Two fundamental flaws that hold the game back
- The base kits for Killer and Survivor are lackluster and don't account for optimal play.
- The disparity between the weakest and strongest loadouts.
A bit long, I'll put some TLDR along the way.
Raw time for survivor objective completion : 5 x 90s = 450s = 7.5 minutes of collective gen time (less than 2 minutes for each individual survivors) + 20s door (x2 optional). Match total duration is about 8 minutes if a single surv is doing gens at a time.
Raw time for Killer objective completion : 4-12 chases. Outside Nurse or Blight minimal chase time all things consider probably range from 30s to 2 min, i.e. a mean of 1.25 min or 75s. If you take the shortcut and do 4 chases all game, you'll need to camp at least 2 people, meaning it takes you 2 minutes each. You'll then need to do 2 more chases. So, 75 + 120 (first kill at 3.5 min) + 75 + 120 + 75 + 75 = 540s = 9 min of total match duration.
If you rather go for 12 hooks, there is also a great disparity between hooking back to back or spreading hooks. If we assume the same average chase time and add 15s to find a new target, we get : 15 + 75 + 15 + 75 + 15 + 75 = 270s, i.e. first kill at 4.5 min if you tunnel. If you don't, you need to do 9 chases to get first kill : (75 x 9) + (15*9) = 810s or 13.5 min to get a kill if you don't tunnel.
These matches length can stretch from 11 to 18 minutes.s.
The only option for the killer to win, if he doesn't camp, is to stretch survivor's objective by stalling them and regressing gens. Base kit regression = 2.5% or 2.25s + 1/4/s. If you kick a 99% gen in between each chase and for whatever reason the game last long enough for you to do 12 and nobody goes back on the gens you kicked you got : (990/4 + 900/4 + 810/4 + 720/4 + 630/4 + 540/4 + 450/4 + 360/4) cap at 90s + 270/4 + 180/4 + 90/4 + (2.25*11) = 855s or 14 min.
TLDR : minimal base kit survivor objective time is about 8 minutes. Killers range from 9 min by full on camping to 18 minutes by playing a 12 hooks game. By playing the gen regression game and getting full value, Killer will kill his first surv when the other 3 get out if 2 surv were doing gens.
A killer that wants to win in a vanilla DbD game wants to camp, if it fails, he wants to tunnel. He never wants to touch a gen. A survivor team want to avoid being camp or tunnel and have at least 2 people on gens at all time, so the Killer can't win a hooking game.
Now, if we add perks and items into the mix.
Best perks for survivors, increase durability in chase or gen speed. Best gen build : Commodious TB with charges and BnP, Stake out, Hyperfocus, BtL or PtS. The box alone shave almost half a gen. The perks can do the same, meaning the build halves the gen time for a solo survivor.
Time do to gens if everybody use the build with only one survivor doing a gen at a time : 4 min.
Then add DH to get 15-60s more chase time 1-3 time a game.
Best perks for Killer increase the time it takes for a survivor to escape the trial. Best regression build : Eruption, Pain res, CoB. If you proc each perk one time per chase, you get (9 x 11) + (13.5 x 11) = 247.5s or 4 minutes of gen time or 2 gens. Add to that best Brine value, up to (990/2 + 900/2 + 810/2 + 720/2 + 630/2 + 540/2 + 450/2 + 360/2 + 270/2 + 180/2) cap at 90s + 90/2 + (2.25*11) = 970s or 16 min.
Best blocking build : Deadlock + NWO = 30 x 4 + 60 = 180s or 3 minutes.
The best Killer stalling builds at max value barely nullify the best survivor gen speed build at min value.
TLDR : Best loadouts for each side completely change the path of the game, doubling or halving the time it takes for survivors to escape.
Now imagine in an open MMR like we have where someone with minimal loadout can face someone stacked out that will double your objective or halve it... It just gate keep players from using non-optimal stuff and play style. And every time you nerf a gameplay aspect from each side to mitigate this disparity, you just incentivize players to use stronger and stronger loadouts to keep the game flow coherent from game to game.
Imagine if in a game like League, some players would start the game with a full on completed item and the opponent is just playing with starter golds. It's basically 75% of games in DbD.
You need to bridge the gap between optimal objective time from each side and reduce the impact of the loadouts.
Killers should use auras perks, chase perks, stealth perks and surv should use deception perks, exhaustion perks and team perks, to create interesting and unpredictable situations in chase.
- Get rid of perks, add ons and items that impact objective speed for both sides.
- Adjust the survivor objective to be faster than the killer when they do good in chase, same if both are average and longer if the killer is winning fast chases by giving base regression on hooks, ex : Give pain res on every hook, give 10% pop on kicks for 60s after hooking, gen auto regress when someone is on hook and nobody is working on it, injured surv repair slower ...
- Get rid of camping by any means, there is like 1 million ideas to do so that would be very simple to implement, ex : make hooks work like PH cages, prevent using killers power around hooked surv, prevent grabing on hooks, get rid of hooks and put a respawn system ...
- Get rid of oppressive killer add-ons or give them drawbacks. Give add-ons and items that complement gameplay aspects or create new interactions between players.
- Normalize Nurse by increasing her cooldowns and base speed.
- Normalize killer's CDs with utility, how can Blight have 3 seconds CDs per rush with almost full on control when Whesker get 1 every 6 seconds with almost no control ? How can PH get 12 m range with almost no steering when DS, Artist or Huntress can 360 no scope MLG ? It's ok to have different power strength, but they should be coherent, like x distance gain by power need x CDs. Or you'll keep power creeping every time you reinterpret an old concept.
TLDR : Shift the objective control mechanics from perks to base gameplay. Give more agenda in chases for each side. Get rid of problematic add ons. Normalize killer powers to have a coherent CD/utility ratio.
WDYT ?
Comments
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Mostly agree. Very fair on killer's time to get their objective done, although it's the math, so hard to disagree. Definitely take away gen defence and gen speed perks/items, because there's way too much variation as a result. Only things I'd leave in are the fun ones like Soul Chemical. Perfect League comparison. Hard to imagine this game without camping, but we'll have to see.
I don't like killer add-ons that take away, because it cancels out the strength that it gives, but I would like to see many add-ons become base simply because the variable their attached to... shouldn't be variable. Huntress, Doctor, and Victor's charge time should always be the same, for example. Demogorgon and Wesker's movement speed while charging their power should always be the same. Spirit's add-ons, I don't even need to say it. If we standardize killer powers to a degree, and don't depend on add-ons so much, it's gonna be much healthier and more fun for the players, making add-ons more of a personal choice than a necessity. I'd also get rid of add-on rarity for that reason, because nobody wants to accept my other ultimatum that pink and purple add-ons... should be strong. Hard concept to grasp.
The power creep is also crazy. Wraith and Freddy were being moved in a direction to offset that power creep when they were buffed, but then they got nerfed, because they were about as powerful as the new killers... Makes no sense. Massively disagree with most people though that "every new killer that comes out is recycled!" They're all unique enough, not copied and pasted.
And definitely, going forward, balance for the top level of players, not the bottom. Balancing for the top will not impact the bottom. The bottom are the bottom because of their own skill, NOT because of the balance of the game.
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Ideal. As you said the fast disparity in power level between each side is insane. This is a unrealistic example but wraith with no add-ons and perks vs Blight with full meta c33/green speed or iri-tag/alch ring. Sometimes I'll hop on for a couple games and the first game will be people all running the best stuff, while I am running no gen regression and a couple green add-ons on blight, if on the off chance I head into my next game with the intent to match survivors running these strong builds 100% of the time I will go against people who are running a bunch of meme builds and who have no right to be matched against me in the first place. So I just run what sounds fun now instead of ever going full meta, with the exception of 4 med-kits=iri tag.
If they even did the first 3 things you listed in one patch the game would feel so much better.
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I think what holds this game back is nurse and exhaustion perks. Two horribly designed mechanics that some people think is fine because "you rarely go against people your own skill level".
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Oh yes, I agree for the add ons that should be basekit or at least à weaker version. I wanted to add that but the post is already quitte long : many killers have sluggish animations that gatekeep them too much. Like, there is so much disparity between base Huntress and oak and babushka it's not even funny.
I dont think New killer are copypaste but it's true they usually can be place in archetypes : mobility, trap, stealth, instadown, projectile and all the nuance inbetween. Like do we really need to have 3 range killers that use long range staight shots. Idk give us a boomerang or smt, a projectile that change how you aim and how they dodge it. Hell even Wesker dash work like hatchets from surv pov. It's always bait one side and go the other. If it's Blight or Billy you spin and crouch. Change it up. They could give us areas of effect were you need original movement to dodge. The only killer that does an original dance is Nurse and when it works, it's very fullfilling.
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Been there, done that. It's to a point where if you want to chill at night without thinking, you need to be OK to be bodied and go almost naked or go full on tryhard knowing you'll get no challenge whatsoever 90% of your games. Like cant we just take fun aura stuff and have a game longer than 6 minutes and 5 hooks ?
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I personalky think exhaustion are ok from a gameplay pov. Survs need to have some chases tool that allows for riskier plays. It wouldnt be so much of a problem if you could afford some longer chases. Like why does one slightly longer chase make you lose the game when almost the entire cast cant deal with predrop. Also DH is still very much overtune compare to the others exhaustion, it's just that Nurse and Blight make it almost needed. Two faces of the same coin.
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I definitely think builds induce too much objective time variance on either side. I honestly don't mind gen slam builds because it usually means survivors are fairly defenseless. Most on here would disagree with me. Quad slowdown sucks the life out of the game IMO. People say they don't want quick games, but I'm kind of the opposite. This game is bad when trials get into the 15 minute range. I just want to go next on either side.
The powercreep of add ons is a symptom of the devs choosing neither option like they tend to do. In my experience, most killers who run Iri/purples run them a lot. Matchmaking would theoretically put them in matches where that's a balanced match. But the add ons are often not balanced and matchmaking is queue times first. The worst of both worlds in that instance.
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3. Do survivors get a penalty for staying too long in an area or an gen too? Or is that only bad when killers do?
4. - 6. Are we normalizing upwards or downwards? Also hard disagree on nurse nerf. Im all for removing stat boosting addons if a) the replacers arent memes and actually useful and b) the stats (partially?) Become basekit. We can also remove clunkiness without nerfing better killers.
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I agree on survivor generator efficiency math and killer kill-efficiency math but I'm not sure if I agree with killer perks & survivor perk aspect.
The killer perks that induce slowdown to the game are entirely based around the idea that if the survivor fails the chase, the survivor is unable to complete the objective. It creates sense of dynamic objective where the difficult of completing generators is based around killer's skill in the chase.
Without killer slowdown perks, there's basic problem where your running a race and the killer is turtle at the race and the survivor are the fox. The fox simply completes the race faster then turtle does. As a result, the turtle can never win. In your shortest killer math calculation, your shortest match as killer is 9 minutes but shortest survivor generator completion time is roughly 4:30 seconds. I would say on average survivor win-rate time ranges between 5-6 minutes in the most efficient generator objective time possible. 9 minutes vs 5-6 minutes is severe disparity. if you take into account the survivor playing the -end-game hook-trading game-, you can push their total match time to 9 minutes as well. The survivor does not need to engage in this end-game part, so they can simply take 3-escape 1 death.
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The survivor progression perks are interesting because they create dynamic objective time for the killer. current issue with survivor is that survivor can consistently finish all 5 generators assuming normal-chase killer gameplay(game 2) which is 11-18 minutes according to your math. Doing generators currently does not take much skill, any survivor that can complete normal skill-checks will be as much of threat to the killer as any other survivor. With consistency that survivor can progress generators, they can on average account to 5-6 minutes generator every single game. Keyword is consistency. Your consistently making it impossible for the killer to win. For next part, I am just going throw some random numbers as estimated guess. Suppose generator were 120 seconds but each great skill-check was 3-4%. Now you create variation where fastest generator time can be 6-12 minutes. this gives survivor control in their ability to speed-run the game but their ability to speed-run the game is inconsistent meaning that killer has more average-time to chase because not every survivor is as threatening at generators as they are now.
that is kinda of what old hex:ruin and hyperfocus is aiming at. its approaching the problem from a different angle. Its giving survivor the ability to produce fast games, but not producing fast games consistency that the killer can never win unless the survivor is perfect at the objective.
My thoughts on this are that its question of whether survivor should gain artificially difficulty such that their ability to produce unwinnable games is near impossible. The other option is killer producing unwinnable games for the survivor by activating some variant of generator type perks as a result of strong chasing(failure for survivor to succeed in the chase). Its survivor control game vs killer-control game type problem.
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I would like to see all or most addons reworked that just boost stats and let addons be more like mirror Myers or like how that one hag addons changes her traps to be use on will or Freddy having pallets instead of snares.
Let addons be gameplay changers sit down dedikate some people to it and brainstorm so every killer has like three addons that changes how they are played that would be awesome for killer players and I really think it would be cool for survivor players to cause it would bring a new spark into dbd cause you may heard huntress lullaby but you still don't know wich Form of huntress it is
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But your math does not check out. On killer's side you calculate some mean/average. On survivors you calculate some hypothetical raw value. Hypothetical raw value on killer's side should be approximately 7s/hook state (2x hit CD and 1x hook animation). If you say this is not real, then I have to agree. It's also not real to presume single survivor would be able to work on all gens all the time without any movement time. Even if you count "raw values".
If you start to count real values the same way as you do to killer, you would need to add stuff like going for unhooks, healing, running killer, doing totems (especially if they have some hex perks like devour hope) and counter all the regressions. Meaning your math is absolutely absurd - you calculate theoretically unobtainable on survivor's side and realistic on killer's side. Of course it looks like survivors are OP in this comparisons. And yet we have 61% kill rate. This alone should tell you how wrong you are at your calculations.
I know your topic is about balancing full loadout against no loadout, but you create an example that shows "bad science" - and people will take this example and point to it in their next arguments. For future reference you should not do that. It's not healthy. If you want to provide raw unattainable values, provide them on both sides (so survivors finish gens in 90s each making the game total in 112.5s+20s for gate - killer gets 12th hook in 84s) or provide some reasonable estimate for both sides (even people that are not chased can be disturbed, take into account unhooking time, travel time, finding generators time or doing different objectives, countering possible slowdown from killer powers, ...)
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I agree that 15 min games with killer draging his 3 gen to à crawl is some of thé shittiest experience this game offers but 5 min game are also pretty boring because you barelly play thé game. Most good killer get those type of game alot where you play like 4 chases and someone give up or you find that One good surv and maybe you get genrush first chase. But all of this is mainly due to rng and what players chose to bring into the trial.
For add ons, their is just to much power difference between stronger and weakest add ons. A middly season player that play with the strongest stuff can absolutly crush a veteran that is playing sort of chill.
Then they get higher and higher, and thé strong stuff become their only way to deal with stronger opponent.
Like, probably that iris and purples would be OK if you couldnt usé them every game but it's so easy to do so that you create a very unhealhty
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I point was not that regression is not healthy. In the contrary, I think it should t be tied to perks. That's why I want to get rid of those and keep thé two that works with winning chases in the base kit. I like your idea for greats giving more progress. It would be so much healthier if that was the only speed up option for survivors.
Hell, maybe even put some harder zone to Land to get an even bigger bonus.
For the last part, like I said in my original post, if the killer is winning FAST chases, he needs to be able to almost stop gen progress because otherwise you get the situation we got RN where a full on focus gen team will always get 1-3 gate escape if the killer don't do a power play by slugging and/or camping.
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Survivors gen time is not hypothetical. It's even kinda underestimated because it's the time it takes for only One survivors to do all gens which never happen. Yes, you have some moments in a game where nobody's doing gens, but there is also moment where 2-3 people are doing them and they occur way more often. Note that I'm always accounting for optimal play from each side in order to get a face value to discuss. In an optimal surv team, there is always someone doing gen because that would be absurd to do smt else. Hell, even healing is not mendatory if you can get a 30s+ chase with only One healthstate.
The killrate stat tells us very few intel on how the game is played. For exemple, I'm a very seasoned killer, if I play at night, I'll find almost exclusively solo players. Then, I can assure you that over ten game, more than half will see someone suiciding or giving up, because gens are so boring to do that, at the first sign they might be doing them for nothing, solos rather go next.
I'm not judging, I do that too when I know my teamates can't handle the pressure a good killer will put. Just run at him and play for the chases because that's the only fun part.
Then I get good teamates that do gens and dont rq and we win nurses by doing 30s chases where we all get hit back to back to back and still get 1-3 out.
So, please, maybe you're New, but don't try to patronize people by using stats that are irelevent to the discussion. It's not a us vs them topic. It's a balance One, where each side get some and lose some for the greater good.
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you yourself make it us vs them. Providing theoretical time on one side and real time on the other side is exactly that.
You create calculations where it turns out survivors finish everything way before killer can even if he 1-hooks. What am I to think about that? When I clearly see that this is not the case for 80% of all the games I play? That your timings are just way off for 80% of all games? That it's not super rare for the game to end in 2 minutes, because that nurse caught 3 people and the 4th one is about to go down? And yet you write something about game ending in 14 minutes compared to 11 minutes for survivor. Sorry but this screams you play way more killer then survivor. And the echo chamber how "precise" and "undisputed" your timings are... The reason why killers got so many buffs, that there are always incentives on survivor side.
Also DC's don't count to stastistics. Yet the games go on. And even after this baked in, killers have higher kill rate then survivors. I hate this echo chamber that yes. Survivors are OP. SWF should be removed from game. All the maps are strictly survivor sided and camp & tunnel is fair and it's all survivor's fault anyway, because on average they complete all their objectives way before killers can do their. So sure enough. Continue with this not so subtle hinting. I am already looking for a new game as is. There are already a lot of survivors who left the game. Just continue and watch your queue times as they rise and rise without an end
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Nobody said anything about what you're implying man. I think you're just kinda frustrated by the game rn. It happens but don't try to brake it for others that tries to think it threw. You clearly didnt read all my post otherwise you won't be using those strawmans and would be answering the suggested changes I treated in the end. Instead you just came here to rent about how everybody wants to get you and how killer are so mean. Idk man grow up, think a little and then come back if you have smt interesting to say.
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Base Gen regression is .25 charges per second
So it'll take 347 seconds to fully regress a Gen
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What's your calculation ? Max 89 charges or 89s/0,25 = 356s to regress at 0
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No... it's 347 seconds
Choy did a video about Gen regression... you should watch it
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Then he did not 99,9% the gen, dbd wiki state it takes 360s to get a 99,9% gen to 0%
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90 charges / 0.25 charges per second = 360 seconds
The wiki ignores the immediate regression of -2.5% that is applied when kicking a gen (a fact the wiki specifically mentions, since the calculation only intends to give a reference to how slow/fast the regression is), but that would still leave 351 seconds until full regression.
Something with your calculation is off in any case.
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Watch the video.... please
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Amazing... I wish BHVR didn't just ignore all this forum....
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No, YOU watch the video, and more carefully this time. None of the generators Choy shows in that video start regressing at the maximum of 99.99%. You can literally see a few charges already missing from each generator's progress bar when the timers start.
Sorry, but you are just wrong on this one. Choy is wrong too and video tests aren't factual just for the sake of them being a video, when the tests are done incorrectly.
Myself and others showed you the correct calculations, yet you repeatedly chose to dismiss them, because you believe some Youtuber who can't even do a simple timer-based test right, is somehow more correct than the very math equation Dead by Daylight uses to calculate gen regression.
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I don't think they straight up ignore it, they did put some forum and streamers ideas into the game, but they are slow to make moves and change things up. They seem to wait for a huge push from the community, either by people stoping to play or when enough rant have been targeted at the same issue. That's what it is, we are stuck with them, they're stuck with us
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Ty for taking the time to educate people. It's crazy how easy it is to make people believe in your False informations when you're a public figure.
In this case, the complete information on how gens work is public and a google search away from him but better trust the youtuber.
Made me realise how ez it his for someone, even with the smallest community and influence, to spread Fake news like gospel, just because some are too lazy to corroborate information.
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Ty for taking the time to educate people. It's crazy how easily false information spread when they're convey by public figures.
In this case, all the information is public and a google search away from anybody but better trust the influencer.
It make you think about how this must translate into the real world where people are taught what to think by biased politicians rather than searching to corroborate information.
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Ok... whatever
Thanks anyway
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