Bring back the pre-nerf DS/DH and BOIL OVER
The rise in tunnelling/camping proved the 3 perks were heavily effective at stopping this horrible playstyle from killers
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How about no? DH had no counters, Boil Over was obnoxious (and still is to some extend) and old DS was one of the worst balanced perks in the game's history, only rivaled by the likes of old DH.
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And?
There are NO counters to a good nurse, you see dev's implementing any changes to her? No.
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DS? If you mean pre 6.1.0, then maybe.
DH? Absolutely not.
Boil Over? Under no circumstances should that abomination of god return.
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Those old perks in their older states were almost exlusively used to abuse situations
Instead, actual anti-camp perks like Guardian should be buffed.,
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And those perks would not save you a bit against a nurse you can't counter without them. But do you actually know there are other killer then nurse in this game?
I love how people like you want busted perks back and try to defend that quite insane demand with "OH but nurs iS bUsTeD" yeah she is that's a whole other problem you don't want them back to fight nurse you want them back to bullie weaker killers with it and you don't have the spine to atleast be honest
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Dead hard is a difficult case, while it is a completely useless perk against good killers, it's really strong in average and below average MMR, it shouldn't be buffed, maybe reworked again.
Boil over is another complex case, while it deserves to be buffed on PC, it would be overpowered on console. I'm not sure if it is something that could be fixed.
DS, however, shouldn't just be made at 5 seconds, it also needs to be baseline. It's ridiculous how the state of the game right now is that any killer car revert a game they're clearly getting stomped to an easy win just by tunneling one survivor. It can't just be a perk, we need the basis of the game to be that a killer should vary their hook stages, and win a game through actually getting hook stages, rather than winning with a total of 5/6 hooks.
It isn't possible to design an asymetric game without any built in mechanic preventing tunneling, as tunneling will always be the natural best way to win.
However, DS should stay deactivated in the end game. Taking the only kill you can take is not tunneling.
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Couldn't of said it better myself.
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I'm going to disagree on some accounts.
DH is absolutely good against good killers. It's one of the best perks in the game, period, if you're against a Nurse or a Blight. The ability to tank a hit and essentially have an extra health state is invaluable. Even against a standard M1, the time they're staring at your back is time the chase is being prolonged. If DH into a pallet, there's literally nothing they can do.
Boil Over is just annoying. The strafing, I mean. I hope we're on the same page that reverting the wiggle on a drop nerf would be horrible.
5 sec DS at base would just be ridiculous. Trapper would be SoL because you can disarm his traps with impunity, and you can't make it a conspicuous action because of basement Trapper. You could solve Cenobite's box and avoid any possible repercussions. You can swarm a surv with a flashlight because, again, safety. You can also bodyblock for your teammates, especially if you're also using OtR meaning you have double protection.
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Well considering i've had JUST the nurse alone in 1/3 games out of ALL games played today it's very justifiable. And yes, it actually would help because pre-nerf I did stand a chance against the nurse.
What do you mean "I don't have the spine to be honest"? Have you SEEN the state of the game right now?? It's kill fest season with hardly any counters against killers. How can a killer camp a hook and get 4 +2's yet for a survivor they have to shead an arm and a limb just to get +2 in all categories?
Against PC killers Boil Over has 0 effect at all and unless you've got at least 1 survivor helping you get off the grasp of the killer (even with boil over) you still have no chance at all. It feels like it has the same chance of getting off the hook without using deliverance, which again makes it a useless perk in its current state.
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it is when you target the same person all game and thats why you can only get that one kill
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I'm going to stop you right there for a moment.
You explicitly said, "for PC killers." The whole reason Boil Over's staffing effect got nerfed was because it was extremely difficult for console players, especially on indoor maps. There are other platforms.
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So it should be kept the same for console but toned up for PC because it doesnt affect PC players.
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If they buff basekit killer some more, and make less about kills and more on hooks, and find some incentive rewards such as basekit massive regression/gen slowdown without the need of those perks. Then killers can focus less on tunnelling, camping, and killing in the most efficient (and toxic, to many Survivors main) way, and more on changing targets and going for multiple chases and different hooks.
The sad reality of the state of the game, more then half the killer rooster is not strong, fast, or even powers that are good/fun enough to compete with the likes of Nurse, Spirit, Wesker, etc.
If you hate camping and tunnelling so much, why focus less on buffing busted perks and more on buffing Killer's in general, so they aren't forced to tunnel and camp in order to win.
And Don't used the "60% kill rate" as a argument winning complaint, we all know it and sort of a invalid statement that doesn't truly show the true reflection of skill and strength of Killer's in high rank. It is quite clear, solo que vs swf is busted and those statistics are keeping track of kill counts. I want hook counts per Killer on average game, and will know the strength of killers
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The worst part is that you include DH into this and you know it was only used for getting distance without any Form of counter. You think you need it to counter nurse fair enough nurs is Bs I already acknowledged that but there are still other killer then nurse do you think it's fair for them to face busted perks because nurse is busted?
Or do you think then bhvr should buff every killer to nurse level? Advocate for fair nurse changes that make her more fair but don't destroy her that way everyone will support your ideas except Stück up nurse onetricks but that's them. If you want busted perks because of nurse every killer that plays the weaker ones will be against it and feel attacked because that's what you do
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While DH stays relevant against blight, and on a very smaller extent to Nurse (and maybe Oni, kind of, depending if the few seconds you can save help reach a safe spot), it's the worst exhaustion perk in the game against a good killer, because while its effect is invaluable, it will not have that effect against high MMR killers. It's really too simple to just wait it out.
Yes, there are rare situations where it is unavoidable: When you needed exactly 0.5 seconds or less to reach a pallet, and when you guess the exact timing the killer hits you after being chased for a few seconds. (Obviously if a killer is in melee range for 5 seconds and you decide to DH, there is a non 0 chances he decided to hit exactly at that timing)
As for Boil over, I think the wiggle drop is fine where it is. The Wiggle increase is absolutely trash on PC, and I think okay on console. I believe it's a perk that has to be either trash on PC or OP on console, the fact there are console (and PC pad) players just mean the perk has to stay where it is.
As for DS... it really has to be baseline 5 seconds no matter how you see it become a problem. Really. I don't see the game lasting more than two more years top in that non-DS state. If there are problems coming out of it, it's always possible to fix them, but you can't expect an asymetrical game to be fun if one side have a joker card they can use anytime to steal a game. It's as if in the middle of the map there was an interuptor and clicking it kills all survivors. It's just ridiculous.
Now, it's perfectly possible to make DS its own restriction: Taking ANY action other than Walking, crouching and sprinting deactivates DS. No item use, no killer item, nothing.
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As we saw during patch 6.1, it will only increase camping and tunneling. During first few days, I think average kill rate was about 90% (few days after patch only, it got better week after it). Yet I never saw that much camping and tunneling ever again or before it. Buffing killers will absolutely not help. It was tried. Didn't work.
Also 60% kill rate is very relevant. And it's 61% in high MMR instead of 59% in average. So no - high mmr killers are even (marginally) stronger now, then other elos.
Also:
Just a note. Scott plays both sides about the same. Slightly more killer to be precise...
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Hahaha. No.
DS was fine.
DH was broken.
Boil Over was so spectacularly broken that it didn't just win games, it allowed survivors to stall games out forever by becoming unsluggable and unhookable.
Unfortunately, Nurse is a weird case where her gross kill rate is ridiculously low, meaning that - while she's overpowering in the hands of an expert - she's hot garbage in the hands of most other people.
I'm not a fan of this, but it's a different discussion. Short answer: she needs a rework, but the game isn't balanced around one outlier killer.
No. Boil Over allowed people to be completely unhookable on some maps (IWOM, Eyrie). Due to the way falling worked with it, you simply couldn't get a survivor to a hook if they went down in the wrong spot. So what people did was equip No Mither and basically just stand there all game, forcing you to slug camp them.
It was like playing against a lag switcher.
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Do you think Kinship should apply to the killer as well? Kinship should have an icon like PT, Leader, Aftercare, etc. to let others know you have it
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Sure, and we get og nurse, og moris and og ruin
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Abuses back? Hell no!
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The rise in tunneling and camping really was more of the nerf to BBQ and DS
Decisive strike is the only one that should be 5 seconds like before and/or usable multiple times but still disabled in endgame
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Because the argument here is clear that it's got nothing to do with if a killer is broken or not, it's to do with the mindset of a killer and also how killer points are awarded in general. How am I able to tunnel 1 person and get - points for hook camping and STILL get +2 at the end of the game? THATS the issue.
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After creating the post I was salty after getting tunnelled for 3 days straight but after some time off the game this is the correct conclusion for the three perks.
DS does need to go back to how it was
DH is honestly fine how it is now with a 50/50 chance, mindgames still work with it.
Boil over DOES need to be buffed against PC killers, it has ZERO effect on wiggling against PC players and can be seen clearly in any one of my streams (as they still walk in a straight line without wiggling), or anyone else's stream who plays against PC players for that matter. It is still fairly effective against console players but still needs a slight buff (I've had ZERO issues still hooking people who had boil over, apart from one or two on the off chance that I couldn't find a hook).
I think your opinion for the Nurse is semi flawed, Why?
Well, because I'm trash as nurse too but there's also been times where I've missed say one or two blinks the entire game and took down everyone first try, lower MMR nurse is very OP, Higher MMR she is completely broken. I think the only thing that needs nerfing for her is her blink ability, at least make it so she's unable to turn once she blinks for the first time, or at least make it so her second blink can only traverse her 10% of her first blinks distance.
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This post has nothing to do with other perks, please keep it relevant to my original topic.
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The nerf to BBQ was heavily needed though, it meant killers now started to use different perks, but we're almost starting to see the main 4 perk killer meta soon. I've already noticed 2 main perks. (Not going to speak about them here to slow the meta progress down)
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+1 on Old Dead Hard. New Dead hard is way stronger and I much prefer the old one.
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Nurse has the lowest gross kill rate in the game.
Why do you think that is, if lower MMR Nurse is brokenly OP? She just needs a top down rework.
DS - no argument here. I go out of my way not to tunnel, so it really doesn't bother me. Just disable it in endgame, which can feel very unfair when it turns a bad loss into a complete blowout 4o.
DH - is fine. Actually still very strong at higher MMRs.
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"The lowest gross kill rate" isn't really an argument useable here when she is a starter killer, so ofc shes going to have a low kill rate, she is still broken.
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Whats more important: reducing tunneling and camping by rewarding not to do so or just perk variety?
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Weird question, they can both be answered by buffing the aforementioned perks.
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Bringing back problematic perks doesn't fix tunnelling as an issue. For one thing, survivors shouldn't have to bring perks to counter flaws in game design. Also, dh and boil over weren't used to counter tunnelling, they were unbalanced perks that could be abused in the hands of knowledgeable survivors.
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Well one thing is clear for sure, with these perks in their previous state a killer tunnelling a survivor would be severely punished. Without the perks in their previous state the game feels horrible atm due to it.
I was effectively able to counter a tunnelling killer with boil over to the point where he would either focus me and waste precious time or he would come back for me at a later time in the match. It was very effective.
Post edited by MoNosEmpire on1 -
How is DS the worst balanced? It could literally be avoided by not hooking someone twice.. yeah it was a bit cheesy when they got away for free during EGC but now it's just useless
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I think adjusting the perks to be a bit better would be a better change.
- Dead Hard needs the 0.2 second start up animation (but no Endurance effect) to be removed because it feels bad to get hit through Dead Hard because you timed it too well.
- DS needs to have it's animation fixed so you instantly get off the Killer's back instead of going through all of that animation stuff. Maybe it can also give Haste as well to provide the same distance but not be a 5 second stun since 5 second stuns are absurd. (I dont really tunnel so this does not affect me anyways.)
- Boil Over can maybe show all survivors the aura of nearby hooks and the Killer to other Survivors, so maybe Survivors will be more likely to take hits so you can wiggle off. Boil Over is annoying, like really annoying, but it doesnt make the perk too strong, and still fits it's gimmick.
This is also ignoring the fact that ya know, tunneling will never actually go away unless the game directly changes it. Perks just bandaid the issue.
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Old DS could be used anytime, even on your first down, and had no timer.
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I agree with some people here, the new DH is much more broken and unbalanced than the old one. Not only do you get one stage of health in theory, but also a boost in speed, the old version of deadhard saved the survivor from a hit, but the survivor did not run far anywhere, if he was in a dead zone, then he fell.
DS needs to be improved in terms of losing power or imposing the effect of the impossibility of using powers for 3-5 seconds.
Boil Over? What is old and what is new is countered by leaving a survivor on the ground, if you want to die 4 minutes on the ground in my matches, then please. Just don't whine about the slug game.
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Do you mean OG DS? Old DS was actually helpful and old DS had neither of what you mentioned? You had to he hooked first and it had a timer as well
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Only thing that should be considered is reverting the stun time on DS back to 5 seconds, everything else should remain the same. Dead Hard is still strong despite the nerfs & Boil Over was only used to abuse camping in spots where it's impossible to hook someone. Neither of those perks deserve buffs.
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Old DS was just broken mate, its considered one of the worst balanced perks in the games history, next to old DH.
It was so bad that it was used on all games, often by all survivors.
In no way should it be brough back.
Even previous DS had issues, such has not being deactivated by touching stuff like gens, or how it stunned for 5 secs, which was only the case due to Enduring affecting it, later becoming the reason it got nerfed back to 3 secs when Enduring became pallet only, or how it basically guaranteed a free escape if it was saved for the endgame.
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DH is still good against strong killers.
Is it easy to use? No.
But it is great.
As for Nurse...she basicly limits devs im terms of perk design so i say yea she needs a rework.
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Hardly anyone plays as her because they get bored of everyone DCing as soon as they realise it's her?
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Plenty of people play as her, and the stats provided exclude DC games.
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I never see her. I've played against her about two or three times in as many months. I seem to get endless streams of Huntresses and Weskers
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You never see nurse? Huh. Wish I could say the same.
Her, Huntress, Wesker and Blight make up the vast majority of my games at present. Occasionally the odd Nemesis, Myers, Bubba or Slinger.
Barely ever see Artist, Hag or Cenobite.
Do see a weird amount of Clown at present.
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DH and Boil over, quick no. DH is fine if the connection is good, and boil over should never be back to what it was, that perk needs to stay trash for the health of the game or just a complete rework.
DS, either give the stun a buff or give the survivor haste effect after the stun, or just make it usable more than once per match. One of these changes would be fine.
Off the record is just not a good counter to tunneling
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No, hardly ever. From recent experience, I would say my most commonly experienced killers (in no real order - just memory) are: Wesker, Huntress, Nemesis, Blight and Knight at the moment. I'm seeing a few more Tricksters and Plagues too but loads of other killers just never seem to come into my rotation.
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I'm not saying it should be brought back entirely, the deactivating during EGC was fine on its own, it didn't need to be nerfed into uselessness by making it only 2 seconds (animation takes 1 second)
Why would anybody run DS outside of a stun challenge or just meme?
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I like how you didn't even mention trapper, Twins, onryo, or Freddy lol
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The old DH could be used to completely invalidate certain killer powersn such as running over bear traps.
New DH now forces survivors to spend time mending, doesn't give distance for free, and doesn't negate powers.
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