Nerf Circle of Healing (again)
COH is one of the most oppressive perks that a survivor can bring against a killer. A COH boon alone can allow a team to reset independently and alleviate a lot of the pressure that a killer can dish out by injuring people, not to mention it hard counters certain killers like Twins. As long as COH allows people to self-heal with no strings attached and at a very reasonable speed, it is far too strong. Not only this, but it is more time-efficient for the survivor to set up a boon over and over again than it is for a killer to kick it. The killer needs to go out of their way to 1) find the boon, 2) kick it, 3) do this for every time it gets set up. This is also a critical amount of time that a killer wastes where survivors are not actively being pressured. The only semi-counter to a boon is Shattered Hope, which will see no value if a team doesn't bring a boon, or brings one but resets it constantly throughout the match.
Medkits also suffer from the same issue but to a lesser extent, since they're limited in charges, can be seen in pre-game, and can be countered more universally along with other items with Franklin's or certain killers' powers.
COH specifically needs to have a much bigger downside to its use. Here are some ideas I came up with from least extreme to most extreme:
- Totems that have COH active shatter when kicked by the killer.
- Range for COH is reduced to 12m.
- Speed of self-healing without a medkit is slowed to 30%.
- Killer sees the aura of any active boon that has COH (either temporarily or permanently).
- Remove ability to self-care without a medkit entirely (buff healing speed to others to make up for this).
It's beyond demoralizing for a killer to start a game, and hear the sound effect for a boon 30 seconds into it. It's unacceptable for this perk to continue to exist under its current form.
Comments
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I dont think it should be nerfed, I think it should instead be reworked.
I had the idea where within it's radius, you passively heal yourself 1.5%/2.5%/3.5% healing progress per second until 50% total healing progression. Just something interesting but not insanely strong since it requires survivors to still find a teammate to heal. Also I feel like it would have some interesting synergy with perks like Reactive Healing, etc.
EDIT: This is just an idea, Im not saying to do this exactly the way I put it, Im saying to just experiment with new ideas and concepts, Im tired of the same old perk formula we see.
Post edited by Iron_Cutlass on3 -
1, killers have insanely strong perks - and I would argue even stronger then survivors
2, COH is by far not as efficient as you make it to be. Search time for killer is much shorter then for survivor, because dull/hex totems blend more (especially dull), dulls don't make any sound, booning takes time and if you are interupted for a split second it regresses to nothing, COH have many strings attached to it (e.g. hex build where everyone cleanses all the dulls).
Going with your suggestion to nerf COH. I would only agree if:
a, COH got it's speed reduced to 125%
b, Eruption lost it's incapacitated part
c, Overcharge started at 50% instead of 75% regression speed and skillcheck was at least 50% larger
It's beyond demoralizing that killer can camp his 3gen and regress it to 0 in rather short amount of time even if 4 survivors are trying to break it - not to mention if 1 got tunneled out. It's unacceptable for these perks to continue to exist under its current form.
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So you basically want the perk to be as useless as reactive healing. Got it. No thank you. I would rather take even autodidact then your version of COH or reactive healing. At least autodidact counters anti-healing build. Those 2 would be (reactive healing is) beyond useless
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- That's fine, but killer can only bring 4 perks to a match, whereas survivors can bring 16. Killer needs to sacrifice 25% of his perk allocation to deal with boons, whereas survivors need to sacrifice as little as 6.25% of their perk allocation to bring COH.
- It definitely is, especially on maps with any semblance of verticality (The Game, Midwich, main buildings with multiple floors). Killer has no idea where the dulls will spawn, and survivors have access to perks that can give them an indication as to where dulls will spawn, as well as being able to bring maps that show the aura.
And as for your "compromise", we're not playing tit for tat. If you have an issue with the perks you listed, you're free to suggest a nerf to them as well. I don't know how popular the suggestion will be, considering you're having problems with the skill check on Overcharge of all things, but it's your prerogative. We're not here to split hairs on what killers have to "give up" in order for COH to be made into something that's ever so slightly more balanced. Either the perk is busted and it needs a nerf, or it isn't, and thus for both killer and survivor perks.
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I am saying killers have multitude of busted perks. I named only a few. There are more (pain res, DMS, STBFL, dHope if you like to gamble, corrupted, .... all very very good perks). On the other hand survivors have what? DH that does not work if killer has lags, COH if you can find a totem (meaning if there is any totem left for you and you can find it in timely manner), reassurence only if killer camps and it's not basement and it's killer that can deny you going close to hook, OTR if killer does not hit you immediately after unhook, DS but only if you pair it with DH and OTR... You see the trend? Killers have just good perks. Survivors have good perks IF....
And no. It is compromise. You want to nerf one of the meta perks. One that I think is inconsistent (it can heal you in 21s in best case and never in worst case) and would not touch it ever if they did not recently nerf SC again. You still want to nerf survivors despite 61% kill rate, incentives being on survivor all the time and queue times being almost always way longer on killer even after incentives. So if you really want to do that, then I demand a compensation. But a good one. So if I was to support your argument, I want 3 best gen regression perks (and yes 3 of them - because killers have that many regression perks and survivors don't have any good alternative for self healing after boons would be nerfed) to be substantially nerfed as a compensation. Because you HAVE TO compensate for such a bad nerf. The alternative is to return 50% efficiency onto self care (keep botany the way it is now) and then I don't care about COH and you can outright delete it from game for all I care.
Also to your point - just bring XYZ to make COH efficient. You don't need to bring another perk to make eruption incapacitate survivors for 25s + instant regression + regression within those 25s.
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i would suggest just giving it a Cooldown.
After the Killer Snuffs your COH you get a 60 second Cooldown before you can set it up again.
That way it doesnt lose any of its strenghts but you also dont have to deal with the frustration of having to Snuff a Boon just for it to light up somewhere else.
Or make it snuff out once you down/Hook the Survivor
There is many ways to address it without making it useless for the Survivor Side.
(Also stopp comparing it to Killer Perks, we need to address one Problem at a Time and not point Fingers at each other)
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(all survivor topics should now get higher priority because I will not repeat myself. Survivors as a whole are now weaker role - especially soloQ - and this should take precedence over all the other topics. Otherwise you risk full alienation of survivors)
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i don't fully agree. All SoloQ Topics should have Priotity cause a SoloQ Survior is the weakest Role. I would still say that a 4 Man SWF with Strong Builds are able to defeat over 70% of the Killer Roaster.
So if we are talking about Survivor Buffs, then only if they help out SoloQ and don't really affect SWF.
Also just because there is a bigger Problem doesnt mean we need to ignore other Problems.
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4man SWF with strong build will 100% not get 70% escape rate against strong killer with strong addons. I would go as far as to say it's going to be way below 50% for nurse/blight/spirit with their OP addons and builds
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i was not talking about the strongest Killers but the Killers available to play.
There is Killers that even when using strong Perks and Addons will get destroyed by a halfway decent SWF.
Now im not saying we should nerf SWF in any way. Just Buff SoloQ up to their Standards.
Im all for buffing SoloQ first, but not if thats just going to be a huge buff to SWF. They don't need it. Cause if SWFs are getting buffed. Then we need Killers to be buffed again. And then SoloQ is just super weak again. And then the Circle continues.
So: Buff SoloQ and raise them as close as possible to the Level of SWF without buffing SWF. And then we can talk again about Killer balance. Like finally Nerfing Nurse for Gods sake.
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Ok. I can agree with that. My idea was to buff solo in ways that are superfluous for SWF (mostly info, ping, hud action indicators), but that is off topic
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I hate these sorts of posts. People trot out this well the other side does this stuff! Like that somehow invalidates the actual topic at hand.
These perks you mentioned have literally nothing to do with circle of healing. They're a whole other thing. Game's asymmetrical. It's more nuanced than a rope being tugged back and forth.
In regards to OP: rather than a straight nerf I'd rather see it limited in some capacity. Give it +25% healing from what it has now and give it a hefty duration, something like 300s. As survivors utilize it the duration drains more quickly with a buffer at the very end so folks can finish off their heals. When the duration times out the other boon effects remain except circle. The survivor would have to bless a new totem to refresh circle.
Or give it a 40s or so cooldown. I'd really like a minor buff to go along with any nerf tho.
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Honestly just nerf medkits instead.
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buff the altruistic healing percentage and remove ability to self heal in it (only altruistic so you cant heal in 5 seconds with a medkit)
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I think a med kit penalty would be fair. Med kits are already so broken so let's at least let them have anti synergy with healing perks
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Circle of Healing is only good probably at top MMR. Most of the time it works as another gen-slowdown for killer since they boon 4-5 totems in a game which is like a minute of not doing gens, not counting the time they waste looking for the totem if they don't have perks for finding totems.
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"oppressive"? Are you a killer or a survivor ahah kill everything that moves.
Jokes aside. No. It is busted but let's welcome strong perks. Rather tunnel a person out of the game if they play hard, but we cannot take away survivors of strong perks. The idea of this one is just too good :)
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Slowed to 30%? So then you propose to make self care 20%? Lol
They would still both see use tho I guarantee that, even if self care was nerfed to 1% people would still use it instead of looking for other people to heal them (talking about new players here)
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When did I propose to make self-care 20%? Self-care only affects the individual bringing it. If a full team wants to bring self-care, they have to sacrifice 25% of their perk allocation, as opposed to the 6.25% required for COH. It's ridiculous that COH allows you to heal yourself faster than self-care while also being more efficient on your perk allocation, while ALSO acting as slowdown for a killer that needs to continuously snuff it.
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That's for swf, I'm talking about for solo queue as there would be no reason to take COH anymore since self care is better and would literally make COH basically useless unless self care is nerfed to (but at this point healing speeds would be so slow that everyone would just bring medkits with built to last instead or just Inner Healing)
At least the experienced survivors anyway
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The ability to infinitely heal oneself without sacrificing a perk slot, while also healing other people faster, would be useless if we brought it down to Self-Care levels of speed? How do you even come up with this conclusion? I'm of the opinion that COH shouldn't have any ability to self-heal whatsoever, and should act as a beacon for teammates to heal each other in, instead of the free "go here to reset all pressure that killer spent 3 minutes building up" zone.
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Self care takes a long time to heal already at 35%, imagine that at 30%
Yes COH would be a trash tier perk just from that and everyone would pick self care instead, especially since u have to set the boon up every time the killer snuffs it. It would be idiotic to run it outside of meme builds. It has limited range as well unlike botany too
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Self care takes a long time to heal already at 35%, imagine that at 30%
That is precisely why I picked 30%. If you're getting the ability to infinitely reset the pressure a killer is establishing, it shouldn't be more time-efficient than finding a teammate to heal you. I would much rather have lobbies running 4x Self-Care and healing for 42 seconds in the corner, knowing that's 4 perks I don't have to worry about being something else, than a lobby running COH, self-healing in 32 seconds, and the only way to stop it is for me to drop everything I'm doing and go play treasure hunt with the boon.
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1. Absurdities of one side does not justify absurdities of the other.
2. A single CoH heal + blessing equates to around 32 seconds, which is as efficient as a normal heal. Further heals + medkits cut into this significantly. Furthermore, the killer has to snuff it, the entire time they're walking to and snuffing, the entire team is going without pressure. This can be done infinitely because boons have no limit.
3. Again, absurdities of one side doesn't justify absurdities of the other. If we say X can't happen, unless Y happens to, we'll get nowhere.
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Please measure it and don't go with theory on me. Average heal time with CoH is somewhere around minute (killer just left you or you just got unhooked but you are in soloQ and so the other guy already left). You could theoretically get healed in 21s. But usually you need to go around whole map. Injured. Or maybe the boon is not standing or killer is already there so you need to boon yourself (booning +14s for 35s heal). Finding totem can take you anything from 0s to 120s on average somewhere around 40-50s (sure enough it's map dependant and you could have previously found dull - but again that can be on the other side of map). And there is also chance for plaything/pentimento+1 hex or inner healers, overzelous, .... So there are 0 totems in game.
If boons were really that OP, then everyone would use them and SH would be seen every other game. Instead we see "I don't want to take perk that might not give me value". Clearly boons are not that bad by this single thing alone. And no - killers have 61% kill rate. They can spare perk for something that might not bring any value. You play winning side already
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Suggesting a nerf to overcharge and not call of brine which is better in every single way?
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I know I am late to responding, but it is just an idea, it can be modified further and changed to be better balanced.
I just want more interesting and dynamic perks, Im getting tired of "if ____ does ____ then you get (insert buff/debuff) for ____", it's a boring formula we see over and over, and there are better ways of going about it.
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Maybe all those nerf COH would all disappear if they reverted SC nerf. I know myself, the I would not touch CoH with a long pole if SC came back to it's previous numbers (where community called it killer's perk). Or the other aspect that I don't care about - remove altruistic healing speedup altogether. I don't care about that one. I want to have CoH when my brown medkit runs up or when killer hits me with franklins
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Sorry. It was a typo on my side. In my point a, I ofcourse meanet 125% of CoB not
CoH. Sure I thought about Call of brine. It's one of the strongest perks in the game. OC is (way) stronger only in elo where hitting skillcheck is still hard (that's why in my dummy nerf call I asked to make that size doubled)0 -
I dont think COH have to be nerfed. I havnt found it being an issue while playing a killer, nor it was as much helpfull while playing a surv. Its more like a nice addition.
Tho shattered hope perk could be buffed, to be at least some effective if survs did not brought any boon perks... tho i have no idea how
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Everyone is really sleeping on Inner Healing for self-healing. A 22 second self-heal + getting rid of a Dull Totem, like it is pretty good in that regard. Plus it is a Universal Perk so everyone can use it.
Ive seen people say "but what about Pentimento" but honestly I rarely see anyone bring Pentimento as of recently. Ive mostly seen Deadlock, DMS, and Pain Res recently with the occasional aura reading perk here and there, also ya know, Call of Brine + Overcharge + Eruption, but albeit you always see those 3 perks together and never in a diverse setting.
I kind of like Inner Healing, even if it is straight up a boring perk, it's one of the perks that I use to heavily rely on when I first started playing DBD (back when the Stranger Things DLC was a thing), it kind of has a special place in my heart right by Balanced Landing and Iron Will.
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Ahh all good, tbh they could maybe nerf some of these killer perks once maps are fixed since on a big map with awful setups like eyrie of crows, if your not playing a strong killer you really feel the need to run these perks or you simply just cant keep up.
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It has same problems as medkit. Very limited number of heals (so 3gen camping hit & run killer with 3 regression perks WILL win), possible long search time for totem and really bad if somebody else needs boons or also takes inner healing. If I was to take limited heals, then BTL with good medkit is WAY better and otherwise pharmacy is a little bit better (if you can spare coin for 5 chests).
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I mean yea but the issue with 3-Gens is entirely dependent upon your teammates. I rarely 3-Gen even in SoloQ. But that is more of an issue with generator spread, on some maps generators are too far and most killers cannot pressure some parts of the map, on some maps generators are too close an survivors are always pressured by the killer, I think BHVR needs to find the right balance when it comes to map generation.
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No longer true. Wesker with iri addon and 4 regressions can camp his 3gen from beginning (giving you 4 gens for free) and still win the game.
This can be countered with prediction (take BNP on good toolbox, don't use it until 3gen is identified), being better chaser by very huge margin, or having cracked reflexes and using hyperfocus to full benefit.
Overall usually vials will run out, self heals will run out, but ability and regressions will stay. It's going to be very long match, but wesker will win
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Breaking a 3-gen should be very easy for any competent team of survivors, even if they're not on comms, as long as they understand to immediately get on a gen when killer loses aggro and to leave when he picks up aggro again. Even with COB, a killer's regression time is half as valuable as a single survivor's time on a gen. Either way, this isn't the thread to be discussing the balance of regression perks.
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Wow! If someone being able to heal themselves in a video game offends you this much, you should probably get out more. Go for a walk in the woods and recharge for a bit. Just don't let something this trivial wind you up this much because it's just not healthy.
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Wow, seriously??? So having the ability to do a boon, which benefits all players, is a major issue for you,?
What about survivors that are being tunneled and constantly hit down by idiot killers and need that boon to help them to heal and stay in the game, seriously dude, get a grip, and maybe stick to playing Minecraft, it sounds more your kinda game!!
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Against any other killer I would agree. But wesker can bound hit you. Which means yo need to heal and in some time also cure (double slowdown). The more vials you used, the longer it takes - until you can't cure any more. And when you get fully infected, it's almost gg. Looping is almost impossible.
For every other killer you can split to all 3 gens and even if most progressed gen regresses, the other 2 will progress more. But wesker with his bound provides extra slowdown that you can't just ignore. Until you cure those other gens will regress way more.
So you need to break it immediatelly, or you must be better looper (never getting m2 hit in this case is huge) or you need to rush those gens somehow (like mentioned BNP). If it takes too long, you loose. This is the opposite to any other killer.
And if you need to steal your teammates time (because this whole thread)... You can go offer yourself to killer to save 30+ mins of boring match you can't win anyway.
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If you're getting hit by his bound, that means he's committing to a chase, meaning your teammates are getting gen progression. If he's not committing, it means you shouldn't get hit by his bound. Pretty simple.
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i would rather them just remove the selfcare part of it and massively boost the heal speed.
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So you want the perk killed. Got it.
Self-care part is the most important part about the perk. Boost to altruistic healing is nice bonus, but not really needed. It would need to give 1000% bonus heal speed and I still would most likely not take it (not until it's very close to pallet stun timing being enough to heal someone and keep that health state). Still it would be huge step down
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The self-care part is precisely the problematic aspect of it. The speed of healing could also be problematic (if, say, it lets teammates heal each other in 4 seconds), but being able to infinitely and independently reset without a medkit and remove all pressure that a killer can build up by injuring you is simply far too strong.
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Or self heal speed could be lowered to 33%. Im not sure, but right now its 50%, plus 50% healing speed by boon itself, allowing people to selfheal at 75%. Reducing self-heal to 33% would translate to effective speed inside circle = 50%. If someone needs more, they can bring self-care and heal at 75% instead of 50%.
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No it's not the average dosen't know how to take advantage of the time survivor waste on it or time management in general.
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People ask to nerf the only good healing perk and then run sloppy butcher in every match smh
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How would removing the self-care aspect of COH but buffing the altruistic aspect benefit sloppy in any way? In fact, it does the opposite, it makes sloppy weaker because you now heal faster in a boon.
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Because survivors (especially soloQ) need solo heals. Otherwise you will never heal at all. Meaning it's medkits (limited & counterable), inner healing/pharmacy (very limited and pray you are alone in this idea) or self care - and sloppy hurts SC the most
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Maybe at the lowest levels. Even without any info perks to keep tabs on fellow survivors, it's not excessively hard to figure out where at least one of your teammates will be. The issue we're discussing here is specifically how powerful solo heals are, with COH being the worst offender.
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I think the self heal should be removed, unless you also bring Self-Care.
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