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Suggestion: Map offering priority
Hello BHVR,
for the following suggestion I assume, if a survivor and a killer use a map offering there is a 50%/50% chance to get one of this maps.
I would say some killer builds require specific maps. For example you won't play a scratched mirror Meyers on a big open field. I would also say that more often a killer needs a special map to play on his build then a survivor. Suvivors chose maps mostly because of the win rate and not because of certain perks.
Although this is so important for killers, survivors can easily have a big impact on the selected map, because they can vote 4 times. That can make a killer build totally useless. Some killer may end up in tunneling and camping to compoensate this or even a disconnect.
That's why I think a killer map offering should have the weight as 4 equal survivor map offerings. Let's have a look at some examples.
Example 1:
Killer: Lerys
Survivor 1, 2, 3, 4: Haddonfield
Result: 50% Lerys, 50% Haddonfield
Example 2:
Killer: Lerys
Survivor 1: Haddonfield
Survivor 2, 3, 4: Nothing
Result: 87,5% Lerys, 12,5% Haddonfield
Example 3:
Killer: Lerys
Survivor 1: Haddonfield
Survivor 2: McMillan
Survivor 3, 4: Nothing
Result: 75% Lerys, 12,5% Haddonfield, 12,5% McMillan
Example 4:
Killer: Nothing
Survivor 1: Haddonfield
Survivor 2, 3, 4: Nothing
Result: 100% Haddonfield
Example 5:
Killer: Nothing
Survivor 1, 2, 3, 4: Haddonfield
Result: 100% Haddonfield
Example 6:
Killer: Lerys
Survivor 1, 2, 3, 4: Nothing
Result: 100% Lerys
Example 7:
Killer: Nothing
Survivor 1: Haddonfield
Survivor 2: McMillan
Survivor 3, 4: Nothing
Result: 50% Haddonfield, 50% McMillan
This would be logic in my mind. It's some kind of QoL for killers and maybe also for survivors, if this prevent's tunnling, camping or diconnecting.
Comments
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This would mean killers will get their map practically always. The only possibility this would not be true is 4man SWF (and as devs stated 4-mans are rare compared to solo or 2-mans or even 3-mans).
Also killers already have 61% kill rate. Why do you want to buff stronger role?
Also perks - not true. As a survivor there is just 1 possibility when you pick midwitch - and that is if you want to try out sabotages. For every other build the map is terrible. If you want to take balanced landing, you never ever want to take mc millan as there is 1 map that has 0 BL spots (not counting shack stairs which have 0 usage) and only coal tower & iron works decent main for BL (compared to say the game or RPD). There are multiple instances like this.
As an addition - maps are quite unbalanced. As killers are able to already win 61% in high MMR considering survivors can pick garden or crows maps, what do you think would happen when killers are almost guaranteed to get midwitch or lerys or any other map they create their build for? (e.g. getting the game against some killers/builds is total pain with very little chance to win).
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So, you say survivors bring maps because of winrate and killers bring map just for fun? Not because their build (aka perks and addons) work better (provide higher winrate) on those maps?
Also all solo just will be forced to use reject-any-map-offering offering. Like it's 90% win for killer with one survivor's map offering, either you play every game vs impossible heal skill check doc on midwich or you play vs impossible heal skill check doc anywhere else with at least some chance to get even map. Choice is obvious. Your 90% will mean everything in one case and mean nothing in other.
You can suggest to not stack same offerings (like 4 haddonfield offerings from swf will give same probability as 1 haddonfield so you still will be able to get lerys), but your suggestion is broken. Casino roulette gives more chanses to win a bet than your suggestion gives to both sides.
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Hi thanks for the reponse, I assumed this reaction 🙂.
My suggestion is not for game balancing ☝️. That's a total different thing in my opinion. A mechanic like this must be independent from balancing, otherwise you could overhaul it after every balance patch. So lets assume the maps are balanced.
I play survivor 90% time. So it's not the view from a killer player. And the only exception for balance landing is Shelter Woods. I used Balance Landing a lot and you will find a usage everywhere. And you can sabotage on every map. Of course it's easier on maps where the killer can't see you. But you don't really won't compare a less effective sabotage with a complete build destroyed build 😲. A survivor's build is by far not so independent on a map. I think you can't compare a full build that's ruined vs 4 players where maybe are 2 perks have less usage.
Don't forget you play 4 vs 1. If your build is not perfect there are still 3 other people. For a killer the game can be nearly over at the beginning.
And final, how often does a killer really use a map offering? 🙂 It's already total rare and 90% time it's used for a specific build. There are so many groups outside there. At least a pair of 2 people. Even 2 people can throw the same offering and most of the time they will win. Additionally 4 players have 4 times more offerings then a killer. There is nothing balanced about this, if you compare this equal.
I think the direction of your comment is more that you are afraid that the killers kill tate will increase. But again, balancing is a total differnt thing. Assume the maps are balanced as are prerequisite 🙂.
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It's not rare. I see it every 4th or 5th game. And I practically never see more then 1 survivor map offering so in your case killer will always win.
Also as stated above killer can abuse his build more then survivor, because survivors don't know killer. It makes 0 sense to take heal build against plague - but this is ok. If killer brings his build AND map offering AND see survivors brought their own AND decides to try his luck anyway. Why is this unfair to killer but fair to survivors?
As for balance - we will not get balanced maps any time soon. Making this change would be yet another hard blow to survivors, because it means that killer will have his map 90% of time or 100% if he dodges map offerings. That my friend is unfair. And you can't assume like this. It's not in devs habbit to compensate changes like this (sure there are exceptions like buff/nerf flashlight, but they are exceptions)
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I did not say that ☝️. I said that the killers most of the time throw a map offering because of a specific build.
The survivors throw it pretty often for the win rate and not for the build. There may be some exceptions, but how often does a survivor throw a map because he/she want a better usage of bond? 🤔 Now you will say "Hey in the past the survivors used Balance Landing on Haddonfield'. But there is a difference between "I want a indoor map. I don't care which one, but without my build is unplayable." and "I want Haddonfield, because with Balance Landing I can't loose, because the killer can't catch me.". The last one is more an abuse of balance issue. And even , if you get the wrong map as a survivor the impact is much smaller. I assume you will confirm that.
Most of the time it's all about big maps, strong loops and good spawns. And that's absoloutly ok 🙂. They're are allowed to do this. But it's sad that one offering of a survivor has the same weight like the killer's one where the impact is.much bigger.
A sabotage squat can still throw 4 offerings. That shouldn't be a problem.
And as I answered the person before. Don't forget this is an edge case where the killer and the survivor throw a map offering at the same time. That's pretty rare 🙂.
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I FEEL like if I burn a map-offering while a survivor is doing the same, I automatically lose the "50/50".
It wouldnt surprise me if survivor-offerings have higher chances to spawn, even with only 1 offering.
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>>Assume the maps are balanced as are prerequisite 🙂.
How it it even possible? Like, ok, let's assume maps are generally balanced. Then either you don't need specific map to make your build work OR by choosing specific map you get some sort of advantage.
Then, either this advantage isn't that big (then it's not a big deal if your offering doesn't win) OR the advantage is so huge you really want that specific map. In that second case how could map be balanced if some specific build gives you huge advantage on it? Like let's get wallhack wraith. Doesn't matter how balanced maps are in general, every map with LOTS of walls will give Wraith huge advantage. And ability to use this advantage every game can be balanced by only one way: by making all maps with similar number of walls and positions. Then there's no point in specific offerings.
Doc with impossible skill checks relays on small maps with several floors. Then if 1,2,3,4 maps are small and 2 floors and 5,6,7,8 maps are big and wide those maps clearly aren't balanced in between.
Same with every other map-specific build. If you assume maps are perfectly balanced then there's no map-specific build. And if there ARE map-specific builds then you don't have to get value out of it every single time, it's even more unbalanced.
As for "And final, how often does a killer really use a map offering?". It is rare (not really but ok) because there's nothing to "abuse". If killers know they will win offering battle in most cases (and your suggestion makes it so) then they will use that. Just like now they use camping and tunneling. And just like now sabo swf make sure their map win.
Yeah, so survivors bring maps to win and killers bring maps to use builds (and not to win). If I bring balance landing (for archive or anything) I definitely will bring any map that have more than one drop places like the Game or Saloon. If I use detective hunch or Distortion I will bring 2 floor map to get tokens out of terror easier. If I use boons, maybe I will bring 2floor map either. If I use boil over I will bring map to make sure I can use it everywhere and don't have to abuse one spot in main building like idiot (or don't use it at all). If I have lucky break and bite the bullet I'll make sure I'll bring non open map to make killer loose me easily.
That's just a small portion of survivor builds you can have better use of on some specific maps. And now you decide that some map-specific builds for killers are more important that mine? And that I have to either play swf to beat the bet (and make killer's life miserable) or use rejection (with chance to not get map I needed)? How is it fair?
Then you say "But there is a difference between "I want a indoor map. I don't care which one, but without my build is unplayable." and "I want Haddonfield, because with Balance Landing I can't loose, because the killer can't catch me."
So...there's a difference between "I want open map, I don't care which one, but without it my build will be unplayable" and "I want Midwich because then my TR will cover every corner of it and once I land one hit on everyone I won't be able to loose because of thana and coulorophobia"
And here we are back to balancing. There SHOULDN'T be build that works super good on some specific maps (except meme ones). All builds should be playable and winnable (both for killers and survs) on pretty every map. The fact you can get so huge advantage on one map that you can't handle getting any other map is not an offerings' problem. Let's balance all maps and then you won't be so afraid to play on any of them with every build you want (and won't be so afraid to get some specific offering from survivors).
Untill then survivors will just use reject offering and deny all your priority.
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"Yeah, so survivors bring maps to win and killers bring maps to use builds (and not to win). "
And I also did not say that. Please do not add words I haven't said. I respect that you do not agree. But you still talked about map balance a lot. This topic has nothing to do with balancing.
I play for fun and that does not mean necessary for a 4k as killer, which might be your definition of ia win, if I would guess?!
But you can try to play a scratched mirror myers on a wide open map and where everyone can see you before you can. I bet that's a lot of fun for everyone without bloodlust and nearly no lunge attack. And this is not a meme build. A BK Meyers would be a meme and that is not longer possible.
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From your first post:
I would say some killer builds require specific maps. For example you won't play a scratched mirror Meyers on a big open field. I would also say that more often a killer needs a special map to play on his build then a survivor. Suvivors chose maps mostly because of the win rate and not because of certain perks.
How is that not saying survivors bring maps to win and killers bring maps for builds?
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That's what I said. I did not say killer bring this to win. That's a difference.
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I don't get the difference. The reason a Scratched Mirror Meyers wants an indoor map is to be able to sneak up on people and cut them off in chase. Which also, theoretically, helps them win, right? Sure, they can be doing it for the giggles but it also directly helps that build get more hooks/downs/sacrifices, aka winning.
As someone who was working through the rift yesterday and was trying to get the Balanced Landing challenge done, and ended up getting Shelter Woods twice and Suffocation Pit once, its equally as frustrating on the survivor side and has nothing to do with wanting to win.
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Oh sry, I thought it was clear. My fault 🙂. He added in my quote "(and not to win)". And that's not what I said.
I don't think it just helps to win. It's required for the build in the Meryer's example. It's nearly useless without a good map. That does not mean it's an auto win, but the opposite is maybe true. Getting another map is maybe an auto loose. And the chance to get another map is much higher, if currently your vote is against 2 votes. Getting another map as survivor while you have Balanced Landing is not such a huge thing. It's not that because 1 survivor couldn't use his Balance Landing they will loose the game. The impact in much smaller.
But again, the whole discussion and maybe the excitement is because of the edge case that both partys throw an offering. I already see in this discussion that winning is the most important thing. And the reason to throw a map offering is only to win. Maybe I'm too different 🙁.
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it's about getting fair chance. Devs think that 60% kill rate is fair. For me it's borderline unacceptable. For this reason any additional killer buff is not acceptable. Getting consistently stomped is just no fun.
I would agree that for mirror meyer case he should be able to pick the map. Problem is condemn sadako on midwitch or the game. Problem is legion with anti-pallet build and addons. Problem is nurse or blight that picks mcmillan or autoheaven. Problem is full regression doctor picking saloon and camping his 3gen until survivors DC or sloooowly die... All against 1 meyers build.
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Yeah, I understand the frustration. I'm playing in solo queue and I would say I loose like 80% of the matches 🙁.
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Your suggestion is here because you assume every map is balanced. It's your words. That's why I talk about balancing map. You suggestion should be implemented after all maps are balanced. But if maps are balanced why we even need smth like your suggestion?
Right. Again. I don't put words in your mouth just continue your logic. I'll try to explain.
As I understand, you are trying to say that those map-specific builds have disadvantages on every maps and work NORMAL on only one map. So it's kinda fair to let them get normal gameplay on that one map just like everyone else has on every map.
But that's not true. Some of those builds - maybe. But we also have other builds that work normal on all maps and have HUGE advantage on some specific maps. And that's the reason why those killers want to bring those specific maps.
Yeah, SM Myers can't perform well on wide map, but he can perform ok on Midwich and The Game but a lot of Myers with wallhack tier 1 bring Lerys. And not only lerys, they also bring perks! I just can't agree that all of that is JUST because of build. This game has a goal and every player is trying to achieve it one way or another (otherwise their build should be called meme build, and if they just goof around with no intention to kill they don't really need this specific map). But ok, let's say Myers is one of those "legit" killes whose builds can be bad everywhere except couple maps.
But Impossible skill check Doctor or Starstruck Nurse can perform pretty well on every map but they are significantly stronger on small maps where survivors literally can't avoid key perks. WH Wraith pretty can get value on every map, even huge ones, still small indoor maps with walls or 2 floors give him much more value. RPD with no-boxes-before-gen and everyone-start-with-boxes for pig. Pig definitely get value on every map but RPD put survivors in a huge disadvantage. Now that can be easy "countered" by random offering (not completely countered, only this external value, also you still have pretty valid chances to win your map), that's why it's rare. And you want to make it guaranteed. Can you guess how first minute DC ratio will change? :D
You are trying to defend SM Myers and I bet that after implementation of your suggestion EVERY nurse will be starstruck-awareness-midwich. And wesker definitely can find strong build for his 40m TR. And there will be much more of them because now it's risky so they don't bother to use offerings most of the times or loose them by offering battles but with 50%+ EVERY game - sheeeesh that will be a must have to make games easier. And this won't be fun for survivors.
And - again - after that, all survivors will start to use reject-any-map offering. And all this will be for nothing. Maybe it's better to buff map-specific builds that are too weak rather then buff strong ones? Or rework Shape completely, after all.
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By assuming every map is balanced I just want you to ignore the balancing aspect. I just want to support playstyles. Because I think the chances should be fair. If there is an issue on a map because of balancing that should be fixed in the map and not be provided by different chances in the offerings. That's the wrong direction. That's was what i meant with "assume ever map is balanced". Maybe this wasn't accurate enough. If there are too many loops on a map you would also fix the map and remove loops and not decrease the survivors running speed. That was the idea 🙂.
You know the people dc for everything, if it makes sense or not 😌. I had someone in my team who dced after he realized the killer was a plague although she hadn't injured anyone. It's just "I don't want to play again this killer. I don't care about the others, bye".
I like the aspect that some killers can have different playstyles based in their addons. For me it's more exciting.
I hope the Shape's SM build will stay. It's so much fun to play against 🙂.
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Oh, got it. Then my last point still should be valid. I told more about structure and size.
And yeah, I know people dc for everything, still if it's 10th midwich with nurse starstruck I pretty can puke my frustration out and just insta DC to close the game and don't return untill next update. And I have DCd intentionally like two times only out of my 2k experience. I just can imagine how frustrating could it be, even for me. Of course, maybe, I won't DC, I just will close the game after 9th nurse without even trying to play 10th game. Result is kinda same.
You said yourself "If there are too many loops on a map you would also fix the map and remove loops and not decrease the survivors running speed", so if there's builds that strong rely on maps maybe we should change builds or maps and not decrease survivors' offerings value to band-aid the problem. Wouldn't it be better to be able to play SM Myers comfortably on most random maps and bring Halloween event offering instead of Lerys? Different playstyles still can be different even after you address the problem. Anyway, even if we have different points on how to fix this we have at least one thing in common: I like SM Myers too xD
I like all Myers, he's my main :) I want some love for him from bhvr :ccc at least graphic.
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meyers can't be buffed until tombstone piece is updated. When they fix this (and OK this one is up for debate) and fix also the other (iri) tombstone, then meyers should be on very high priority list of killers that need buff.
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Sure, if there is an idea to make this builds playable on every map, that would be great. And if then finally every map would be balanced the only reason to use an offering would be for fun. This would be the best scenario. I think it's not easy and keep the variety of such builds and make them work on every map 🤔. But hey, maybe some designers have ideas 💪.
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Just to make clear: I didn't mention word "buff" here. Also I told about changes for those specific addons of him with wall hack. They definitely can change those without fixing pieces since those addons can't be used with insta-kills. And can keep wallhack functionality.
As for insta-kills, in my opinion you can't change those two addons without changing everything else. He needs rework. Like completely. No buffs can compensate limitation in using his power, the only limited power in killers roster. Like, yeah, it makes him unique, but I'm sure they can make him unique in other way. If they have contract requirement to make him mori people, they can use Executor mechanic: after some stalking (and two hooks) you can instakill. Or smth like that. I definitely want them to change limitation of stalking, and after that they have to change all addons, especially mori ones. They proved their creativity, and Michael deserves love <3 of course, that's my point of view. Maybe they can just fix insta-kills and buff him. It will work for me either (along with couple new outfits, hahah).
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Let's hope!!! ❤️❤️❤️
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No, I think Map Offerings is the overpowering Offerings in the game and need a nerf; but not the way you propose. It should be reworked so that, instead of being guaranteed 100% increase chance to go to this map; it should instead 100% removed the chance to go to this map in the map pool. It gives Survivors and sometimes killers a unfair advantage as they can send themselves to a map that fits super well for their builds. A killer like Scratch Mirror Myer can take advantage of the Game or Leroy maps, or SWF can send themselves to Cowshed or Any busted map; for their builds for better chance to call out and used the familiar map layout to exploit and abuse against any average killer.
My rework, will ensure that any Map Offering used will make it impossible to be sent to this map; unless they use the canceled offer and ensure that it is in the map pool. If a killer hates CowShed, burn the new improved offering of that map; so they will never see it. If a Survivor doesn't want to deal with a Myers or any strong stealth killers; just burn the Leroy and game Offerings.
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