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What if we got rid of camping?
Just 1 simple change. Make hook timer 120s instead of 60. This way it makes 0 sense for any killer to actually camp as he would very easily get genrushed.
Every killer will need to find their chases in a different way - by going for generators or by actually finding a survivor that decided to go for unhook.
Comments
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According to BHVR camping is an actual strategy.. so I don't think they're going to mess with hook timers at all
I do wish we had a perk that slows the timer by 75% if the killer is within 12 meters of your hook and increases it by 30% if they aren't so it's more of a gamble and it can be seen as balanced to them
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There could be perks for Survivors on a Hook... and that might be one of them
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I talked about this situation in some issues, but it did not receive support.All animations of killers have been reduced, generator times increased.why the hook duration is still the same.killers can easily do other things and get back on the hook very fast.Can easily defend the hook and
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Yes. No wonder camping and especially tunneling is so popular after 6.1. at least if camping was bad idea, it would be much harder to start tunneling.
I am convinced it would be actually healthy for the game. It would reduce unfun interactions and promote engaging ones instead
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120s hook timer is too much. I'd remove unhook grabs from healthy, they are so stupid and extremely unfun when you get grabbed. I also personally don't find it very from as killer either, when you mistime it and don't get the grab it feels bad, the mechanic just feels bad either way. And when I actually do get grabs, which is usually on newer players, it just messes the entire game up since now I get one guy on stage 2 and another free hook.
The only argument against removing unhook grabs from healthy is that it would incentivize late, risky saves since a trade is guaranteed. But if the killer wanted to prevent a save they should have gone and injured someone or applied pressure somehow, not camped the hook. I firmly believe that forcing the killer to go out and injure to prevent rescues would be very good for the game, and removing hook grabs would do just that. Why stay if you know you're gonna get traded on?
That's just the first part though, lots of killers have powers that allow camping. I guess a bandaid solution could be that killer powers don't interrupt unhooks at all, meaning if you manage to start the unhook animation vs a Bubba, you'll always get your unhook even if you get downed for it. And he possibly downs the guy you unhooked immediately after. Oh well.
So in short, remove unhook grabs from healthy, make killer powers not interrupt unhook animation, even if you get downed and you're in the early part of the animation.
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That won't help at all. I agree about removing hook grabs, because it is stupid stalemate of waiting whoever fail the move, multiplied by lag. But besides that, how this helps against Bubba or Huntress?
I still think that proximity to hook should slowdown timer. Another addition is to remove hookprogress from killer HUD, just show stages with ticks. Maybe make a hook timer FASTER when killer not within 40 meters, but slower the closer killer is and completely pause when killer in Kindred range.
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Camping is fine just do gens
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An extra 60s for survivors to sit on gens with no reason to save seems like a really good idea
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It's still 3v1. So if killer applies no pressure, then so be it. If killer does not camp or tunnel, there is actually very good reason you want to save your teammate ASAP. That's efficiency.
Actually, there are 2. If 1 is on hook and nobody rescues, second one gets down - you are now really under pressure to unhook very very quickly - because killer is just 2 downs (and 1 long slug) away from total victory no matter how many hooks or gens are done.
Agreed. If hook stage is long, you are free to camp to your hearts content. Under current situation it's reassurence or killer win (or very late hook), because killer has enough time to fully camp 2 survivors to death before all the gens are done. THAT is not fine. That is huge problem. That is equivalent of permanent hook sabotages that used to be part of the game.
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I like the idea of adding survivor perks that directly counter camping. One that slows hook progress when the killer is close would be good. So would one that increases your chance to escape from the hook when the killer is close. The closer they are, the more chance to escape up to like 90% or something. With counterplay perks to enable counterplay it would become a less-viable strategy and we'd probably see it less.
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Then make Gen times 120 seconds long and don’t have perks and items that cut them down to 45 seconds .
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The idea is to reduce AFK times. Gens and camping are AFK times and 0 engage. If killers need compensation buff after this, then make it in chase things instead of longer generator times
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If you make that long timer, then the survivors will just focus on the generators and will repair them, even if you are chasing one, then two are repairing and do not worry that they will not make it to the second stage.
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No. Improve chase quality making chases more rewarding and less frustrating. Pallets cannot be stronger than killer's powers, they should be an obstacle to get some time.
Camping and tunneling is mostly triggered by huge maps and frustrating gens experiences.
Example :
My gf needed to finish the RPD achievement.
She posted the offering.
I was tired to do this map (20th in a row), I advised to go 4 toolboxes so we were done with the challange.
We did 2 gens before the Killer (pig) could find us. We turned the killer into a tunneler by doing gens. And the killer still lost and let the person go out of frustration.
To address camping and tunneling we should improve the quality of chases. So that killers feel it is worth to drop the hook they are defending. Survivors experiencing frustration with being tunneled or camped can easily find relief by using perks made on purpose. Eventually avoid detection.
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This will never work so long as camping and tunneling is easier and better for your end result. It's just a pipe dream. Also considering current situation and already huge win rate killers have - if we also buff killers that chases will become more rewarding then camping & tunneling is right now + we leave camping and tunneling without any change, then the game is dead. Nobody wants to play the game in which chance to win is 10% (if you are insanely good) or 0.01% (if you are not).
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How can the person on hook "just do gens" though? They're going to depip if they die. This is not "fine" at all
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What if? Then one of the tactics killers can use to get an advantage over actually good survivors will be gone, and since going for hooks is not viable against the strongest SWF teams, killers would have to be buffed in a way that made the 10-12 hooks playstile more viable in high MMR.
Oh, but wait. Know those solo survivor games where the killer destroys everyone even without camping? Well, those would happen even more often. Since the average solo teams aren't very good, they wouldn't need to get camped to get destroyed.
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What if killer's buff was as hard to pull off correctly - same as survivor looping killer perfectly? That would mean only awesome killer would be able to do it and newer killers will no longer be able to actually destroy new players with easy camping
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That is your price of failure.
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Most people who camp don't do it because it makes sense in the moment. As long as camping is the easiest way to guarantee a kill, which after your change it would still be, people will camp. It doesn't require much effort and campers won't care if the timer takes 120 s, 240 s, hell, they'll camp even if the timer was infinite.
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1k is universally considered killer's loosing a game. If he camps for 120s, most of the gens get done. Killer will get his 1 kill (maybe he would be denied even this one if other survivors go for save together) and will think twice about camping the next game.
As I said - there might be a few people that will still go for this 1k, because they can be mad at specific survivor, or want to spoil someone's fun. But majority of killers camp, because it gives them advantage. And there is clear difference if you get 1 bad game out of 20 or (as we have right now) 1 out of 2.
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Yeah if you were killer sure
But how can you "succeed" when you are being tunneled and camped? You also can't pip by just hiding all game and not doing gens
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"1k is universally considered killers losing a game"
Lol mabye if your doing tournament trophy or something
If I get my rancor and my challenge done, that's 100% a win for me
Not all Killers always care about 4ks (though this number is relatively low tbh) and when I do try to get others it's usually because I'm going for unconventional kills (wesker throw, bear trap, etc) or I need sacrifices for my challenge (but even then I only try to kill them with cage instead of hooking)
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Then survivors would have way too much time to do gens in any normal game even in games where camping would not happen.
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Man you guys care about 4ks way too much lol
If a survivor or two or heck even three or more escape, so what? If you accomplished your challenge and what you were trying to do that's really all that should matter
Heck when I'm killer I don't even go for hook kills but I try to kill them in a more fun way like bear traps, wesker throw, chainsaw, etc
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I just want hook grabs removed, its happened so much where I'm running desperate measures the survivor is unhooked and I'm grabbed after its finished LOL. It's like the worst interaction ever.
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Doesn't take away the reason some of us killers prefer to or feel the need to camp.
Which falls on bad map design.
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You can just go up to the hook and exchange keep swapping hook states, if you do this then the killer will lose.
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We have heathy hook grabs. We have insta down killers. We have (and this one is the only fair interaction) proxy campers that hit you before you get to hook and then while you are unhooking before you can finish.
Also I presume you know about Otz's experiment against Hens's group with Bubba and facecamping (when survivors knew beforehand everything and knew what to expect). Considering all this and the result even these insane guys got...
Do you consider winning the game with very little effort if survivors don't bring reassurence fair? If so what about removing half of all hooks from game and saying you can bring agitation/iron grasp to compensate? I mean it's bandaid perk vs bandaid perk right? The example should illustrate the point well.
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Put more effort into avoiding the killer, 4head.
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Hook grabs are not unwinnable (I cant remember the last time I got hook grabbed) and if a killer hits u then you automatically get the save, unless the survivor somehow waits or messes up hugely they should get the exchange (otherwise this would literally mean every killer is basically bubba when camping which is just objectively not true). Bubba is a problem for this and his power should not work at a hook or something since he is the one killer where if you decide to camp then provided he is not stupid, saving will not work.
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Bubba is worst offender. But pinky clown, iri hatchet huntress, trickster in basement/open, arguably billy and ghostface and original pain pinhead.
That's quite a number of killers
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Some of those it is still possible to save against given you do it correctly.
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it being possible is one thing. The other is, that it's super duper hard. And comparatively much easier for killer. Killer just needs to wait it out and not hit a tree or hook. That's it. Not very hard at all
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Yeah you're right I should run wake up, Sole survivor, clairvoyance, and small game instead and locker hop until everyone is dead
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Original pain only causes deep wound tho? It's not instadown
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yes. But anyone going for a rescue will actually farm said survivor. You wait for unhook, you hit unhooked with this addon (to get rid of BT/OTR/DH) and you immediately down him. Now your only enemy can be flashsave (so you take lightborn) and you have guarantee to kill that survivor. You allowed unhook, but not really
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There should be some urgency and tension if a Survivor is on Hook.
Making it too long reduces the urgency to go for the Hook, as Survivors do not need to get to the Hook before they complete objectives.
However, making it too short means the best play is to Facecamp, as Survivors need to get to the Hook before they are able to complete objectives.
Facecamping works because Killers are able to completely deny Survivors from getting an unhook (Power/lloadout dependent) while standing next to it, and because Hook Stages for a single Survivor take less time to chew through than it does for the remaining three Survivors to complete their Objectives.
You're suggesting increasing the Hook timer, which impacts the urgency and tension of unhooking a Survivor, but also doesn't touch on the ceiling of Facecamping lethality.
I'd suggest looking for another lever to tweak, such as the lethality Killers have while standing in front of Hook doing nothing.
Unhooking includes Healthy Grabs, so a Killer can just stand behind the Survivor doing nothing, and still get a pickup.
Unhooking also includes interruptible Unhooks, so a Killer with enough damage output can prevent any Unhook from happening in the first place. (This can be achieved simply from a Killers Power Design, or Perk loadout)
Addressing the above would help address problematic Power design regarding Unhooking as well as making Facecamping less lucrative (as Unhooking will generally be more about Trades rather than getting a grab or a down).
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I don't know how to tell you this but Survivors are literally not designed to be able to single-chase through the entire Trial.
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While I generally agree, there's still a thing about leaving teammate on a hook for artificially prolonged time - it's bad for efficiency reasons.
If killer does NOT camp, you are willingly playing 3v1. If killer downs another survivor, you are getting very close to a territory where killer can outright win the game by very little slugging - meaning it no longer is just problem of efficiency. It's real urgency.
But the main point is, that longer hook timer will totally destroy camping (and by proxy tunneling) strats. Killer will no longer be able to just camp it out or stay very close to hook and let survivors come to him. So sure this is (desired) nerf to killers. This can be also compensation-buffed. I liked the idea to give non-chase (it cancels if chase starts) sprint burst after unhooking to help killer get to the map quicker + maybe really show that one survivor who is most distant from a killer for a very short time just to give some target to killer outside of hook.
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This has to be the most "I'm a survivor main and i demand game to hold my hand" thing i have ever read on these forums
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So removing unfair stuff for killer is totally understandable. But doing the same stuff for survivor is hand holding? What about returning perma sabotaged hooks? Otherwise why should we hand-hold killers?
Camping - especially face camping is the most complained stuff that is still part of the game. For minimal effort you get very good results. And instead of solving it, we recently got buff to this strat in patch 6.1. Why should no-brain go-to tactics that get you kills for no effort and 0 engagement win you games? What's good about such a thing? How hard is it to go to hook and sabo/camp it?
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If you're not going for Hook while the other Survivor is in chase, you're not Unhooking efficiently.
What an increased Hook timer does is increase the potential for hide-and-seek team strats (while a Survivor is Hooked) instead of drawing the Killer into a chase.
More time on Hook means I have less incentive for the Killer to chase me, so I hide, and the Killer has even longer time-between-downs, overall preserving the teams health/hook resources longer, and shifts the meta into less interaction over the same amount of time.
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Face camping brings very good results only vs bad survivors who don't do gens period,, yes its boring for everyone but it's the easiest way to throw a game as killer unless ure camping someone in a 3 gen,, also do you realize that if hook stages take so much longer it's free time to do gens without having to go unhook or are you completely clueless?
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And yet I gave a suggestion that would be DIRECT counter to hiding - by showing survivor for a short time. It was in my compensation buff just now.
From killer main's perspective. Looks like it's not just bad survivors after all
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Outside of a Perk, I would not like Survivor Aura's being shown to the Killer without any time investment involved. Do something like highlighting the Generator with the most progress or having generator Auras show their progress for a duration after a Hook.
And yes, Bubba is the Killer I always have in mind when considering Hook Health. I am not saying that your solution couldn't work, rather that it would require more effort than needed (EG: needing a compensation buff), while leaving some remnants of janky gameplay (Unhook lethality when Killer is face-first into the Survivors' crotch and Instadown/AttackSpeed concerns).
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We are talking about problem that has been here literally for years with many repeated complaints all the time. It needs to be finally solved.
If people will agree to the solution even if it's complicated one - but it would indeed solve it, then the game would instantly become much better.
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Even with deadlock you got plenty of time to finish the remaining gens with a bit of decent looping from the next survivor to go get chased,,A killer that is afk in front of a hook is free gens ,it is that simple ,,And what is that video linked supposed to prove ? ( If that first hooked person hadn't killed themselves on hook all gens would have been done before they died btw )
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That you are wrong and that for minimal effort you can get very high reward with just camping. You can't finish all the gens before you camp out of the game 2 survivors (if someone does not bring and is able to apply reassurence) + you can get 3rd one via NOED.
The video (and the previous one that he mentions in it) is from quite well known high mmr streamer/fog wisperer/killer main. So just "push gens" does not really work considering how much time is required to do so and how short hook stages are.
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I know who Otz is lmao,,,The only thing this video proves is that face camping with instadown killers like Bubba is braindead and unfun,,,Still if that person hadn't killed themselves on that hook it could have been 3 man out ,,,it's right in front of your eyes ,,use them,,Also otz might be a very good killer but his survivor isn't as strong ,,go watch some trully high mmr survivor and see how gens fly if killer face camps and survivors focus on gens :)
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