where they're going to get value from Dead Hard in every single chase.
Even your own arguments are backing this up, frankly. Even if we were to assume that DH at a pallet should be considered genuinely uncounterable, that's still massively less powerful than old Dead Hard which allowed you to get to a pallet that you otherwise would've been hit before you reached. For new Dead Hard, the survivor always has the option not to get hit because they can only use it the way you're describing in the same situations they could drop a pallet for a stun. You're basically arguing that a slightly better Smash Hit that also gives you Deep Wound is uncounterable, lol.
That's not even getting into all of the small killer-specific things DH used to do, even.
There's no way around it. This version of the perk is weaker, and picked massively less often.
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Google "6.10 in review dbd". It was 2nd most used perk after it was declared "dead". Fair to assume the numbers have climbed even higher since then - I wouldn't be surprised if it's the #1 used perk now.
I also tracked my games, and it's the most used perk on the survivor side.
"Skill to use" doesn't correlate with the pick rate. If the pick rate is high, then it likely doesn't require ENOUGH skill usage. Especially when it's top pick rate perk. I guess the majority of the community is just super skilful, or maybe the perk doesn't require that much skill to use hmm.
And I can't believe I have to say this:
A perk goes meta for 5 years, it's still one of the most (if not the most) picked perks in the game after rework. And this is acceptable? This perk needs to be butchered considering how overwhelmingly strong it was for so long.
If all other exhaustion perks are easier to use objectively, then why is the community picking hard-to-use perk which requires a lot of skill when alternatives are just as good, and even easier to use? That's because they constantly get value out of it, even the noobs.
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Dead Hard also gives:
3 stack of STBFL
lose 4 stack of STBFL.
other wise, it's fine where it is honestly as it dosen't bother me much. but htat just my opinion.
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Dead Hard used to have a 40%+ pick rate. Now its pick rate is 25-30%, it's gone down by 1/3. Yes it's still the most popular perk but the gap between it and other perks narrowed.
And while the new Dead Hard is obviously quite good, it is weaker in some respects. Not just because it's harder to use to lunge for distance to reach a vault or pallet, but also because the new version of Dead Hard doesn't work against killer effects which aren't attacks (e.g. Trapper's Traps, Deathslinger's spear, Doctor's shocks, getting through body blocks, etc) and also doesn't work if you're already in Deep Wounds (the old one had no such restriction, so for instance if Legion put you in Deep Wounds and dropped out of Feral Frenzy to keep chasing you then your old Dead Hard could still work but the new one can't.)
So yes, Dead Hard is still very popular. But it's also simultaneously used less than before and on the whole is probably slightly weaker than before.
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Except it is counterable. That's the entire reason you're wrong about it being a failure, in all scenarios except for over-committing at a pallet, you can counter Dead Hard by baiting it out. And in the scenarios where they're at a pallet... they aren't always at a pallet, they don't teleport there when you start a chase. You can get a hit in those scenarios, it's not an automatic thing where they're going to get value from Dead Hard in every single chase.
You underestimate how much "DH at pallet" scenario happens. It happens way more than you think and is not a niche use case anymore. The only relevant scenarios where we need to discuss DH are:
1 At a pallet (DH is stronger than before by all means)
2 When near windows (DH is weaker than before)
3 When countering by timing a near guaranteed upcoming hit from the killer - ex Nurse, Blight, Bubba, etc. (DH is stronger than before)
4 When predicting non-telegraphed attacks (DH is stronger than before)
Even your own arguments are backing this up, frankly. Even if we were to assume that DH at a pallet should be considered genuinely uncounterable, that's still massively less powerful than old Dead Hard which allowed you to get to a pallet that you otherwise would've been hit before you reached. For new Dead Hard, the survivor always has the option not to get hit because they can only use it the way you're describing in the same situations they could drop a pallet for a stun. You're basically arguing that a slightly better Smash Hit that also gives you Deep Wound is uncounterable, lol.
Do the maths and figure it out yourself. The invulnerability period is more or less the same with both old DH and new DH. Killers cannot swing because of that invulnerability period which either leads to a pallet drop/stun or a triggered DH. There is no "waiting it out" during this as you are forced into a lose-lose situation. You can use that invulnerability period just as well as you used the "gain distance" period, maybe there is 10-20 % off, but that difference is negligible from my experience.
There's no way around it. This version of the perk is weaker, and picked massively less often.
I like how we have overwhelmingly strong meta perk for 5 years, and it's still likely the most used survivor perk after so-called "REWORK" and this is apparently fine. Meanwhile, sh*t like Ruin gets nerfed to ground with the definition of a dead perk after it's been meta in the same way as DH.
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Why do you ignore the new strengths new dead hard gives while focusing only on negatives compared to old DH? It's so disingenuous.
It's as if everyone forgot that it gives a sprint burst and a saved pallet lmao. And that works even better compared to old dead hard when baiting M1s, not just pallet scenarios.
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Dead Hard is currently fine. A good killer shouldn't fall for it more than once (or at all, if they wait it out the first time or always expect it). Old Dead Hard gave GUARANTEED value, unconditionally of the killer swinging at it or not. Not only did it let you iframe through things, it also gave you a guaranteed amount of distance that the killer simply could not play around. Current Dead Hard requires prediction on the part of the survivor (it's very very hard to use on reaction, even to a lunge, considering things like reaction time and ping exist). A perk's pick rate isn't directly correlated to the amount of value that the survivor gets from it, so saying it's still used a lot isn't really a proper argument.
The only real problematic way to use Dead Hard is using it into a pallet and having a guaranteed drop, which can't really be countered by a killer, and survivors won't do too often unless they expect you to wait for it. Even at higher levels, good players are relatively predictable when it comes to when they will use it. Injured and running into a window from an unsafe distance? They'll DH. Injured and running through a pallet from just the right distance that they think the killer will swing? They'll DH. Injured and about to take a health state from a predictable killer power (Huntress, Trickster, Pyramid Head etc.), they'll DH. It's just extra steps to secure a down without having to extend a chase, but the value is nowhere near guaranteed. A killer has to mess up in order for a survivor to get value out of DH, that's how that works.
I feel your pain though. It's mentally exhausting to go up against a 4x DH 4x Adrenaline sweaty swf, but the perk is completely fine in its current state.
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...Why can't you swing during the invulnerability period? Of course you can swing, you just have to understand and react to what happens next. From the killer's perspective, dropping chase is always a viable decision if you don't think you can secure a down, so dropping chase and getting a short Mend period out of the survivor is actually better for you than the survivor simply getting to run away.
(Also, brief side note, Bubba does not give a solitary damn about Dead Hard nor any other form of Endurance, nor does Blight or Nurse, but I will grant you some killers will be forced to hit it more often. Most of them have powers that let them get a follow up hit pretty easily, but still.)
As for your final point, you're being misleading. Yes, it's the most used survivor perk, but it went from a 70% pickrate in high MMR lobbies to a 20% one. That is a giant drop and an absolute success. The killer perks look similar, if I recall correctly- because it doesn't matter what the most popular perk is if it's only the most picked by a small margin. It matters when perks absolutely dominate with huge differences in the pickrate between them and their closest competitors, which was the case with Dead Hard.
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A perk's pick rate isn't directly correlated to the amount of value that the survivor gets from it, so saying it's still used a lot isn't really a proper argument.
So why does everyone pick it still? I really don't get this argument. We've had 3 months since 6.10, and it's still used overwhelmingly everywhere. Do you think survivors pick DH, don't get value out of it and then just keep using it lol? Especially, when there is a perk like Sprint Burst which literally any noob player can use to a decent effect. Massive mental gymnastics in my honest opinion.
A killer has to mess up in order for a survivor to get value out of DH, that's how that works.
Simply untrue when it's used as a pallet. There is no counterplay bar for a few killers. The mess-up is on SURVIVOR'S SIDE, not the killers'. If the killer gets baited by it inin the open by a dead hard or on a predictable hit (ex: Nurse, Huntress) then the mistake is on the KILLER'S SIDE.
I feel your pain though. It's mentally exhausting to go up against a 4x DH 4x Adrenaline sweaty swf, but the perk is completely fine in its current state.
Yes, I hate going against this perk on how it conditions the killer to constantly have to wait 2-4 seconds to check if a perk is used (with the addition of an uncounterable mechanic it has). It would be fine if the perk wasn't so dominant in the meta, but more and more lobbies are popping up with 3-4 dead hards. In so many ways new DH is the same as the old DH that honestly it makes me nauseous. Nothing has changed, even after 5 years.
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I'm not the one being disingenuous, you're the one ignoring the various downsides of the new version of the perk and focusing solely on the one aspect that is sometimes better.
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...Why can't you swing during the invulnerability period? Of course you can swing, you just have to understand and react to what happens next. From the killer's perspective, dropping chase is always a viable decision if you don't think you can secure a down, so dropping chase and getting a short Mend period out of the survivor is actually better for you than the survivor simply getting to run away.
Are you really saying that getting a deep wound + dropping a chase + not getting a pallet drop is somehow a good scenario for a killer? You really should stop with "deep wound value" stuff, Legion has that base kit and he's still one of the worst killers in the game. It doesn't do much to prolong the game, downs are everything.
(Also, brief side note, Bubba does not give a solitary damn about Dead Hard nor any other form of Endurance, nor does Blight or Nurse, but I will grant you some killers will be forced to hit it more often. Most of them have powers that let them get a follow up hit pretty easily, but still.)
Yes, they do. Any extra chase time against strong killers is valuable. It's true that they don't suffer as much as M1 killers from Dead Hard, but it still gives a second chance to get to a pallet or get to a different place. In a way, it's like the new DS, which can win you games at times, and can give you nothing. I think DS is a perfectly balanced perk now - it's what DH should've been
As for your final point, you're being misleading. Yes, it's the most used survivor perk, but it went from a 70% pickrate in high MMR lobbies to a 20% one. That is a giant drop and an absolute success. The killer perks look similar, if I recall correctly- because it doesn't matter what the most popular perk is if it's only the most picked by a small margin. It matters when perks absolutely dominate with huge differences in the pickrate between them and their closest competitors, which was the case with Dead Hard.
"A top survivor perk is still the top survivor perk even after rework". When DH has a similar pick rate as other exhaustion perks (+- 3-5 %), then we can talk that it's in line with other exhaustion perks. A perk which has been meta for 5+ years should not be compared to its absolute pick rate, but relative to other perks, and it's still predominantly meta (likely the most used perk).
DH rework would've been a success if:
1 At most it's the top 5 used perks, not the top 2, or even top 1
2 Its pick rate is very close to other exhaustion perks
Neither was achieved.
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I just want to point out that Pop went from always shaving 20 seconds off a generator to mostly shaving 4-8 seconds off a generator.
Dead Hard still makes chases far too long far too often. The window to trigger it is smaller and it takes more skill to use but it literally has the same effect it did before. This is not fair considering killers lost so much strength in their gen defense perks.
The devs perk use chart showed DH had a 75% usage rate by volume. After the patch it went down in use because it was made harder to use. But it still gives you an extra health state and literally does almost exactly what it did before.
Let's take a look at what happened to Pop. Pop was sitting around 26% usage before the patch because it was the perk carrying killer. Pop is now almost completely dead with a 6% use rate. The effect is so minimal that it only works when combined with multiple other gen regression perks.
Given the choice : I want to remove the 5% always kick rate and have old Pop back. Current Pop might make sense if the base kick were 10% so that most of the time you are kicking a generator for 15% progress loss.
Source for data : (https://nightlight.gg/perks/Pop_Goes_the_Weasel)
The reality is that Dead Hard was made harder to use but it still does almost everything it did before as you can no longer use it to create distance to get to a pallet.
Suggestion : make the game remember that you have a deep wound from Dead Hard when you go down. Get unhooked? Start with a deep wound if you had one from dead hard. That would make it so you can't dead hard again until you mend. You won't have your 3rd health state Over and over and over again unless the killer leaves you alone.
This would put the perk in the "trash" category that Pop is in now. That would mean that against a tunneling killer you would get to one extra health state and then be in deep wound every time you get off the hook. So you could only use it more than once per game against a killer that does not tunnel.
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I didn't ignore them, I mentioned multiple times that the new DH is very much weaker than the old DH when using the "use DH to get to window scenario". In all other scenarios, it is stronger, the downsides are offset by upsides easily assuming survivors can actually abuse this perk (which a lot of them can do now)
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Except it's not "better in every scenario", that's objective wrong. You can't Dead Hard Deathslinger's spear. If you're under Deep Wounds it doesn't work. You can't Dead Hard over Traps. You can't Dead Hard through a body block.
It's better in SOME scenarios, not EVERY scenario.
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Man, you're really acting like swinging into a Dead Hard at a pallet is like, the end of the game and you've already lost. There are so many scenarios that's happened to me and I still get the down like ten seconds later because there's nothing for the survivor to run to, or where I just drop the chase and go down someone else. Seriously, it's not the same every time and it's not an automatic chase ender, it gives some value to survivors but it's far from overpowered.
As for the killers mentioned, no, they don't. Bubba chainsaws through Endurance all the time, it's why he doesn't care about Borrowed Time when basement camping, and Nurse and Blight recharge fast enough that they do not care about having to hit three times instead of two. The benefit of those chase extensions is miniscule, especially against Nurse. Add onto that killers that get to completely ignore Dead Hard like Legion, Deathslinger, and to a lesser extent killers like Trapper or anyone with an instadown, and its usefulness continues to drop compared to its old state.
As for your last points, insisting it be in the top five instead of where it is just seems arbitrary to me. Since it's the difference between it and the next few in line that matters, I don't see how that'd fix anything. As for it being picked as often as the other Exhaustion perks, in theory I agree, but not all the Exhaustion perks are actually equal. There's no universe where, even with DH completely removed from the game, people gravitate to Smash Hit or Head On to replace it, the Exhaustion perks need to be closer to one another before they can be used as a metric for comparing Dead Hard to.
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We're talking about averages here. Sure you can't dead hard over a trapper's traps anymore and neither you can against deathslinger (idk why you use those arguments considering no one plays them and you can beat them easily without DH, but w/e)
But if you bait an attack over a lot of other killers, ex: huntress hatchet, nurse blink, wesker dash, yada yada the list goes very long here - you literally gain more value than using old DH. So in baiting an M1 attack - yes it's overwhelmingly better than old DH on average.
This leaves us to the pallet scenario - I've already told this in my other replies, but you get X amount of invulnerability when using the new DH (similar to the old DH). If survivors master that timing, they get more value compared to the old DH because they get a sprint burst and a saved pallet.
Does it take more skill to master that timing? Yes
Does it take sufficiently more skill so we can say that perk is balanced? Absolutely no
For DH to be properly balanced, the uncounterable pallet invulnerability scenario where the killer has to rely on the survivor messing up needs to BE GONE.
Every other part of DH is fine, if I got baited by DH when I could've just waited a bit - perfectly fine IMO, well played to the survivor. But the pallet invulnerability lose-lose scenario needs to disappear asap.
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To clarify, I’m not saying Dead Hard isn’t still a problem, it probably is. I’m saying that it’s not as much of a problem as it was. It’s pick rate is still high but also down and a bunch of the scenarios where it used to work it doesn’t now. (And as far as I know it still has the annoying thing of cheaters being able to auto-trigger it which probably also boosts its usage a bit.)
Personally I wouldn’t be against shortening the duration of the sprint burst it gives when it absorbs a hit. Removing that altogether might be overkill but making it give a little less distance could be ok.
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Man, you're really acting like swinging into a Dead Hard at a pallet is like, the end of the game and you've already lost. There are so many scenarios that's happened to me and I still get the down like ten seconds later because there's nothing for the survivor to run to, or where I just drop the chase and go down someone else. Seriously, it's not the same every time and it's not an automatic chase ender, it gives some value to survivors but it's far from overpowered.
Glad you can catch survivors after they use Dead Hard in 10 seconds now. Judging by this, that means that with old Dead hard you probably caught them in like 2-4 seconds tops. Old DH wasn't a problem at all, literally a 2-4 seconds chase extender, LOL!
As for your last points, insisting it be in the top five instead of where it is just seems arbitrary to me. Since it's the difference between it and the next few in line that matters, I don't see how that'd fix anything. As for it being picked as often as the other Exhaustion perks, in theory I agree, but not all the Exhaustion perks are actually equal. There's no universe where, even with DH completely removed from the game, people gravitate to Smash Hit or Head On to replace it, the Exhaustion perks need to be closer to one another before they can be used as a metric for comparing Dead Hard to.
If one exhaustion perk is still very much picked over exhaustion perks (for how many years now?), then yeah - it should be nerfed even more, especially when they rely on the same exhaustion mechanic. I don't think other exhaustion perks are bad, all of them are good and perfectly balanced - so why does DH still get very much preferred over all other exhaustion perks? I guess the community just has a fetish for Dead Hard - that's why it never cant gravitate towards the same pick rate.
Or MAYBE, going back to my decisive strike example... Decisive Strike is still a decent perk after the nerf but its pick rate probably plunged probably by 80 % and no one considers it meta anymore. It can still win you games and is a good perk, but it requires more thinking and pre-planning. They literally made Decisive Strike actually require some brain usage and not just "HOLD W for the next 10-20 seconds". This is a perk that actually requires significantly more skill compared to its older self, and we can see how quickly it has fallen out of the meta (even though it's still picked by skilful players from my experience). DH should've been the same, but arguably "it requires more skill to use now", so much more skill that it's still the most picked survivor perk.
If the argument against DS is that "it does nothing", then I can also see easily DH also "doing nothing" when they go down after the killer waits for it. Or MAYBE, just MAYBE, it does much more... The parallels with DS are undeniable, yet it's clear that something is still really wrong with DH as DS is out of the meta, and DH still is. Or should I say, DS is still meta at the top level, but DH is meta mostly everywhere.
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To clarify, I’m not saying Dead Hard isn’t still a problem, it probably is. I’m saying that it’s not as much of a problem as it was.
For a perk that has been unchanged for 5 years, and was picked 70-80 % - the standards for nerfing it is REALLY REALLY low. Ruin literally gets butchered completely into a dead perk and no one bats an eye. DH should be at a MINIMUM similar pick rate as all other exhaustion perks. Reworking this perk completely into a different thing is also fine considering latency issues, and the general unfun nature of this old and new perk when used at pallets/windows.
Personally I wouldn’t be against shortening the duration of the sprint burst it gives when it absorbs a hit. Removing that altogether might be overkill but making it give a little less distance could be ok.
There is a lot of skill in baiting an M1 attack where both sides have the ability to react - and the sprint burst that you gain after successful bait should stay the same. It simply needs the pallet invulnerability mechanic to be removed - where a reaction is on the survivor's side and not on the killer's. If they remove this mechanic, DH is a good perk (although still annoying in some cases, but I'll take that over "eat pallet or eat dead hard")
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...No, because old Dead Hard was used for distance, which is uncounterable and resets the chase because they make it to a new tile that they then start looping. That doesn't mean that it could be used literally anywhere on the map, but it could be used as a free chase extension with zero downsides or counters, that always gives value and required absolutely no thought or skill beyond making sure you're running towards a tile when using it.
New Dead Hard, by contrast, does let someone avoid dropping the pallet (not avoid going down, as we're discussing its use at a pallet), at the cost of Deep Wound, no stun for the killer, and potentially having absolutely nowhere for their speed boost to take them. It's a gamble now, because there are a lot of scenarios where the killer just shrugs and keeps chasing you, especially if they have a power that can handle Dead Hard- which a lot of killers, even a lot of the weaker ones, do.
As for the Exhaustion perks... you can't be telling me that you think Smash Hit is as powerful as Sprint Burst or Lithe, surely? I'd agree that they're all usable, but they're nowhere near the same levels of strength. People are going to pick the stronger ones more than they pick the weaker ones, that's what I mean. The weaker ones need to be stronger before we can go down the route of nerfing the most picked ones solely for being the most picked-- since again, "most picked" is irrelevant if it's only the most picked by a small percentage and overall there's reasonable variety.
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New Dead Hard, by contrast, does let someone avoid dropping the pallet (not avoid going down, as we're discussing its use at a pallet), at the cost of Deep Wound, no stun for the killer, and potentially having absolutely nowhere for their speed boost to take them. It's a gamble now, because there are a lot of scenarios where the killer just shrugs and keeps chasing you, especially if they have a power that can handle Dead Hard- which a lot of killers, even a lot of the weaker ones, do.
What is your argument here? So new DH is weaker now because killers keep chasing you but with the old DH killers would stop chasing you? Even though the new DH gives more distance, so the actual chase always going to be longer? Are you using some psychological reasoning here, lol?
Why would the killers stop chases when old dead hard was used compared to new dead hard? It literally doesn't make any sense. If they could not get to a pallet with the new DH, they would absolutely not get to a pallet with the old DH, so why would killers now prefer to chase but not before? Breaking a pallet and then chasing would not be longer than the distance gained with the new DH so there is absolutely no sense why would killers always drop chases with old DH compared to new DH.
As for the Exhaustion perks... you can't be telling me that you think Smash Hit is as powerful as Sprint Burst or Lithe, surely? I'd agree that they're all usable, but they're nowhere near the same levels of strength. People are going to pick the stronger ones more than they pick the weaker ones, that's what I mean. The weaker ones need to be stronger before we can go down the route of nerfing the most picked ones solely for being the most picked-- since again, "most picked" is irrelevant if it's only the most picked by a small percentage and overall there's reasonable variety.
Sprint burst, lithe and balanced landing are all balanced exhaustion perks and should be used as benchmarks for where DH should be. I'm fine with buffing smash hit to the strength of those 3 perks, just as I'm fine with nerfing DH to the strength of these 3 perks.
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I'm not quite sure what you mean by "remove the pallet invulnerability mechanic". If you mean you think the survivor should "lose ties" at pallets I'm not sure that's possible since that's a latency issue where the killer sees they got a hit on their screen and the survivor sees they got a pallet stun on their screen. What are the details of the change you want to see happen regarding pallets and Dead Hard?
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It won't be nerfed because the community believes it takes "skill". You have to wait a couple of years until more and more people start abusing it again before BHVR looks at it again due to public outcry. Sorry man.
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When survivors are near a pallet (any pallet), they can time their dead hard in a way that guarantees them either a pallet drop or a dead hard proc because:
1 Either killer swings during dead hard animation and procs dead hard
2 Killer waits it out but then the survivor drops a pallet and stuns killer
If a survivor does it properly, there is NO counterplay, with exception of a few killers. The killer cannot "just wait it out" because if they wait it out, survivor can drop a pallet. So they're forced into a lose-lose situation. This is the biggest problem with Dead Hard and how it feels so unfair.
And while it requires more skill than old dead hard to perform this move, it doesn't require nearly enough to justify a "lose-lose" scenario for a killer. There is no counterplay from the killer side, they have to rely on survivors messing up. The timing window is way too generous for survivors that they don't really need much skill to do this.
They can implement a nerf to this by preventing survivors from dropping a pallet after dead-hard animation for X seconds. There are other ways to fix this too, and honestly, I don't care as long as this mechanic is gone.
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I hate that you're saying the truth :^) It's super skilful to press E when near a pallet to guarantee a 3rd health state. The timing is impeccable, only 0.1 % of top players manage to get use of it!
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So why does everyone pick it still? I really don't get this argument. We've had 3 months since 6.10, and it's still used overwhelmingly everywhere. Do you think survivors pick DH, don't get value out of it and then just keep using it lol? Especially, when there is a perk like Sprint Burst which literally any noob player can use to a decent effect. Massive mental gymnastics in my honest opinion.
I wasn't making any argument there, I was pointing out how you were conflating correlation with value, which isn't an argument. People run perks all the time that they get no value at all from. People run Deliverance and get hooked first, people run DS and OTR and don't get tunneled off hook, people run Soul Guard and never get picked up from the ground. It's an objective fact that DH, which gives conditional value, gives objectively less value than SB/Lithe, or even Balanced, which gives guaranteed value. The only exhaustion perk I would place below DH is Smash Hit, and that's because it's also conditional value, contingent on the killer eating a pallet. I can't speak for why people run DH, I can only speak for why I (occasionally) run it. I'll run it when I can use a setup that gives me a near guaranteed successful use of DH (For the People into DH with WGLF so the person picked up can also eat a hit, for example). In any game where I personally run DH, I get less value from it than in any game where I run any other exhaustion perk. But I'm also at an MMR on survivor where 95% of killers will wait two and a half hours for the DH, and an MMR on killer where survivors know to fake the DH, so it's not nearly as guaranteed as you make it seem to be. I'll say again, claiming that a perk's pick rate is directly proportional to its value is a non-argument.
Simply untrue when it's used as a pallet. There is no counterplay bar for a few killers. The mess-up is on SURVIVOR'S SIDE, not the killers'. If the killer gets baited by it inin the open by a dead hard or on a predictable hit (ex: Nurse, Huntress) then the mistake is on the KILLER'S SIDE.
And that's specifically why I mentioned that as the exception for when DH has no counterplay. Even then, I'd say there is some counterplay, in the form of not respecting the pallet and not swinging at the DH. A lot of players will greed a pallet if they expect a killer to swing through it at a DH. It works 9/10 times for me. The other 1/10 times is someone playing extra safe that will DH AND drop the pallet. Even then, if we consider DH with its only objective value being giving you a speed boost if you manage to get hit through a pallet, that's still objectively less value than SB/Lithe.
Yes, I hate going against this perk on how it conditions the killer to constantly have to wait 2-4 seconds to check if a perk is used (with the addition of an uncounterable mechanic it has). It would be fine if the perk wasn't so dominant in the meta, but more and more lobbies are popping up with 3-4 dead hards. In so many ways new DH is the same as the old DH that honestly it makes me nauseous. Nothing has changed, even after 5 years.
Consider the following: stop making your "waiting" for DH so blatant. Sometimes, I'll know for a fact a survivor has it, and I'll still swing after waiting a half second, because they never expect it. DbD is a game that is entirely based around mindgames, you can mindgame just about anything, to include the timing on a DH.
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Dead Hard might be the worst survivor perk in the game now. It's litterally so easy to play around as killer.
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It was never nerfed but reworked. It is more difficult to use but more rewarding.
I hope it stays like this and actually gets fixed so you can activate it last moment as it is the only perk of the game that makes the game feel action.
In my opinion the game should be around perks like this, actually skill based and fun (rewarding) to use.
The frustration is understandable and it also comes from the fact that more people than it is known use "auto-dead hard" cheats. (there is also some frustration that comes from misunderstanding that endurance actually comes from other perks as well, and people generalize on DH)
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Exhaustion perks are the equivalent of gen-regression perks for killer. The extend the chase therefore wasting time for killer just like gen-regression slows down gens for survivors. Both are about denying their opponents their objective.
Looping and chases keep getting nerfed. The Killer coming out is anti-loop and one of his perks punishes the survivor for stunning Killer with a pallet and rewards the killer getting stunned with Exposed.
If looping gets even more nerfed then gen-rushing will become even more prevalent (and the new survivor has 3 perks that revolve around gens, 2 of which affect gen repair speed). I dunno how fun you find this, but from what I've been reading Killers don't seem especially fond of gen-rushing. If you hate chasing as well what is left for you to do as Killer. Should the game become hide and seek again?
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Well if they reduce the sprint time after the Dead Hard blocks a hit then that reduces the distance the survivor gets in the scenario you're describing.
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"Looping and chases keep getting nerfed" - I stopped reading there...
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Because you are biased
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Do you even read anything that you don't agree with from the first sentence?
Need to know for future posting whenever I see you.
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It's an objective fact that DH, which gives conditional value, gives objectively less value than SB/Lithe, or even Balanced, which gives guaranteed value. The only exhaustion perk I would place below DH is Smash Hit, and that's because it's also conditional value, contingent on the killer eating a pallet. I can't speak for why people run DH, I can only speak for why I (occasionally) run it.
So you're saying the most picked perk in the game (not only amongst exhaustion perks but also amongst ALL PERKS) is highly situational and niche. What's the logic there? So DH:
1 Is hard to use compared to other exhaustion perks (community words)
2 Requires a lot of skill (community words)
3 Is situational and doesn't bring value as often as one would think (your words)
And yet this perk dominates across exhaustion perks, and across ALL other perks. We've had 3 months to figure out the meta, and you think the community still overwhelmingly picks high-skill floor, highly situational and moderate reward perk? Something doesn't align here buddy. What you're saying is the community is dumb, doesn't recognize that DH doesn't give relatively constant value and should choose other exhaustion perks to cause they are more useful on average.
And that's specifically why I mentioned that as the exception for when DH has no counterplay. Even then, I'd say there is some counterplay, in the form of not respecting the pallet and not swinging at the DH.
You eat pallet stun then.
It works 9/10 times for me. The other 1/10 times is someone playing extra safe that will DH AND drop the pallet. Even then, if we consider DH with its only objective value being giving you a speed boost if you manage to get hit through a pallet, that's still objectively less value than SB/Lithe.
Idk what MMR you're playing but in my games, players know they can use DH to either gain sprint burst or stun the killer. Seems like survivors on your level just can't use DH properly.
Consider the following: stop making your "waiting" for DH so blatant. Sometimes, I'll know for a fact a survivor has it, and I'll still swing after waiting a half second, because they never expect it. DbD is a game that is entirely based around mindgames, you can mindgame just about anything, to include the timing on a DH.
Yeah I swing too sometimes because I know they have DH and they're not looking behind for example. I know that scenario well and used it to my advantage. With that being said, such cases happen rarely. Most of the common use case is where you MUST swing or you eat a pallet.
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Yeah, I read it, but your words are so overwhelmingly biased it's not worth my attention.
You're complaining about a new killer. That is very humorous considering his anti-loop is weak at best and can be easily countered.
You're also complaining about one of his perks which puts you in an exposed state after you stun the killer. This seems like a skill issue if you can't counter it.
Exhaustion perks are the equivalent of gen-regression perks for killer.
I'm saving this one as a quote. Comparing gen regression which almost always requires the killer to either kick a gen AND/OR get a down to a free given speed boost for literally doing nothing. Yeah, good comparison.
"Looping gets nerfed"
When did they last time nerfed looping in any way? Most survivors can't even loop properly.
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They literally nerfed most good anti-loop killers (slinger, freddy, spirit, PH)
Give evidence that looping and chases keep getting nerfed. Thanks, looking forward to it.
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1, reduced sprint after hit
2, lower hit cooldown after hit
3, removed pallets in existing maps (I noticed every 2 weeks a pallet goes missing from some map)
4, map reworks are always more killer favoring then the original. Yet god forbid to touch midwitch or shelter woods
5, have you seen new tiles? Especially that new trash gym? They are now part of RNG for existing maps. But all new tiles are just awful.
Do I have to continue?
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1, reduced sprint after hit
Hold W is nerfed and is irrelevant to looping. Additionally, most of the time you can still make it to the next tile.
2, lower hit cooldown after hit
See response #1
3, removed pallets in existing maps (I noticed every 2 weeks a pallet goes missing from some map)
Yeah, because most maps are still overwhelmingly survivor sided.
4, map reworks are always more killer favoring then the original. Yet god forbid to touch midwitch or shelter woods
Massively wrong. They reworked all farm maps and they're still as strong if not as stronger as before. Badham maps got reworked - the same story. The game was reworked into a much stronger survivor map. Lery's was reworked into a stronger survivor map. Midwich isn't even a killer-sided map, good survivors can utilize hold W and destroy most killers + there are really strong tiles in 2 places + 2 god pallets. Shelter Woods is a weak survivor map but it doesn't even come close to killer compared to all other survivor-sided maps. They added eyries and garden of joy arguably the two strongest survivors maps in the game.
5, have you seen new tiles? Especially that new trash gym? They are now part of RNG for existing maps. But all new tiles are just awful.
New tiles are not strong at all, but they still can be looped for a bit of time. You don't loop using those tiles, you loop once, mind game and then run to the next loop if you did well. With that being said, it's good that they're adding more skilful tiles instead of things like jungle gyms. They are still way too many safe loops in most of the maps.
Do I have to continue?
Apparently, yes, you do. Safe loops are getting nerfed (which they should) - it's very sad that survivors can't just drop most of the pallets anymore and get 3 gen chase. But they'll have to adapt and use their brains a bit more when choosing tiles and mind-gaming killers.
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Midwitch isn't killer sided. Ok mate. I am ending this discussion with you. Aparently you have never played DBD
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The fact that DH is arguably weaker after removing the distance still does not make it an okay perk in the hands of a decent / practised survivor.
Landing a dead-hard can still extend chases by double or triple the amount and if it happens during your first chase - many of your games will be almost impossible to save with decent survivors.
It provides too much value still. The fact that you have to practise a little to use it and it does not fill all situations is not argument enough to leave it as is.
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