Vault Speed Changes
Recently it was pointed out that Legion, Myers, Wraith, wesker, and any killer who has modified vault speeds through add-ons or special killer attributes no longer benefit from the vault speed perks.
My only question is... Why? No one was complaining about the meme builds of fire up, bamboozle, and superior anatomy. It was usually funny and very scary to bump into one of these non-meta builds where the killer vaults a window as fast as a survivor. All this has done is remove yet another non-meta but fun option for killer builds. One person pointed out that they'll just start running the same slow down set that every killer does now.
Basically, just saying that these decisions should be reverted, as they provide no benefit to anyone.
Comments
-
It really is confusing. They changed 40 perks to make highly used perks used less and lesser used perks used more and then make perks that had good synergy with a few killer powers not work with those killer powers.
That just limits perk diversity
6 -
Its just not a good change, removing the usage of 3 perks on the only killers who really might use them just means more stuff like slowdown used in their place or stronger killers, its not like wraith, wesker, legion, and myers are all top tier picks and nerfing the fun combinations that make them feel satisfying to play just doesn't make sense
8 -
I agree that these changes should be reverted.
All of these killers don't suddenly become unstoppable if they choose to do a vault build, quite the opposite actually. Usually they are choosing to be weaker by running Fire Up.
All this killer vault speed nerf is lower the variety of builds killers will choose and will lower the already low pick-rate of Fire Up.
9 -
Most importantly... Is whether it says anything about patch notes about that. If they insist on transparency.
0 -
Perks synergizing well with powers is a great thing and we need more of that.
Removing the ability for killers using their powers to not benefit from vault speed perks, despite them going through a vault animation, is terrible. As others have stated, it makes non-meta perks that are already not used as much be used even less as what's the point in having a perk on a killer if it won't benefit them when they want it to in comparison to gen slowdown perks.
All in all, I hope they revert the change and make all killers benefit from vault speed perks when using their powers. The synergy in no way makes them overpowered and it simply is fun to play with.
4 -
Which patch did this? That's incredibly stupid.
1 -
Most recent patch, but it's not in the patch notes. Tatariu made a bug report on it, and apparently they confirmed it was intentional.
4 -
Reverse it right nowwww!
2 -
That makes Legion and MM not really worth playing anymore. Both of those killers were elevated to a usable position with Bamboozle affecting their power.
Why dont we see this same treatment for survivors? Imagine if you could never have more than 10% bonuses to a repair or heal action.
Moreover not putting the changes in the patch notes is very dirty. Why not say you're changing how those perks work unless you hope no one notices?
3 -
Honestly, if killer add-ons invalidate vault speed perks, then medkit add-ons should invalidate healing speed perks
6 -
and toolboxes with with gen repair perks
3 -
As a Myers main, I take this as a headshot from BHVR. I use fire up in almost all my builds because I don't feel like using another boring gen defense perk, and it works perfectly with my playstyle. This change should be reverted for all 4 of those killers, or if they choose to be stubborn and not make it work with killer powers, the perks should work with Myers and Wraith.
Incredibly stupid change.
3 -
It makes no sense, either. Why shouldn't vault speed perks affect these things? A vault is a vault, period. Just because it's a power-based vault does not make it not a vault.
Next you'll be telling me that Coup de Grace shouldn't work with Evil Within 3's extended lunge, or PWYF shouldn't affect Billy's chainsaw movement speed.
2 -
The only perk that was really used was bamboozle. Fire-up is a weak perk with garbage numbers for pallet break and vault speed. Superior anatomy is plagued with cooldowns and survivor activation conditions.
What is confusing? I don't see much more perk variety post patch for killer compare to pre-patch. Most of the killer perk are still low impact. old gen defence was weakened and new generator defence took its place because barely anything for killer is worth running.
0 -
You've clearly not seen someone run the Noclip Myers build then lol. But the fact that the new nerfs remove even that very specific edge case scenario is still reducing perk variety you'll see. 1 less build using those perks is still 1 less time you'll see those perks being used.
1 -
Yeah this needs to be reverted. they keep changing things like this, pallets/doors and blast mine etc. These are things no one wants or asks to be changed and yet they refuse to make soloq better, they refuse to touch nurse things the community is dying too see happen. I could go on but I won't.
BHVR this isn't cool stop it. Stop ruining things that are fun and enjoyable that no one has ever complained about.
4 -
Fire up was actually a good perk on MM. You get lots of pallet pre drops - so kicking faster is good. The faster pick up speed messed with people for the blind (which in all fairness was nerfed too /sigh). The increased vault speed was helpful when in T3 as it could make you gain time for vaulting. Also it is very hard for 99% of survivor mains to recognize that you are using it (knowledge is power in the right hands). They assume brutal because faster kick speed nearly 100% of the time (sometimes they assume lightborn b/c missed blind on pickup).
Bamboozle is definitely better than Fire up overall but the perk actually was useful on Michael as the three things it did were very useful. Nearly instant vaults when in T3 with Bam+ FU were crazy fast.
Superior anatomy was grossly inferior on MM to Bamboozle. But it's very common for us to have two perks that do almost the same thing with slight differences. BBQ and thrilling tremors essentially give you roughly the same information at slightly different time intervals.
The real problem with this nerf is that it nerfs two killers who are near the bottom of the pack.
Also not to burst your bubble and go off topic but Nurse should not really be adjusted unless we nerf SWF too.
0 -
Just make the bamboozle speed (before the nerf) default. Think of it like this, why was it there? Now seriously pause before rage typing and think about it. Why would I want to have a few seconds more to vault a window that blocks itself after I vault it a little faster?
Because the degeneration speed of the blocked window is far too high for the killer and survivor to compete in their chase/loops. As a survivor you hold at a 45-degree angle waiting to see a killer, right? You see it, proceed to go in the opposite direction this takes around 3/4 seconds. Chase continues around say..our shack, by the end of turn 2 and 3 the window will now be unblocked hence making the actual perk useless. THATS what the speed was for. IF the devs want to consolidate the perks then awesome! make that vault base. Otherwise, they just destroyed something BOTH sides had to think outside the box on (should i go one more loop around or run away to a new loop) and promoted mind games and learning.
Look, I know survivor is the cashcow for DBD, we all know it. You want them to be enjoying the game and not be stressed resulting in buying cosmetics and so on. However, by making these changes you're unintentionally showing a bias to a side that to this point needs nothing more than the game to play itself with the training wheels you are providing them. Synergy makes Dbd interesting, we all want it and the more you gut these mechanics for either side the more boring the game will become with no experimentation, make builds truly unique and each player inventing their own style of gameplay. Dbd is NOT an E-sport, stop thinking it is and re-access you goal with the game flow.
0 -
SWF are hardly a problem, 1 out of 10 games maybe if that. You can't nerf SWF without nerfing Soloq and soloq needs buffs not nerfs. So not to burst your bubble but you need to figure out what you can do to improve as a killer, record your games and watch them back. Learn from your mistakes.
2 -
Solo queue is at a disadvantage because SWF exists. Stop with this rhetoric everyone says that SWF is not "bad" for the killer's gameplay. Given a choice of 4 random players with no coms or coordination the killer or SWF the killer will have a better more balanced game vs the 4 random players. You need to realize the killer always plays solo with no help. Killer solo queue is not fun when you are forced to play vs SWF.
Imagine a tournament situation with only strong players where there are two rounds of three games each. In the first round the 16 players all play on their teams. In the second round the teams are all scrambled so that nobody is playing with anyone from their team and they are denied voice communication/perk coordination. You are incorrect if you believe that the second round performance will be superior to the first round performance.
Regular players are not tournament teams but you need to realize that a single voice communication can save 20-40 seconds.That event can happen multiple times per game and comes at zero cost to the SWF team. Imagine what would happen next patch if this appeared in the patch notes : SWF teams are now penalized 20-40 seconds multiple times per game when repairing generators.
SWF can be fairly nerfed with one simple new rule : Inside a SWF there can be no repeats of characters, items, perks or offerings. When the group queues their loadout becomes locked and nothing can change. This would give SWF and advantage option with voice coms but takes away the ability to have multiple copies of items. This in turn would prevent bullying. There is a reason that comp play is generally designed with that rule in mind (the game is unfair otherwise). Add a UI element so that you can see the perks of all players inside a SWF so you know which perks are already taken.
There is no streamer I can watch who plays Nemesis better than I do as far as I am aware. I watch Otz and Truetalent play Nemesis and I see where they make mistakes that I would not make when they play (to be fair their mind games and camera movement around certain terrain is better but that is a reflection that I have not played killer for 7-9k hours). My whip attacks around obstacles are much cleaner and I have far more hits that make people say : that should not have hit (because I listen to streamers I play against who are streaming live). I know the answer to the question when they say : why didn't that tentacle attack hit? I do record my games; You assume I am some pleb who struggles with medium range MMR players. No. I struggle vs players who on average have 6000-10000 hours when I play against them. I regularly get people who are from tournament teams in my lobby (at least thats what their profiles say- they could be impersonators).
After a certain skill level in DBD the solution to getting better at killer is : play a stronger killer. You're more than free to prove me wrong here. Let's use a highly skilled streamer as an example : Hens. He occasionally plays against comp teams in his lobby. About a month or so ago I saw a video form him where he had a near perfect game against a 4 man swf on the Crow map (so much so they accused him of cheating).
You will be called a fool if you think for a moment that he would have won that game if he had been playing Doctor. Nobody cares who The best Doctor player is in the entire world because a mediocre Blight will have much cleaner and easier wins.
There are two killers in the game that can handle SWF teams on every map at every skill level. Those killers are Nurse and Blight. You are deluding yourself if you disagree. The other way of saying this is : SWF is fair when they play against Nurse/Blight (which means SWF is unfair to all other match ups).
0 -
Killers already win most of the time. Do you really want to limit all and any option survivor has? Do you want killers to be able to mindlessly just run at survivor knowing he will catch him no matter what? 0 mindgames and still 100% success rate? Would that even be fun for you? Killer is already much easier then survivor. Why make it mindlessly easy? Without even perk tax.
You got it wrong. As of right now killer and 4-man SWF are equal. If you are only interested in playing in solo, it means you want to win every single time. Even best survivor mains escape at around 50% playing as much for escapes (including most selfish playstyles possible in game when it suits them). On the other hand - these survivor mains (so not like supaalf) can go play killer and win virtually every single game they want to win. Best SWF squads can give them hard time, but if they did not come prepared specifically for this ocasion, they will loose.
SWF and killers are leveled. Wanting to only play against solo means you want to always just win (it's like wanting to have subtle cheats for every game). It's a multiplayer game. You are a problem with your attitude
0 -
All these changes will never let players run variety builds.
1 -
I did a comparison, and it seems Wraith and Myers are not affected by these changes. However, I still think Legion and Wesker should benefit from vault perks in their power if they invest the perk slots for them. It doesn't make them any more oppressive and simply makes for fun builds, so I hope the changes are reverted as they are unnecessary and unwarranted.
0 -
Your statement is coming purely from a survivor bias. If you've played killer you would know it is the most difficult role in the game emphasising time management skills and efficiency. Anyone with more than 10 hours at least as killer can tell you it is by no means " much easier than survivor" I enjoy my difficulty but there comes a point where you have to take a stand against pointless changes that only serve to handicap the other side.
2 -
Oh I play killer 90% of time now. I got tired of loosing almost every game as survivor.
Your statement would have been very true in year 2016. Right now killer is 100% much easier then survivor.
Like sure - it does not apply on every killer in a game. But when I play my wesker, twins, nurse or spirit, I know that odds are greatly in my favor.
0 -
Also soloQ by huge margin is objectively toughest role. Even most cracked players trying very hard to win get out at around 50%. Best killers win exactly 100% of games (530 games in a row now)
0 -
From a maintenance point of view, it's best to sanitize Perks and Powers from one another as to not cause additional testing requirements, or to allow Perks/Powers to be strengthened without needing to follow up on gamebreaking values.
Though I have no idea why Myers no longer gains a Vault benefit from Bamboozle...
Is it only while in T3? Or does he just not get a vault speed boost at all?
0 -
Vault speed perks do benefit Wraith and Myers, but not Legion or Wesker:
1 -
-"You got it wrong. As of right now killer and 4-man SWF are equal"
Nobody who streams dbd professionally as their primary means of income and plays both survivor/killer well agrees with you.
0 -
Thanks for linking the info.
Yeah that makes sense.
Myers/Wraith both augment the standard action input.
Legion/Wesker both have unique action inputs/animations/conditions that would better be left for vault addon augments of their own, rather than appending more conditions to a general Perk.
0 -
What confuses me about this nerf is that Wesker's perk, Superior anatomy, was literally tailored to enhance his Virulent bound vault ability.
In some way, a killer's perks relate to their power, or their lore as far as I know. Like, I understand Wesker is a superhuman but how was that perk NOT specifically made to synergize with virulent bound? There is no way it was just a coincidence that BHVR introduced a new window / pallet vaulting killer that just happens to come with a perk that increases vaulting speed.
That would be like introducing a new killer who uses lockers for their resources like Huntress and Trickster, introducing a new perk that for them that specifically aims to increase locker animation speeds, then disabling the potential stackable bonus speed to refilling their resources, and only applying it to searching lockers for survivors.
Whether or not Myers and Wraith have retained the ability to stack vaulting speed bonuses, it is just really dumb for it to not apply to "special vaults", even more so when like I said, Superior anatomy was most likely made with Virulent bound vaults in mind. Even if it wasn't, perk synergies that play into a specific killer power actions have never been an issue for players.
1 -
I mean Dredge has 2 perks that literally do not work well with his power due to being undetectable in Nightfall.
While a killer's perk should compliment their power in some way, that is not always the case.
0 -
Agreed, it'd be like taking away Iron Maiden from Trickster's and Huntress's reloading speeds. In both vault speed and locker speed situations, it does not make any of the killers synergizing with these perks op and simply makes their power animations more fun to use with increased utility.
1 -
I really can't agree with you on Dredge. Neither Septic touch nor Dissolution have an immediate effect on Nightfall just as Superior anatomy does not give way to Virulent bound being better at infecting, or injuring survivors. Dissolution and Superior aren't meant to enhance the "main" power so much as they are for enhancing their chase abilities. It just so happens that Wesker's power can be used to chase, or to attack. And on that note, Wesker's other perks don't really lean into his power either. In fact, Terminus is basically just NOED without the risk of it being a hex. Along with this, I didn't say a killer's perk NEEDS to complement their power. I just said that perks often play into the character's power, or lore, and to me, it's hard to believe they would introduce Wesker as a vaulting killer, who came with a vaulting perk, that previously enhanced Bound vault and Feral vault, only for it to no longer work on those actions. I will never be convinced that Superior anatomy was not meant to synergize with Bound vault.
0 -
Have you tried to ask Supaalf what he thinks about current nurse? Have you tried to ask Ayrun what he thinks about MDR spirit? Have you even tried to speak to anyone and not just say something that makes 0 sense?
0 -
-Nobody who streams dbd professionally as their primary means of income and plays both survivor/killer well agrees with you.
Next time read the entire statement.
Ayrun is a survivor main. He is a perfect example of someone who only sees one side of the issue. Look at all the people who play both sides well. Where do they think the game is balanced?
Otz - survivor sided
Truetalent - survivor sided
Hens - Survivor sided
Dowsey - survivor sided
Hexy - survivor sided
Bronx - survivor sided
Do yourself a favor. Go watch Hens on Youtube. You can find a game where he plays a near perfect game as Nurse and the 4 man SWF team he was playing accused him of cheating. You can also find a video of his 4 man SWF destroying a comp nurse with high level coordinated play (including lots of clock location call outs).
The existence of those two videos tells me Nurse is "ok" because it is possible to play against it and win.
Thought Experiment:
Take a comp team and put them against any comp killer through all the maps. Do this for each killer except nurse and blight. Then do the same thing again with nurse and blight. What would such an experiment tell us? Nurse and Blight are on a different level and all the rest are vastly inferior. Fundamentally speaking Nurse and Blight don't have "bad maps" in the same way all the other killers do. That is inherently unfair from a design perspective.
Now dial it back. Remove the "only the top 1% aspect". Take a good group of SWF who all understand the game and run the same experiment vs a seasoned killer. Blight and Nurse will dominate compared to the rest. Now repeat the experiment again and instead of SWF and pre planning make the players random. Take away voice coms and see what happens. Kill rates will rise and there will be more hooks; gens overall will take much longer.
It's unthinkable that people are actually going to argue that SWF is fine". I will be the first person in line to ask for Blight/Nurse nerfs after we nerf SWF. We can't ever have a balanced game as long as two killers are S tier and everything else ranges from D to A tier. We also can't have a balanced game when you can play with voice coms and have the exact same MMR as people playing alone.
Thinking about the big Picture - SWF would be a lot more fair if they only played against Nurse/Blight players of their skill level (they would only play vs other killers who "opted in"). Obviously that wouldn't work with the game population. But imagine for a moment if every person linked in a SWF raised linked that player's MMR by 400 points. Further Imagine if a 3 or 4 man squad modified each player by 600 or 800 points respectively. That might be fair for the game we have.
0 -
It's a stealth nerf pure and simple.
The change was made to dial back Wesker. He's not the newest DLC so it's time to nerf the flavor of the month. This is standard business as usual for free to play games (which dbd tries to duplicate despite not being free).
Billy used to be an S tier killer slightly below Nurse. He was nerfed at first by proxy. Maps were designed so that he could not chainsaw from point A to point B without hitting obstacles. And still his kit was eventually obliterated.
They should have just nerfed Wesker. Leave MM/Legion alone as those two killers need all the help they can get.
1 -
Wait what? When was this changed?
0 -
It was mentioned in a recent patch for Wesker, however it seems to be an intentional shadownerf for Legion. Myers and Wraith are unaffected by the changes.
I wish for the changes to be reverted as having perk-power synergy that isn't overly oppresive is great for fun non-meta builds.
0 -
wesker never benefited from vault speed increase perks for the bound vault, he was affected by them on ptb but that was fixed on live
0 -
This was before patch 6.1. patch 6.1 without a doubt helped killers. Now we Also have soloQ which is inherently weaker.
0 -
The 6.0 patch before survivors got 10 seconds of borrowed time was pretty fair to killers with regard to solo queue but it actually made killers weaker against SWF.
The changes to Pop specifically crippled most killers vs SWF. Pop was giving me on average 6-9 instances of massive gen regression per game. Against SWF now they just call out if you chase them off a gen you kicked with Brine and they hyperfocus it. In the past I was regularly kicking a gen mid chase and leaving a survivor working on it. That does not work with overcharge or CoB.
named six big streamers who play both sides and you named one. Scott also stopped playing his main killer so that's not a good example as he had a mini rage quit. He's also a fog whisperer lackey and not allowed to criticize the developers.
This isn't really relevant to the topic that some of the killers that need mega buffs have been nerfed by the vault changes. I wouldn't bother to reply to you except that in so doing I also bump this thread for further attention.
0 -
This is not his tournament. Watch the video. And again - this is more then just I or some streamer thinks (btw otz also thinks hard facecamp with Bubba is lesser evil fun wise then just stream snipe someone's game - should speak volumes about his bias. And he is still very surv sided compared to true). This is best teams gameplay showing balance of the game. Before one patch that everyone but you agrees helped killers.
Showing this video is more proof then your examples. That's also the reason why I didn't even bother with explaining that Ayrun has actually more hours played on killer then survivor or that Hens would actually not outright say the game is surv sided. It's beside the point. Video is much better proof.
0 -
-"btw otz also thinks hard facecamp with Bubba is lesser evil fun wise then just stream snipe someone's game"
I didn't ask for Otz's opinion on stream sniping. But you should be aware he added a random delay within the last week to his streams to prevent people from stream sniping him. And he covers the lobby so it's even harder to tell. So tell me again that stream sniping is a non issue of no concern to Otz even though he gets sniped all the time. He literally mentioned it on today's stream that he specifically did not have "I am playing killer xyz attempting a streak" so that he would not get stream sniped.
Stream sniping isn't against the rules so it's a non issue. As a survivor I feel SWF is an unethical advantage because the game clearly isn't balanced around it. As a killer I will use any allowed means of winning at my disposal. I counter SWF when possible by listening to a live streamer. Try it with a group of your friends. Play one game with their voice coms muted and have them play the next game but undeafen yourself and listen to their coms the next game. It's a night and day difference that ultimately makes the game not fair for 95% of the killer roster.
-"Showing this video is more proof then your examples"
Here are your examples.
Hens and his team destroying a nurse :
Hens and his team vs a 504 win streak nurse over a set of private matches:
Hens accused of cheating vs 4 man swf playing as Nurse (timestamp is 4:15)
Why link these videos? They go to show that Nurse can counter a SWF or the SWF can counter her. SWF is broken. Nurse is broken (blight too). Nerf all of these things to make DBD a better game.
"-I didn't even bother with explaining that Ayrun has actually more hours played on killer then survivor"
So you know when Otz Dowsey and JRM play their hardcore survivor challenge Dowsey and Otz call out the addons the killer uses and then the two survivor mains just say whatever - because they don't know what those call outs mean. That's nearly an almost exact quote from Ayrun in one of the YT clips from the series.
0 -
Streamsnipe - sure it ruins his fun. I never said it's nice. But to say just streamsniping is worse than going to game and facecamping at 5 gens with basement Bubba speaks volumes.
Last time Ayrun explained it. He started as killer main. He wasn't youtuber back then. But actually he has more hours on killers then on survivors, even if he mains survivor for longer time then killers.
Also you can watch his MDR spirit. He streams it from time to time. That stuff is maybe even more nuts then godlike nurse.
Yet another thing - check Scott's video. There are artist players there that do very good too. So now it's not just nurse and blight, but suddenly also artist and spirit.
As for comms vs no comms - my group regularly plays like this. Comms do help, there's no denying it. But it's not unplayable without them (the important thing is, that we know how to play and what to do). Also there's that one aspect you purpusefully always ignore and somehow always overlook, because it does not play to your cards - what is the highest record ever for soloQ escape when tryharding to maximum? I will tell you. It's 34. After literal years of trying to beat this record. So to make it totally clear - you wanting to bring everyone to soloQ level is you wanting to have unfair advantage. Ask all the streamers mentioned, if soloQ (or even duos) are stronger then killers. I presume everyone (but maybe true talent) will tell you soloQ is the toughest role to play in the game. So the one thing most players are playing is the most weak/unfair position in game. And you ask for this to be norm. If this does not show your bias, then I have no idea what is.
0 -
Not only do these nerfs not benefit anyone, they lead to a worse game experience overall. Survivors don't like seeing the same meta perks for killers every game, yet here we are removing synergy with perks that are fun for both sides. Admittedly these perks were not used too often but it was still fun when it happened. Its frustrating to see that the competitive aspect of the game seems to be prioritized over a fun experience.
2 -
It's worse than that. This stealth nerf encourages people to not play Legion or MM who are generally regarded as weak.
Is that what survivors want - to have killers only play Blight and Nurse?
0
