Stop complaining about 3 gens
I can’t believe we’ve gotten to the point where people are complaining about 3 gens.
It’s a valid strategy that’s been in the game for ages and can snowball a win for the killer. Now everyone’s crying about it and says we should eliminate it. It’s silly.
Survivors hate getting camped/tunneled out cause they don’t feel like it gives them a fair chance to “play the game”, and have said for ages to just “pressure gens” and you won’t have to do that. But then when we finally get some good perks that allow us to “pressure gens”, we’re also not allowed to maintain a 3 gen cause it’s boring too??? Like, what do survivors expect us to do? Get looped for 5 gens so everyone else can complete all the gens in a 5 minute game? The entitlement’s ridiculous.
I do think that Eruption and CoB are a little overtuned atm and need to be toned down to make 3 gens a little less extreme, but come on. In a game where survivors are inherently favored in chases and gens can get done extremely quickly, this is ridiculous. It’s not holding the game hostage to defend gens and delay gens being done as much as possible. God forbid the killer using good strategy and not just mindlessly committing to chases that are away from where gens are being done at.
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Eruption isn't overtuned. CoB isn't overtuned. That's not what's going on here.
People aren't talking about situations where survivors plan gens poorly and trap themselves.
The '3 gen' scenario is a killer, using specific killers/builds for this purpose, intentionally locking down 3 gens the second a match starts and never leaving, with their goal being to draw the game out indefinitely.
This isn't a strategy, any more than 2 survivors playing hide and seek for 30 minutes on Eyrie while avoiding AFK crows in the hopes the killer DCs a strategy. It's just taking the game hostage.
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The game should never allow a situation in which one of the players can sit on a specific spot and force a stalemate until they win.
I understand to a certain degree defending a "Well, if the survivors 3-gen themselves, it's their fault", but even in that situation, I think 3-gens have no place in the game.
Imagine if the killer camped a 3-gen on the corner from the get-go and refused to take chases to keep gens at 0, but survivors decided that they don't want to deal with that and just hang around on the oposite corner of the map. What's the solution? Someone's gonna get reported, and it's entirely going to be the game's fault, not the players.
The game should promote movement. The game should promote taking risks and everyone having chances to win. The game shouldn't promote situations in which doing nothing is the best way to win. That's the reason why they removed the whole "Oops, The Pig is standing in front of the puzzle that solves my Reverse Bear Trap. I guess I'll just die.". You could call it a strategy, but it wasn't fair nor was it fun for anyone involved.
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Killers like Doctor and Knight who are really strong in a 3-gen become borderline-impossible to beat if they're running Overcharge/CoB/Eruption/NWTH.
A full SWF with comms, yeah, they can probably do something about it, but it'll still be tough, but solo queue has basically no chance. If the killer chooses their best 3 gen at the start of the game and patrols it from 5 gens, there's no counterplay.
None of those perks are overtuned by the way (but Eruption does have issues). Neither are killers who can hold down an area well a problem. The problem is that when you combine all of these things together, it's just too oppressive for most players.
And I play this build on some of my killers. I played it on Doc the day the Knight was released and even on Eyrie, a godawful map for killers, and even against a team of decent loopers, I still kept the game going for like 30 minutes and got a 4k when quite frankly I didn't deserve it with how good they were at looping.
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Someone posted a "stop complaining..." thread about it!
Yay we've made it everyone!
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You aren't understanding the situation but having gone over this so much in the last while I am tired of repeating myself.
Please watch at least the first 2 or so minutes of this video so you can understand what people are frustrated with. You can pretty much skip most of the rest and go to the end as you will get the general idea by then.
Nobody is complaining if survivors greedily rush the safest gens and ignore the unsafe/mid gens and 3 gen themselves...
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Survivors causing a 3 gen themselves is not a problem it’s their own stupidity but being able to put CoB/overcharge/eruption on all 3 repeatedly is honestly nonsense, if swfs can barely handle it what do you think solo is like lmao it’s such a joke to be in solo que with a killer running all the meta regression and just hit and running from gen to gen. I had a 50 minute match on haddonfield because of it. They either need nerfs individually (not big but like eruption definitely needs toned down) or they need to not be able to stack lasting effects. No one runs pop anymore because you actually have to play the game to get value out of that perk, make it so they have to be in chase for 20 seconds to get eruption back or something just a suggestion
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The problem as others have said is killers camping a 3 gen before a single gen is even done. Using knight it’s absurd how long the games can go on for.
Maps like suffocation pit, asarov’s or dead dawg make this trivial
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“iT’s A vAlId StRaTeGy”
Why is this the battle cry for every player that chooses to play in a crappy way? We all know both sides will never agree. We all know it’s hard to make sure both sides can have fun.
But stop trying to justify your horrible choice of gameplay by always saying it’s a valid strategy.
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To all the people saying it's only a problem when they do it from the get go: You guys are aware this has always been a thing right, and certain killers literally function by doing exactly this (Hag). The problem here is Eruption and Knight, not the strat. A 3 gen can be broken if there's enough survivors and the right tools/play from them. Eruption's just what makes it tricky since the killer can commit more to a chase since they have Eruption to fall back on, which we know how much that decimates solo que survivors. Like my post said, stop complaining over a valid strategy that can't even be curbed in a realistic manner.
Part of killer objective is literally to stop gens from getting done, so this is a bad take. The flow of the game is dependent on survivors doing gens and engaging in chases which is why they're always at fault if they hide without doing anything. And I've stated before that chases inherently favor survivors, that's why people would rather protect 3 gens with CoB Eruption. Why do you think they always aggressively guard 3 gens in comp?
OC is by far the worst of the trio and should not be considered at all for a nerf. No one runs Pop cause it's garbage, 20% of current is nothing compared to instant 25% progress loss.
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Nobody is complaining about 3-gens.
What people are complaining about is how you can use 3-gens to take the game hostage. And ever since it has blown up on social media that stuff like this is possible, a lot of my recent matches end in 40+ minute stalemate matches where the killer refuses to hook or kill survivors, and survivors cannot complete their objective.
It's boring, it's not fun, and is against the rules to do so but honestly I cant be bothered to record and upload 20+ minute matches because it would kill my internet, and most of the time I just end up DCing because the 5 and 15 minute DC penalty is quicker than waiting out a 60 minute match timer.
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Well if the killer is refusing to actually kill anyone, then yes that's BS but the 3-gen isn't the problem. Heck, Ive been told I'm being reported for 3-genning on Dead Dawg with Pig, and my build is Blood Warden, No Way Out, Remember Me, and Terminus. So like, I am being "reported" for forcing the players into a 3-gen with what is essentially no perks at all until all 5 generators are done.
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yea I watch the video tho 3 gen suck but making the game long was he wasn't hooking anyone so yea
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Dead Hard for distance was a valid strategy too. That doesn't mean it was any less annoying.
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Just because something has been a thing from the start doesn't mean it hasn't been strong from the start and only gotten stronger.
Many things in many games can be downright op and stay inside the game for long because they are only known or used by a minority. it's when more people use them and their strength or op-ness is revealed to everyone that they may get changed.
Generally strats that invilve little interaction between two or more opponents can be be more OP, because it ignores the skillful side of the game by being uninteractive.
A killer with 3 slowdowns and the new killer perk that shows you aura's after a gen kick can bypass the more skillful part of the game, which is downing survivors. Heck if you just identify the 3 gen then it's even easier, sure to get some value of it you will have to down someone (Eruption) , but CoB's only activation requirement is kicking it. SO survivors are in the position that they have to play more risky to do those gens and the killer if he's that determined or smart will only commit to a chase he knows can work in his favor (so if say you wanna take him to a main building to waste his time, the killer can simply go back to his gen if he knows what you are doing)
Of course the same can be said about survivors, rushing gens is the uninteractive and skill-less equivalent of it. Besides maybe hitting great skillchecks there are perks that can do that for you (Stakeout).
But at the same time those strats for both sides are to be expected if they wanna win, because they are less random and therefore less volatile (like the gen is not unpredictable on its own etc.). The problem is how do we put skill back into the game and how much do we put? Because most people would agree that outplaying your opponent is the more fun and skillful part of most games, whether that is through mind games or mechanics alone. it's also why we accept the strength of someone like Nurse and Blight, because we believe not everyone but the highly skilled can "abuse" them. If their strength was as accessible as say Wraith or Trapper then we would see a lot more tuning to them.
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So Camping is a no go.... and 3 Genning is also a no go
But Gen rushing and T-Bagging at the exit gates are ok???
Anyway Killer seeing a 3 Gen and not taking advantage of it is what?
Yes I get it having that Killer not do anything outside the 3 Gen can be an issue... Call Of Brine only gives 200% Gen regression for 60 seconds and a notification on a skillcheck... Eruption is only useful once a Survivor goes down... Overcharge has the skillcheck as soon as the Survivor touches a Gen and increases the Gen regression in 30 seconds... All of these perks have synergy so finding a couple of solutions for it can go a long way...
I did it once as Pig I forgot my build but it was after I prestiged her (This was like a year or so ago)
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But Gen rushing and T-Bagging at the exit gates are ok???Why do we always get the 'T-Bagging okay' argument? Pretty much everyone considers it bad manners at the exit gate. And while it's rude, it's not impacting the game like camping/3 genning/gen rushing.
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As many people have mentioned, killers can identify a 3 gen from the start. This can create an infinite loop: survivors rush in, get hit, retreat to heal, killer kicks gens, heal. Sure it's breakable by a team with the right setup and/or SWF, but can be impossible for a soloQ.
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I half agree, though after reading the counter arguments I've come to the conclusion that this whole game is just a goddamn mess
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Welcome to team reason
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We need item reform.
We need a map rework for almost all of the reworks.
We need 90% of the killer roster to be viable.
We either need to nerf SWF or buff killer/solo queue players.
We need fundamentally different pallet formations (or reduced counts on all maps) so that killers without an instant pallet break can compete.
We do NOT need a thread talking about this one time one streamer took 4 people hostage for an hour. It's against the rules to play and not try to win.
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Clearly you're new because the 3-gen strat has been complained about for years. And now it's arguably stronger than ever.
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You missed one:
"we need posters like this with a clear bias to only one group of players in the game to relax their bias and think of the other people playing this game too."
Like, it's not even that what you said is wrong. Just completely one-sided.
Item reform? Yeah. Agreed. There are also a fair number of killer addons that are super unhealthy for the game. Just item reform, though? Ah, okay.
Map and pallet reform? Definitely!? Oh, looks like you are saying every map is only survivor sided, when many times maps form with absolutely nothing in many areas of the map.
So nice that you tacked on "and solo queue players" at the end though.
Come on. You've been around long enough to know how busted the game is for both sides. Stop with the one-sided bias (and don't pretend you aren't in many threads solely advocating for buffs to killers, all the while denying killers like Nurse are an issue).
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Valid strategy or not, a 3 gen strategy is not exciting or engaging gameplay for the vast majority of players. And right now the easiest way for a killer to win is to equip the gen kick build, play around a 3 gen, and make the game take a year. Again, people can argue about the validity of the strat, but players in the genre hate drawn out 20+ minute games of cat and mouse game after game. Ask the VHS devs how that's going.
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Your argument boils down to "3-Gen is only OP against SoloQ and isn't much of a strategy against SWF, and is only really a problem if the Killer doesn't find the playstyle boring to begin with".
If SoloQ gets better comms so it's easier to communicate, then it'll only be a strat useful on imbalanced MMR matchups.
So why not get rid of it.
If the argument is "But we need tools to fight SWF!", you just said it's not a tool that's useful against SWF.
If the argument is "But in high-level play we need to use this to eek out any actual gameplay", that's an issue with the overall initial availability of Generators in the Trial as a whole. (Start of the match having more gens available to be worked on concurrently gets more of them out of the way causing patrol routes to be more effective)
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Only replying bc I completely disagree with on the maps. The majority of the maps in this game are survivor sided and the fact most groups abuse those maps with map offerings to get an ez win shows you that. In this whole game, there is only one killer-sided map and that is midwich. So yes dbd does need a map reform so maps like crows, garden, cowshed, all the badham maps, and ect don't feel like hell on most killers that are not nurse. I will be happy to trade the one killer side map for more balanced maps. I can't tell you how many times I get sent to one of these maps every night since it happens so often.
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-"Item reform? Yeah. Agreed. There are also a fair number of killer addons that are super unhealthy for the game."
You can't put everything in a 5 bullet list.
I assume you mean Nurse/Blight addons that have 30-50% bonuses.
If we're talking about purple tombstone - get out. He's a terrible killer without that addon or infinite T3.
Let me turn your argument against you : DBD is unfair to the killer if the other team is a SWF. So why not get rid of it?
Solo queue could be made fair if we get rid of SWF in regular games.
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Seems to me like once again stacking the regression perks is the issue here. This whole "holding hostage" plan would never work with only one of those regression perks as they are not strong enough by themself.
I play plenty of Killer and I still think that stacking regression is a BS "build". It is boring and brings little interaction to the table aside from drawing out the match ad nauseam.
Three gening is a valid idea and not a bad thing per se. The problem comes from the stacked regression.
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Pretty much this.
Had a 40 min match yesterday against a pig who refused to chase. She would just kick a gen and get CoB/Eruption/Nowhere to hide on it. Wait for a survivor to go touch it and do it again.
We ended up just afking until she finally gave up and became bored of her own game.
Matches like this even if we had won are boring af. It didn’t help that the only random we had Dc’d on first hook.
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I love when a killer tries to 3 gen and fails.
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Three gens can be easily broken. If a killer goal from the start is to protect three gens. They never chase far from them or risk losing one.
Two survivors on gen 1 and two on gen 3. When the killer comes near, run away from the three gen area. Don't allow them space to hit you. The killer has to abandon chase or risk the other two survivors completing the other gen. This is in the survivors favor as two survivors can repair a gen faster than the killer can regress. Just don't be greedy.
Eruption doesn't matter because they don't commit to chases. CoB doesn't matter because you should jump back on the gen when the killer heads towards the other survivor pair.
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The survivor role is based around independent players working together to achieve something they couldn’t do alone. (Still keeping in mind that if ######### hits the fan it’s everyone for themselves).
Removing SWF is counterproductive to that design.
The Killer role is about trying to subjugate the Survivors to the entity, causing pain and suffering with the eventual reward being some kind of release.
Sitting in the middle of gens not trying to kill survivors is not following that design.
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The solution for 3 gen is Deja Vu + Potential Energy.
Equip them
Use them
???
Win
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blah blah valid strategy... I complain about camping mainly because its boring and there isnt really anything the camped survivor can do about it. Its all up to the killer to not camp. A 3 gen is almost always a loss. I get why people complain (mainly soloQ i guess?) But a 3 gen can be avoided. So how do you avoid a 3 gen? They should have played back in the days with 5 blink nurse insta moris etc :D would be fun to see how long they would last
Do the middle gen first (if there is one) when doing a gen run crossmap and do another gen make sure you save alteast 1 gen as far away as possible from the other 2 gens. Best case scenario would be to have 3 gens every far away.
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It's cause it happens...
If Killers identify a 3 Gen... they should be able to defend it... Killers don't have pressure right as the match starts
If "pretty much everyone" considers it bad then why does it continue to happen??? It's the same thing as waiting till the last second to leave the match... it's those people whom are holding up Queue times
Finishing Gens as fast ass possible is the Survivors primary objective.... Killing all 4 Survivors as fast as possible is the Killer's primary objective... everything else is just a secondary objective
But with the game the way it is... Killers have to adapt (and so do Survivors)
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My reply was hyperbole. It was only really to say SWF is OP and needs to be balanced.
A simple way to do that would to add one rule : No character, perk, item or offering repeats in a SWF. Add a menu element to show you your friends perks before you queue. Lock everything but cosmetics when a SWF queues. That would go a very long way to make SWF fair and limited.
Standing in the middle of 3 gens waiting for an opportunity to get a quick down does fill that role.
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Problem is then is that Eruption and Overcharge become worthless perks.
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The game has always been a war for gens. It's literally what the game is about. It's what decides who wins and loses. Nothing else.
If they would have just given survivors side objectives in order to do gens, it would bd far more balanced and you would see less gen control perks.
Alsl the fact that gen control perks exist disagtees with your arguement. Its3valid.
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If the Killers Power is designed around the premise of "Come to me, or it'll be worse", I can understand waiting around for Survivors to come to you.
However the only reason that Survivors come to the Killer in the case of a 3-gen is due to metagame restrictions and literally having no engaging alternative. They are literally unable to try to avoid the Killer, voiding their role as a Survivor, especially if it is a strong enough strat to consistently result in several additional sacrifices.
From a "I wanna win" perspective, yes, it makes sense.
From a design perspective, it's distasteful.
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As long as you attempt some offense it's fine. Doctor just putting people in madness and not attacking is different. I just had a 20+ min on the game. They picked that map to hinder me but I was not a "lesser" killer. They gave me a 3 gen and I slowly whittled down their resources. Even that map eventually runs out of good pallets.
I will chase but only if I know I can make it quick because survivors wanna rush my gens!
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Getting hits, using up pallets and building stacks of STBFL is trying to win - but not easy to notice.
Nurse and Blight pretty much always have a 3 gen because they can move so fast and down survivors faster than any other killer (most of the time). Should we all just play those two killers?
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Lol
SWF was added later because of high demand, nothing about Survivor was designed for SWF
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And that's why it is so broken.
Add the limits I said before : No repeats of perks, characters, items or offerings. Add the UI element to let teams see what perks people have before the queue. Then lock everything but cosmetics once in queue.
Then SWF has voice coms and solo queue has advantage : can use whatever you want.
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Actually it is, it's chess your pushing your opponent in the direction,you want them to go ,with our them realizing it! They trapped them selves,that's called Checkmate ! It's a good strategy and i haven't attempted it yet : d
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If "pretty much everyone" considers it bad then why does it continue to happen??? It's the same thing as waiting till the last second to leave the match... it's those people whom are holding up Queue timesI see this (TB) relatively rarely. Definitely not every match.
As for waiting around the exit gates: sometimes this is to check to see if another survivor needs help, or waiting for an injured survivor to heal to try and get a pip.
Also, it's an element that doesn't impact the game. If developers disabled repeated crouching it wouldn't impact win/loss rates.
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DBD 1.0 came out June 14th and swf was added on 11 July 2016 in 1.0.3. It's really not that big of a gap between 1.0 and when swf was added and people just dodged lobbies till they got in with their friends anyways. Bhvr even said they were always planning on adding swf too, so..
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Ironically, tombstone piece/tombstone/infinite tier 3 are literally the addons that are holding myers back from getting buffed.
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They could fix him lie this :
Make current T2 be the new "t1" but you are undetectable.
Make current T3 be the new T2. You charge your power and get a regular T3 once like normal.
Then you make the new T3 be infinite T3.
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No.
The ability to hold people hostage in a match is problematic.
I wasn't sure if it was possible but after testing, it absolutely is and it isn't even hard to do.
It's made even stronger if you're trying to actually win, not just hold 3 gens until the server closes.
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So, you'd cut out the slower T1, and make t2 the same just undetectable? And one tier 3 is just the regular length, and then the next time it pops it's infinite?
I'm not really sure how I'd personally want him buffed. I think basekit infinite tier 3 as you mentioned here might be too strong - but I'm not opposed to a basekit longer t3 - maybe a minute longer (I think for frame of reference, lock of hair adds 40 seconds).
I think memorial flower, earrings + jewelery could be made basekit and rework all of those addons to do something else - so slightly faster stalk, move around 30% quicker when stalking.
Assuming tombstone/tombstone piece was removed I'd love to have him get more stalk from stalking far away (that is truer to lore too), and remove the cap on stalked survivors to get his power, like slowly allow myers to stalk them more. Which would also help out if you kill a survivor that still has juice left in em. I don't know the sweet spot or how fast it should regenerate though.
I think undetectable is fairly weak for the most part, but I always thought it would be neat in T2 stalking makes myers undetectable.
But yeah, just some thoughts I've had over the course of me slowly getting his 300 tier ups achievement, because I really find him boring to play as.
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Ya go ahead and teach every solo que person that real quick I’ll wait.
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Why is Doctor using his Area of Effect Blast to stun lock Survivors off of gens in order to timeout the match and sacrifice them to the Entity any different? It’s a winning strategy, right?
Your comment about Pallets and getting hits also being about the win: yes, that’s the point. I’m not saying players shouldn’t play to win, just that there are some strategies that make the game more about evading and chasing (horror related), and others that are more about point defense (not horror related), which doesn’t mesh with the games vibe.
Regarding Nurse and Blight, that’s why whatever solution for a 3-gen would need to be independent of how spread out the gens are (while still being approachable by Killers with lower mobility).
I’m not disagreeing that the upper limits of coordination for SWF and problematic items still exist in DBD. (But I disagree with limiting Perk loadouts. Perks should be designed with it in mind that it can be used in a team.) Though that’s not the conversation for this thread.
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