Why Pain Res is Fine while Eruption isn't.
Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance is currently DbD's most popular killer perk with a 25% usage rate. But it's not viewed as problematic or overpowered. Here's why Pain Res is fine:
- Pain Res can't affect a generator that has regressed to 0%.
- The killer has to earn its value.
- They have to down and hook someone on a Scourge Hook to use it. Not every hook they get will cause a Pain Res proc.
- It is dependent on Hook RNG. The killer can get no value from Pain Res if they get really bad Scourge Hook spawns.
- It offers counterplay.
- Survivors can finish the gen before the hook happens.
- Survivors with Saboteur can see the Scourge Hooks and act on that information.
- Survivors can get off the gen before the hook action is completed and negate the scream.
- Note: The regression from Pain Res is still effective despite this counterplay.
- Its "cherry on top" effect effect is weak. It's just a scream and a few seconds of downtime.
- Pain Res has few synergies with other perks and they can be outplayed.
- By negating the scream, survivors can negate its synergy with Dead Man's Switch.
- Even if they run a full carry build they still can't make every hook a Scourge Hook.
- It is not behind a paywall. As an Artist perk it can be acquired through gameplay with no luck involved.
Eruption sees 18% usage rate by killers. Many players, especially SoloQs, harbor a burning hatred for this perk. Here's why Eruption is not fine:
- Even after a generator regresses to 0% it can still be affected by Eruption as a gross stealth "cherry on top."
- Thanks to this, the killer is always correct to kick the gen. There is no "Should I kick this gen or not?" question in the back of their mind. It's just "Must kick gen!"
- Eruption's value is too easily earned.
- If they kick a generator and down a survivor before the generator is completed, they will get value.
- As long as they kick a generator before they get a down, they will almost always get value from Eruption for every down.
- It offers very bad and unbalanced counter play.
- Unless you're on comms with the other survivors it is almost impossible to prevent its incapacitation effect without giving the killer too much value.
- Its "cherry on top" effect effect is too strong.
- Incapacitation is a bad effect for a perk to have. Killers should not have the power to force survivors to do literally nothing when affecting them with an indirect action.
- 25 seconds is an eternity in DbD.
- Its synergies are too strong.
- Other gen kicks perks, especially Call of Brine, synergize far too well with Eruption. They apply immediate/near-immediate regression to the generator to buy time for the killer to get an Eruption proc on the gen.
- Once the regression perks have done their job and took the gen to 0% the gen still remains stealth trapped with Eruption until either the gen gets done or the killer gets a down.
- It is behind a paywall. Unless you got/get lucky in the Shrine of Secrets, you have to spend real money to get Eruption. This is why Eruption is at 18% usage and not up there at 25% with Pain Res.
Usually I end posts like this with questions. This time I don't have any.
Comments
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The killer still has to earn value with Eruption. Kicking a gen and then downing a survivor isn't free. Since you seem to imply that Pain Res is earned and not Eruption.
Personally I think all gen effecting perks should end if the gen is fully regressed. Overcharge shouldn't throw a skillcheck if the gen is fully regressed as well.
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I implied no such thing.
Kicking a gen and downing a survivor is certainly an easier and more consistent task than downing a survivor and carrying them to a Scourge Hook.
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Under the list of why Pain Res is fine you put "the killer has to earn its value" which implies that Eruption isn't fine, because the killer doesn't have to earn its value.
Eruption is easier to earn, but the killer still has to earn it.
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It's such an unbelievably poorly designed perk. Kind of makes me think they buffed it and kept it in the game to entice more RE chapter sales. Surely they can't seriously think it's a healthy perk.
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Good summary. I don't see any complaints about about Pain Res. It is a strong perk that is used a lot, but doesn't feel unfair.
Eruption on the other hand is single-handedly winning games for killers they wouldn't have otherwise won. That's not even an exaggeration.
Even if you know a gen has been kicked you have a few choices as survivor: don't do the gen (lol..), go to a different gen that doesn't need to be done and may contribute to a 3-gen situation, giving up an enormous amount of time (lol), correctly guess when the survivor being chased will go down (lol), or just continue doing the gen and get hit by eruption, losing not only all/most completed progress on the gen, but potential progress for another 30 seconds as well.
It is absolutely absurd that anyone can defend this perk. They truly aren't paying attention to the game while they are playing it if they think Eruption is okay.
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And I also clearly state in Eruption's section that "Eruption's value is to easily earned."
Perhaps it would be more accurate to state that Eruption gets far too much value for the effort it takes to get it to proc, but I'm not going to edit the post. No one is going to take the time to read it all anyway.
It certainly appears to me that you didn't take the time to read the entire OP before accusing me of implying something I clearly did not had you read it all.
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I still firmly believe Pain Res should not cause screaming at all. Yes, I know you can let go of the gen to counter it. It’s still dumb counterplay given that it has the risk of getting a skillcheck (rewarding the killer even more) as you let go and is also partially countered by Blindness (particularly if the killer runs Fearmonger/PR/DMS). It makes the perk artificially stronger than it should be and it doesn’t need it to be good. If a survivor misses Merciless Storm skillchecks because of the extra ones forced by regression from PR, that’s the survivor’s fault and it’s not an overpowered synergy at all.
But that’s a very simple change to make. Eruption is far more problematic and needs more thorough changes, and has way too much synergy with other gen-kicking perks that are also too strong especially when combined. And as a further note, Incapacitated shouldn’t be used in the manner Eruption uses it. It’s really only okay for Twins and Pinhead. It’s not okay to just be unable to do anything for a period of time with no way to end the effect other than waiting out a timer. It’s bad design. Eruption should block affected gens for 10-12 seconds or so and remove the scream effect, it doesn’t also need information to still be a good slowdown perk.
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Eruption does demand effort from the killer. Oftentimes you might have to leave a chase, kick a gen, find the survivor, and down them. It's a bit of comparing apples with pears, Pain Res hooks sometimes have bad RNG, but that's still not always the case. Aside from that it once again synergises with DMS, so for the survivors the amount of time you're not able to do the gens doesn't differ all that much.
That being said, I think that Eruption would be fine if the incapacitated status effect only applied to not being able to do gens! Survivors could still heal/unhook/break totems etcetera. Additionally, it shouldn't synergise with other gen regression perks. Although IMO all gen regression perks shouldn't synergise with one another.
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Changing it that way would make the perk quite useless. No killer would pick a 10 second Eruption over PR, DMS, heck even Thana, Pentimento or Ruin would be a better option, but in the current meta it still wouldn't make a dent in stopping from getting gen-rushed.
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The 2 changes that Eruption needs in my opinon is decreased time of Incapacitated status effect from 25sec to 7sec and to off set this we buff amount of gen regression it gives from 10% to 15%.
This way perk is not very annoying to face yet killer gets a good reward for downing a survivor.
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It's not comparing apples to pears at all. It's comparing the 2 most popular killer perks currently in the game with each other and they are both regression perks. It's like comparing Red Delicious apples to Granny Smith apples.
The PR/DMS synergy is so easily outplayed once the survivors know the killer has it and that takes 2 perk slots. With Eruption the killer gets better value from just one perk slot and the counterplay is awful.
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We both know that given the choice, everyone would choose Granny Smiths ;P
Eruption forms quite an issue for SoloQ, but for SWF's it still doesn't do all that much, considering they can just go "I'm about to go down", and all others can let go of their gens.
I'm curious tho, you went out of your way to point out everything that's wrong with it, but what change do you think would make it better?
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If they choose to leave incapatitation in then:
- Make it so if a generator hits 0% it stops being affected by Eruption.
- Make it 15 seconds of Incapacitation.
- Make it 15% (or even 20%) regression. (Or same as Pop Goes the Weasel)
- If a survivor is incapacitated there should be a way to tell, like they have a different posture.
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PR is still a good perk.
Eruption is...a good perk, but I'd hesitate to call it OP.
This game, like it or not, cannot be balanced around both solos and SWFs. And BHVR, since the rework, seem to be aiming balance at the SWF/killer matchup. Which I think is the most fair way to go about it.
That said, running perks like Empathy can allow you to pretty reliably counter it by letting go at the right time.
An 18% pick rate isn't evidence of anything besides 'this is what the meta is right now'. It's not like Dead Hard, which was something like 80% at higher MMRs. 18% means 'this fits into the game well, as it is played now'.
If you nerf Eruption, then it'll be whatever the next thing is at 18%. And then people will complain about it.
That all said, about the only thing I'd change is removing Eruption if the gen hits 0%. That is all.
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With any regression perk, there will always be complaints about it. Back then it was PGTW, Which only effected one generator mind you, and you had to kick a gen within 45 seconds. Curiously though, Eruption still did it's effects before the meta shake up, though at a lower incapacitate duration, yet you heard no complaints about it pre meta shake up, you only now hear about it because it's essentially taken PGTW's place.
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Now imagine the usage if it wasn't behind a paywall.
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It's funny how many suggestions about nerfing eruption's timer want to make it worse than the pre-buff eruption.
(I'm also not sure PR is fine; it has better regression than Jolt, but it's now finicky to activate, has limited uses per-match, and is most likely to only add ~10s to the gen that's already being worked on, which often barely covers getting to said gen if you know where it is. I feel like it's only used that much because the number of consistent options has steadily been whittled down.)
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Good summary. I will never understand how Eruption was internally tested at its current values and the devs thought "Oh yeah this is healthy and fun". It's mindblowing.
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It’s not just 10 seconds, it would still have the regression too which takes at minimum 9 more seconds to make up, longer if the gen is left alone for a bit and continues to regress.
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Bingo.
There are, and have been perks/items that are completely, brokenly OP or just so unfun to play against that they may as well have been (prenerf OoO, DH, post buff Thana and BO, keys, moris) but with a few minor outliers, this game isn't bad balance wise now.
I'd much rather see bad perks be improved or reworked at this point.
PR was good because of the way it synergized with DMS and because it gave info. It's still very good with DMS, and pretty mediocre without due to the removal of the info aspect. I still use it on slower/setup killers as I need the time, but exclusively with DMS.
Right now though, we're back in a kicky meta. And that's fine. People complained endlessly about PR too back when it was meta.
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Yeah, the DMS reliance to get value out of it is why I don't use it; haven't gotten around to doing Deathslinger yet.
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Every single game I’ve played today (7 total) the killers have had Eruption/Call of Brine/Overcharge and Nowhere to Hide/Jolt. Those matches have had almost 0 chase. The killer identifies a 3 Gen, and can just lock it down without even playing, just randomly getting hits, and running back to guard duty. Every game has lasted upwards of 30 minutes or more, with one game lasting almost an hour. I have dumped all other builds for a build I now use almost every match. Sole Survivor/Wake Up/Left Behind, then maybe an exhaustion perk, but really there isn’t a reason for an exhaustion perk because there aren’t any chases. Worst games ever. Hopefully they nerf that crap gameplay like they did Thana when they buffed it to much.
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"empathy can allow you to reliably counter it"
No need to lie.
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both perks require a down. As a result, both perks are earned.
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Your 4th point is a big one for me. Sometimes you're just standing around and it looks like your throwing, since your team has no way of knowing that you are incapacitated. Put some big goofy handcuffs on my character, anything to make it obvious what is happening.
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It absolutely can. I run Empathy, and unless you're against an instadown killer, you can generally judge it from Emp. Usually, I'll let go about 5 seconds after the first hit and watch what they are doing.
You mean...basically remove the perk from the game?
That's not a good way to fix anything.
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Did you comment on the wrong post?
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No. I suggested running Empathy as a possible way to outsmart Eruption in solo (it's what I do) in response to a guy who called me a liar for suggesting it.
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No I mean you quoted something I said in your response, I think you meant to quote someone else. I had no dogs in your empathy conversation
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Oh. No, you said they need to nerf it like Thana.
Thana is exactly how things should not be nerfed. It's awful now.
If a nerf is needed, it should be small and targeted, not 'now this perk is useless on any killer that isn't Legion, and even then it's not good'.
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Eruption nerf once the newest licensed killer /w gen regression perks comes
Also 4% Thana was the best one since it worked on healspeed as well.
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its the only gen regression perk that wasn't nerfed along with pain res, ruin and noed
perks which punished genrushing
look, bite me but survivors got used to the game being easy for 6 years now that need to actually avoid or do something they don't like it
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The game can easily be balanced around SoloQs and SWFs. They could give SoloQs some information that they wouldn't give to SWFs. Saying it can't be done is patently false. BHVR just chooses not to and leaves SoloQs to fend for themselves, lost and alone.
I run Bond as a SoloQ and even seeing the chased survivor's aura is not a significant help. Even if a survivor is staying off the gen to try to counter Eruption, the killer is still getting a disgusting amount of value from it. That's why I don't hesitate to call it OP, because every form of counterplay it has is awful.
An 18% doesn't mean 'this fits into the game well.' There are ~100 killer perks so seeing a perk in 1 in every 5 or games is way higher than the 1 in ~25 game average across all killer perks.
I want to see the game actually be balanced and not just have them change the meta.
I don't know how you can defend this new meta.
It's not that survivor is harder than it was before 6.1.0, it's that it's just not fun or interactive. The least fun aspects of DbD (hook-camping, tunneling and 3genning) have been made even more prominent while the most fun aspects of DbD (chases, interactions with other players) have been made less prominent.
Survivors are doing something. They are choosing not to play DbD.
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We have reached peak survivor entitlement when losing distance or a chase to stop and kick a gen, then getting into a new chase, going through all the mindgames/pallets/baits involved, and downing a survivor no longer counts as earning it.
Just... wow.
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When a killer can kick a gen, have it regress to zero, have a survivor start working on it, have another survivor juice them for a 90 second chase before finally getting the down and still have Eruption proc on that gen...
No, that doesn't count as earning it.
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The only issue I see with Eruption is the Incapacitated status. The 25 seconds is just way too long. If it was closer to 10 or 15 seconds it might not be too bad.
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Pain res is fine because it is predictable and causes 13.5 seconds of regression and hits a single generator.
Eruption is not fine because it is not predictable and provides 10% (9 seconds) of instant regression, 24 seconds of incapacitated that could have turned into 24 seconds or 26.666% of a gen and the gen regresses for that 24 seconds which makes it lose another 6 seconds of progress (6.666%)
That totals up to about 39 seconds of wasted time for every single affected generator.
Frankly a generator that is hit by eruption and doesn't have a survivor working on it isn't going to fair a whole lot better most of the time. It usually doesn't have someone to stop it from regressing now that it exploded and is going to keep regressing. It probably also didn't have someone to stop it from regressing when he first kicked it so it regressed for longer then too, since most survivors wont just tap a gen then go to a different gen.
The 24 seconds incapacitated effect should change to a 15 second gen block. That way it doesn't regress for the time it is blocked (but will regress after it unblocks)
That would bring it to 9 seconds lost directly, then prevent new progress compltely even against SWF who can counter the scream for another 15 seconds. Resulting in consistent 21 seconds progress loss per affected gen. Still has synergy with kicking perks. Still one of the best slowdowns. Still stronger than pop goes the weasel ever was even at its peak since it provides 1 additional second of wasted time and also affects multiple gens.
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I got hit by Eruption 3 times in my last match... so for a minute and a 1/4 I literally could not do anything as part of an uncoordinated random solo lobby. Anyone claiming this is fair cant really understand how important a minute can be in DBD...
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I love how you left out the part in that scenario you just painted that is massively survivor sided as it meant two other survivors just completed two gens in those 90 seconds.
Yeah, what a busted perk. /s
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If a gen gets kicked and reaches 0%, Eruption should no longer affect it.
That's busted.
Anyway, thank you for helping to keep this thread near the top of the page. Any and all assistance in helping get Eruption changed ASAP is truly appreciated.
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I'm running Eruption every game now
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Eruption isn't that powerful lol if someone can make use out of any perk it's OP in this game
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How is it not powerful?
There is no way to counter it for solo survivors and it can make it so you literally cannot play the game for over a minute at a time if you get hit with it several times a match as I always am on a gen if not being chased. No perk in the game other than Eruption makes others unable to do anything
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This thread is filled with killers relying on Eruption for wins they don’t deserve. Of course they don’t want it to be nerfed.
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You can't get hit with multiple times unless you're not doing anything, it's on a cool down if someone is being chased you should be on the Gen there's literally better perks other than eruption that locks up the Gen, I'm not sure why you guys are going after eruption so hard ,I think you all just want to feel some power at this point man just need all the perks we have,we don't need to have a shot at winning as where survivors can waste your time in chases, flashlight stuns boiled over with break out ,sabo box to win but killers aren't allowed to have a perk that stops you only for 25 seconds ? Wow well they bots now soon they want even need killers and survivors can just play against AI trapper.
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It isn't just 25 seconds though, it is multiple times every match and as solo survivor you have no counter to it. If you are on the gens trying to help your random team mates you get punished and it is more than a minute at time every match.
Killers are winning entirely because of one perk and it is an absolute joke. I play both sides btw and am Iri 1 for both killer and survivor so it isn't like I don't understand gens can go fast. But Eruption is broken and unfair
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Trust me after the devs end up nerfing eruption to the ground as they did with thana the baby survivors will go after pain res next. The reality of things is survivors hate any type of gen slowdown no matter what the perk is. All they want is to pick the pick map, bring their broken items with broken add-ons, gen rush, and t-bag the killer at the gates and say gg ez in the chat afterward. The problem is if they got their way it would just create more nurse and blight mains since nurse is like the only killer in the game that doesn't have to run any type of gen slowdown or regression perks. She can easily get around and down ppl fast enough to keep up with BNP toolboxes and hyperforce builds.
I truly believe dbd community doesn't really want game balance, They want to be the side that wins all the time. That goes for killers and survivor mains.
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Nobody rational has a problem with Pain Res, it is easy to counter and still gives regression to a killer.
The problem with Eruption, as stated many times, is that it is punishing solo queue and has no counter play.
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Yes and I understand that. My thing is there isn't a time survivors don't complain about slowdown perks. Before Eruption's buff ppl complain about pain res, and ruin, and after eruption nerfed they will go back to complaining about pain res or some other slowdown perk. I do think Eruption needs a rework but not a nerf. If yall keep crying for a nerf all the dev will do is nerf it like thana and make it completely useless. Instead how about yall ask for a rework and make it still useful and not useless?
Imo I would do one of two things to Eruption. One: nerf the incap timer back down to 15sec but buff the dam it does to the gen when it goes off. Two: Remove the incap altogether and replace it with a gift of pain-like effect where the survivors who were working on the gen is affected with a repair debuff so they can continue to work on gens but at a much slower rate.
As I said tho no matter what the devs decide to do to the perk it's not going to make ppl happy. They just move on to the next slowdown perk they want to be nerfed till there isn't any good perks left in the game for killers to use.
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Sure, I get that people will complain about anything and everything and that will no doubt continue.
But this is completely valid and personally I do not think a status like Incapacitated should exist other than perhaps when Victor is on a survivor or they are at tier 3 madness.
Either way it will get nerfed but sadly I doubt that will happen until next year after the xmas season. So the perk will be winning killers matches they otherwise would probably lose.
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