Deathslinger ADS buff
Comments
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It is a 0.4 second delay, how is it that much of an issue for you to not have fun anymore??
it makes wiggling too strong given his 1 ammo count. survivor is somewhat braindead in my opinion against him. there is more odds for him to miss then there is for him to land his shot and in some cases, its physically impossible for slinger to land the shot if the survivor is good enough at movement. The change makes his aiming irrelevant.
Why do people always make such a big deal out of small changes
A) Because they're not small changes. they make the killer a lot less fun to play.
B) They're not as interesting to go against.
That does not change the fact that most shots slinger fires cannot be reaction dodged because it is humanly not possible because of the travel time of singers projectile and the human reaction time + ping/imput delay...
your heavily convinced that he has no counter-play when I am saying he does counter-play to his gun. this is becoming pointless conversation.
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Seems like we are at a point were half of the community thinks he is perfect and the other half thinks he is needing a buff.
I don't know if the insta quicscope is overcoming back to DBD, but the slinger does a need a buff to make him feel more enjoyable, I'm unsure as to what that could be but a base-kit faster reload speed does sound good, with faster base-kit reel speed.
All in all the difference between Deathslinger pre-patch 5.3.0 and now is huge, from being able to quickscope everybody to having to take a bit to aim is huge.
Also the folks saying human reaction time and stuiff, relax we don't need a biology lesson yet, I will make another discussion for you guys about that if you want but you can still dodge his spear yes, its not impossible just hold left or right when you think he is shooting and you can barely miss it due to its tiny hitbox.
Also his projectile is the most perfect hit-box thing I have seen in DBD, it can go through holes, through peoples legs it sucks, and over shoulders I don't know why they made it actually so perfect, pretty cool yet frustrating when I give someone a haircut because it went behind their knees or something.
Deathslinger does need so loving but insta ADS should probably and sadly not come back just yet.
Maybe 2023 is the year of the Deathslinger and new cosmetics.
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I play him a ton but I don't think he needs the instant scope back. Can he feel sh## at times? Absolutely, but he should be buffed in different ways. Namely the tin oil can & wardens keys should be basekit to encourage slinger players to actually use their power.
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I give revert other changes, like the smaller Terror Radius he had before; yet the quick scoping is complete fine and doesn't need a revert at all.
I suck that it hard to sneak up to survivors and get close enough to get a clean shot before they can realize you are close. Especially since he is Ranged Killer with the most limited range on his gun, compare to the others that have decent far Ranged like Huntress and Trickster.
I wouldn't buff his movement speed as he has a crippled leg, by lore friendly vibe. Plus, he is a range killer with small movements speed when aiming.
But if I wanted to give significant buff, I would maybe allows the killer to get a free grab/pickup upon successful reeling the Survivors close enough, but if separate by a dropped pallet and window in between. It would go something like this...
I loop a Dwilight at killer shack, he has 2 options of escape; he can run towards the pallet or the window; i am not fast enough to hit him regularly, yet I am in range to land a successful shot even if they vaulted or not.
Option A: He vaults the window and I hit him with the spear, I reel him in while he is still outside, once we are face to face; I get a prompt button to grab him and put him on my shoulder.
Option B: He drops the pallet between us, yet I hit him. I can do exactly what I did before with he window, keep him reel in place while getting close to the pallet and get a free grab also.
Option C: I was able to shoot them, yet the gets reel and gets a simple normal hit, no free grab as there are no barriers in between us. Or the Survivors was able to juke my aim and I miss, they get away, drop the pallet or vault thw window before I can reload my shot.
Another QoL improvement they could do, is increased the Ranged of the gun more as well as the reloading/reeling time to compensate for the insanely nerf to his quickscoping.
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It makes his aiming relevant now before you could aim before using ads and the survivor and no chance to react since you would instantly shoot.
Going against Spirit and Slinger is far less annoying since the change.
I'm not necessarily saying he has no counterplay I m just saying you cannot react to it, that's not even an opinion when you look at the stats, sure you can start juking when he raises his gun but at that point you re not reacting to shot itself.
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If you think he is shooting yes sure, but then you don't reaction dodge it, that's a big difference...
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I don't know about the grabs, because then you turn it into a loose loose situation for the survivor. When we think about the smaller tiles with a pallet slinger can usually hit the survivor and go around and get his m1 before the chain breaks, but with this he doesn't even need to anymore, even on loops that are too big and since he can always injure you by letting the chain break it doesn't change much if the grabbing can only be used while the survivor is injured.
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I don't know where you came up with half the community saying he's in perfect spot. All I see is people generally agreeing that he needs buffs. The difference is, that some people think it should be reverted nerf and others (like me) think it should be something different entirely. The old slinger was braindead easy - which is something also Hens agrees in (see the video @Archol123 sent at the end of the match. Hens clearly said old DS was free and he likes current DS more to play as or against. See 3:54:30).
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You are right, @Gandor. I feel like getting a shot up close is almost guaranteed unless you get a ridiculous hit bot register and your shot goes just above their hit-box (Like I said, the spears hit box is so small its impressive), but when going for a shot further away it is almost impossible to get it without fake aiming and corralling them to a corner then getting a hit.
Watch some Huntress gameplay, her hatchets have a huge hitbox and can get a hit above someone's head on a loop, just wish the Redeemer's spear was more generous on the hitboxes to still go through small gaps in tiles, loops and walls but nothing crazy like shooting a foot above a survivors head and getting a hit.
And yes Huntress has a generous hitbox because her power is different but watch some weird hits from Otz or Coconut, sometimes they get hits above or behind someone due to ping and stuff I think it is. Still would be nice for Slinger to have some more generous hits.
👁️👄👁️🗨️ what are these goofy emojis?
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you are reaction dodging. your just not mixing wiggling and reaction dodging because wiggling makes you lose a lot more distance due to the m2 canceling(on old slinger). it is singular dodging, not continuously dodging. In my opinion, it is higher skill-cap for both killer to land the shot and for survivor to outplay the shot.
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Well, so we have now more reasonable proposition how to buff DS. Just make his hit box slightly (say half radius of huntress, but that's just guess and maybe some other number would be better) larger while keeping his environment hitbox the same. I would 100% support this
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please no. that just makes him a bad clone of huntress killer. he should be unique killer.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on0 -
The hit box is perfect. There’s just no reason to actually shoot the gun at high skill levels because survivors dodge it flawlessly every time.
To give the gun a use, I’d make it so shooting a gen would have the same effect as kicking it. Tons of fun to be had and diverse builds.
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I mean at a certain distance that's just wrong or when they run along a wall just shoot to the only side they can dodge and they will almost always just run into it...
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Oh yea if you are like 5 meters away, they can’t dodge, but you can just M1. If you are talking about unsafe loops, good survivors avoid those.
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Problem everything that is 8-10m and less, would have to do the math for the exact distance. But given that the projectile moves at 40m/s and human reaction time being around 200-300ms +30-60ms ping you will end up somewhere between 9.2 and 13.5m depending on ping and reaction time of the specific player. So it is basically impossible to dodge shots based on reaction the shot below 9 m of distance and it becomes possible at higher distances.
Unsafe loops cannot always be avoided depending on the map and the location in the map you currently are in.
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Forgive me fellas, was at work and realised the abomination I proposed.
Deathslinger's Redeemer hit-box is perfect and should not be altered full stop.
Damn, we really aren't getting anywhere with how to buff slinger or his redeemer.
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both killer player and survivor player have a ping. just assuming that both player have 60 m/s ping, you have same delay for your input to fire the shot as the survivor does, so it is just net 0. ranged killer are 110% m/s for a reason. they're super slow because your suppose to be way ahead of them in general. This is most evident by when you break pallets as killer, the extra distance to make up is a lot longer at 110% m/s when going in a straight line but trade off is that your ranged killer so you can hit survivor at a range which both weaken and buff shift-w in unique way. As a result, I would almost say that being close to ranged killer is a mistake in itself. The killer is suppose to be in advantage at 8-10 meters because you clearly misplayed your movement somewhere for 110% to be this close. Still do not understand why you want to have second-chances after already making a movement error/instant ADS shot bluff.
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It's not net 0 since your ping has nothing to do with when the survivor will be able to notice the shot, sure if he randomly turns during that time it does something but when it's just about reacting then your ping as killer does not matter, only the time between your shot starting and the survivors input comes into place matters... Most tiles work in a way where you will always be in that 8-10 m range, so it is not a mistake but just how the game functions... Play shack or a long wall jungle gym and see how mic distance you will usually have against the killer.
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I ll explain it more easily... Ping is the delay between pressing a button until the action that is bound to the button starts happening. So on the killer side pressing the button to shoot and shooting. However since the survivor can only react to the action happening:the shot itself but not the pressing of the button. The killers ping is not relevant when reacting to his shot. Now when the survivors wants to react to the shot his ping becomes relevant because even if he presses the button in time his ping can delay his action to dodge the shot and therefore it does not end up evening itself out.
That's why the survivors ping but not the killers ping is relevant for the reaction. But ofc it does work both ways, if the killer is reacting to the survivor his ping will be relevant but not the survivors.
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I know there is also a delay in the hardware between input and action happening, but as far as I'm aware it is so low it does not really matter. (wasn't it something like 4 ms or something?) so I think that can be neglected...
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Also ping is millisecond not m/s (Meter per second) xD
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Ping (latency is the technically more correct term) means the time it takes for a small data set to be transmitted from your device to a server on the Internet and back to your device again. The ping time is measured in milliseconds (ms)
I mean yeah we could go this technical, but in the end it does not really change that the killers ping does not matter in our scenario since at the point his shot happens his ping has already been calculated, but the survivors will only come into account when reacting to.
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more ping = easier to react to because each action has cumulative delay due to latency though some games allow you to queue actions, not sure about dbd because DBD is fps game. For example, before nurse's rework, you had to blink then press m1 manually to m1 out of a blink and if you press m1 too early, you would skip your m1, but post nurse's rework, you can queue a blink and m1 attack. I do not think you can do with deathslinger because he aim first then you need to fire. The result is more ping means you will get delay for pressing aim down sight then pressing the fire gun action leading to overall more time to see incoming shot. it would be easier to react to the gun if you had Mcdonald wifi connection.
I don't know about the grabs, because then you turn it into a loose loose situation for the survivor.
No you cannot?? Based on reaction time + ping that is more than the travel distance, it is physically impossible to dodge that thin??
In summary, The two reasons why slinger got changed is because lesser skilled players complained about lose/lose situations that did not exist(they were just making bad reads on when he is going to shoot). The other reason is lesser skilled players like you believe that is gun is unreactable and if the deathslinger had good aim, he always hits his shot while better player understood how to hold-w and make distance on a 110% m/s to outplay his gun. DBD always balances killer off bad players, so there is nothing to more to talk about regarding slinger. He will remain as unfun killer to play until his changes are reverted which is unlikely given this conversation. Just because your bad at versing him does not mean that everyone is bad vs ranged killers.
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@Archol123 you are not even really correct. Yes. Killer's ping does not even out with survivor's ping. It's way worse then what you wrote.
@Devil_hit11 I will explain to you why you are absolutely not correct about ping evening out between killer and survivor.
The reason being, that actual killer hits are defined by what killer sees. This is the reason, why huntress can hit you behind the corner or wesker can grab you thru the window even if you left it for several meters etc or any other killer can hit you with M1 even after you vaulted that window and made 5 steps away from it (this can be really felt on really bad killer pings). For this reason, killer's (and also survivor's) ping does not matter to killer, but it does matter to survivor. He will get information about killer trying to aim at him only once the packet about this action arrives to survivor (so this is again same reason why some horrible-ping killers (say 300+ms) can shoot you without ever aiming at you or nemesis using his tentacles without ever charging it and so on). For these reasons killer has time buffer of killer ping + survivor ping to actually hit survivor.
To show an example. Say 115% killer (e.g. trapper) and survivor are at some short wall with pallet. Killer has 100ms ping and survivor 50ms ping. Survivor is standing next to pallet and waiting for killer to react to him. Once killer decides to move one direction, survivor will see this movement only after 100ms - meaning killer's position is already about 0,415m closer to survivor then what he sees. Now there's some reaction time (this is smaller then your 200-300ms, because when you expect this situation - then you are more aware and can react sooner - say 50ms, but I don't know exact average human reaction number) until survivor starts to move + 50ms until this information arrives to killer and updates survivor's position on his screen. This in fact results in 100ms+50ms+50ms = 200ms survivor "not moving at all" time out of which 150ms is just network slowdown. For this reason killer can be 0,83m away before survivor even starts to move in some direction.
If the game was changed to be "server based" for hits (same way as other online games work), then all the hits would be evaluated only on server. This means that killer with 100ms ping would have much harder time now, because survivor's position would be 0,4m different to what he would see. This would also result in killer seeing that he hit that survivor but game actually telling him he did not hit him. On the other hand, survivors would not get just barely hit (in this specific example) when 100ms+50ms outside of hit zone (or 0,415+0,2m = 0,615m when in safety), but only 50ms outside it (or 0,2m when in safety on their display). This would overall feel much better on survivors and would eliminate reason why some killers play with VPN connected to some distant server (like European killer playing in US or in Asia to have easier time). The better the ping, the better the experience for both sides.
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Are you calling Hens lesser skilled player? Because again - in video that was provided here (timestamp 3:54:30) he talked how old DS was FREE. That this DS is much better, because this one actually requires skill. And that this deathslinger in his opinion is much more for to play as and to play against.
It's very weird you would call him lesser experienced, because he is the person people point out how SWF is broken. And if you want to call him biased survivor main - you will see him play killer waaaaay more often then survivor. I would in fact guess it's 80% killer 20% survivor (but these numbers are just my guess, they could be slightly different).
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no, hens knows what he is doing vs slinger as seen in otz's showcase of deathslinger at high-level play. He is playing vs slinger correctly. I am just disappointed in the whole slinger has unreactable gun and that there is no nuance to his old gameplay when there clearly was. it just was not full proof because its not suppose to be full proof like the current one. I obviously do not believe SWF is broken, more so then killer is weaker role for most killers because of balance for casuals. my post is directed to Archol123 who keeps saying that deathslinger had no counter-play/nuance to his gameplay.
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But again - also Hens said old DS was "free". He could really just run at you and raise/lower his gun all the time and never commit to get you. Loose loose situation with 0 counter play. No fun to play against and braindead to play as (which again - told in a way less words - is something Hens said in that video at that timestamp).
The ADS change was good one. The problem was, that he never got some compensation buff. And I would be OK with some - say give him 2 spears per one reload. Or something else entirelly. I don't really know what should be the buff. But it should be something that actually has some skillful counter play.
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200ms-300ms is already when you know something is about to happen, when you test your own reaction time you will find websites that have a red spot that turns green and when it turns green you need to click... With this you will be around 200-300ms...
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That example does not really fit... When Nurse blinks and before she hits there needs to be player input... But with slinger it is different since as soon as his gun is ads you get no more Intel when he is about to shoot. The reaction time is only between him shooting and the projectile hitting you... And you simply cannot react to that... Below 8-9m it is physically impossible and it is fairly obvious if you understand what reaction time and projectile speed indicate... That's the point where you could not even crouch dodge a shot that's aimed at your chest. And if you are not able to understand that the laws of physics do not care about you not understanding them but still apply then I cannot help you.
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I thought the missing animation was just a visual bug and not a high ping issue?
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I think I read somewhere that the fastest reaction time ever recorded was around 120ms, average human reaction time being around 200-300ms. This is all already in consideration that the person knows that something is about to happen, if the person gets taken by surprise it is far longer.
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its not suppose to be about reaction. its suppose to be about predicting. mindgames. the reaction part is more of strategy to not need to use as much prediction on every shot.
it should be something that actually has some skillful counter play.
what... your complaining about something that did take skill to outplay.
I don't really know what should be the buff.
The best buff is revert.
He could really just run at you and raise/lower his gun all the time and never commit to get you. Loose loose situation with 0 counter play. No fun to play against and braindead to play as
this sounds like my exact description of my previous post. survivor baby rage because it was too difficult to learn to play against the killer.
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Reacting appropriately to things happening is skillful. Even mind games provoke appropriate reactions to certain situations but turn out to be a different thing then the other sight assumed it would be. If old deathslinger runs after you and raises and lowers his gun 20 times without getting slowed down much you are telling me knowing when he will shoot is more than just guessing? Based on what exactly especially since he had not really any delay before he could shoot, so if he wanted he did not necessarily need to give you any information about an incoming shot... That is what made him free, and since Hens a really skilled player said exactly that you cannot say that we are just bad, because players that are not bad objectively, share that opinion. So your point of "you are just bad and don't know the game" just does not fit.
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where exactly in that gameplay in hens gameplay do you see 20 times of raise+lower gun in the gameplay? This is such utter non-sense. There is this concept called conditioning in games. The more you do particular action, the less likely the opponent will fall for your bluff and vice versa. there is no need to respect every single ADS that the deathslinger player does. you could just disrespect his ADS and keep running forward. There is also principal of line of sight. Use objects to impair his ability to shoot you. As @roundpitt states, good survivor can flawlessly dodge his gun at distance. Your lazy to learn how to play against the character.
This is why you keep parroting the same old Deathslinger is unfun, braindead and boring slogan that almost every survivor main player whines about when they do not like playing against the killer. Personally, I think he was fun, interesting and took a lot of skill to play correctly. Overall I enjoyed playing survivor against his old-self. His current version for me is boring, uninspiring and somewhat braindead to play against.
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The 20 times ads is the old deaths linger and the reason why his design was bad, I thought that was fairly obvious. Yes you can react to it at certain distance I never disagreed with it, but I said that at medium distance it cannot be reacted to and since most of the time he will shoot at medium distance his old version was problematic.
Conditioning needs a lot of repetitions and I don't think it works that well in Dbd, the times you can get downed and hooked per mact is limited and you are rather unlikely going to face the same player again.
I get the feeling you don't understand the words you are using... How is it more brain dead to go against/play a killer that can shoot you without any warning and without being able to react to it than getting somewhat of a hint? I simply don't understand that kind of reasoning, it makes no sense for me how you could get to this conclusion... And generalizing people into survivor or killer main despite having no information to back that claim is also a weird thing to do... Like wanting to have a somewhat fair and balanced gaming experience of eboth sides is a one-sided thing to want...
If you think old slinger was fine we can do the following: I ll play slinger you play survivor we go a certain amount of distance apart, we stand still, I aim at your chest height you crouch to reaction dodge the shot, I will keep ads the entire time, since old slinger didn't have any significant amount of warning either this should be somewhat fine. We will decrease the distance and see at which distance you can still reaction dodge it... And then we find out if you can something about it or if it is not possible to dodge.
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Exactly. And I presume he would not be able to dodge even at 18m (I might be wrong, but I think that would be the case).
Also I am more of Hens's opinion - people don't like current DS, because he now takes skill to play as opposed to be free.
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At 18 you have almost half a second to dodge, so I think at that point it could be possible, but as far as I'm aware at 18 m the slinger has problems reeling the survivor in anyways XD As seen in one of Hens' clips on RPD. Dodging in the sense of crouching, I don't know if you can sidestep it in that time to be honest... But it might be possible, we could test it out.
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The fact that you two are second guessing yourself highly proves that you have played 0 hours on deathslinger. your blurbing complete non-sense like 20 ADS canceling. You have absolute zero experience on slinger to be posting comments like this. I played deathslinger for like 2 months straight at one point all the way to rank 1 on the old emblem system so I already know what the gameplay experience was like for deathslinger. The mental gymnastics that you two have regarding killers is unbelievably self-centered. I have zero clue to why your opinion regarding deathslinger matters when you clearly do not play the character at all. Its a bit disheartening that dev have to listen to this stuff and often makes changes based off this feedback.
Your entitled to your opinion to think that he was unfair/unfun/boring killer. My opinion has not changed though. I am just sad that we lost a fun killer to play. He was more interesting to vs before and far more enjoyable to play.
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A question of being able to react to something in a very specific amount of time has not really much to do with playing the game, when it is just about numbers... I don't get how you still don't understand that point... It is just about is it possible to react to something in that time or is human reaction time too slow... He was boring to face and play and he was free like we elaborated already, it just looks like you wanted to hit shots with 0 effort and without having to put any time into learning to aim. Like Hens said in the clip "old slinger was free" and thats terrible design.
Also you don't even know what your reaction time would and if you would be able to dodge because you have put no thought into the machanics behind the killer, so you should really just figure that stuff out before complaining about people having no clue. You didn't even try to understand what we were talking about, usually when you show people facts that contradict their believe they start questioning their believe, simply because you cannot argue against the laws of physics or proper math. The world just does not work like it... But since you didn't even bother to figure out if you would be fast enough to reaction dodge something like that, or fact check the numbers and therefore know that they are not made up but accurate... It is really frustrating when people don't even bother to try to understand the points you are making, especially when they are not complicated... It is only a matter of math and physics, is it humanly possible to react to something that happens within xy ms of time yes or no... That's all... Nothing more to it and thats not even an opinion, thats just facts.
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Its not even like I didn't or don't play slinger, I played him a bit before the rework, but hated how little stuff you could do against him and I tend to not play things that annoy me from the other side, that's why I don't play eruption or range addons on nurse and so on... But he seems fine to me right now and at least people can do something and get a warning that he is about to shoot.
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Also second guessing yourself is rather easy when it is a question that just came up and you didn't yet calculate if it's possible or not... Just saying it is or it is not rather proves that you didn't take the time to think about it. Whereas the question if you can dodge a shot by simply crouching, which is as far as I know rather instant, is way easier to answer then let's say can you sidestep a shot at a certain distance, because then you need to take into account how big the hitbox and how big the projectile is, you need to again take reaction time and ping into account, you need to think of where the deathslinger was aiming... So let's make it rather simple:
Survivor is running alongside shack and hugging the wall, he can only go right, slinger aims to most right point of his hitbox, can the survivor sidestep the shot? To answer that we need to know how wide the survivors hitbox is and how much distance he would need to go to the side to avoid the shot and then figure out if the projectile will travel faster than the survivor can react and side step. It's just not a simple question and before I did the math I cannot say for sure. That's how you usually deal with things you didn't calculate yet, you say you don't know and can only assume/guess and you need to do the math. It does not show lack of experience, because even if you play slinger you cannot know since maybe the survivor just got lucky and sidestepped beforehand and you missed. To know for sure you would need to do the calculation.
The projectile takes around 0.45 seconds to reach 18m (given that the projectile moves at 40m/s). If we take into account reaction time and ping as further up we get 200-300 ms (average reaction time) and 30-60 ms (ping). So if the survivor presses the button as soon as humanly possible he has 0.22 seconds to 0.09 seconds to get his hitbox out of slingers shot.
Given that I don't know how wide the survivor hitbox is (and I did not find information on that in the wiki, maybe it is there and I just didn't find it...) I can only make an educated guess...
Survivors move at 4.0 m/s. If we use the 0.22 seconds then we get 0.88m of distance (I would assume the hitbox is smaller, so the deathslinger would not hit the shot, but since I don't know how big the hitbox is I cannot know for sure). If we use the 0.09 seconds then we get 0.39m. That might be distance at which the survivor could still get hit, I have to assume (like I said, I don't know for sure). Now it only depends on how fast the specific player is if he gets hit or not...
So to answer the question it depends... on two factors: 1. How wide is the survivors hitbox 2. How good is the survivors reaction time. So in general I would say that based on these calculations I would assume that it is humanly possible to dodge at that distance, but you would need to be not too slow and the hitbox would need to be a specific lenght.
I hope that helps.
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The projectile takes around 0.45 seconds to reach 18m (given that the projectile moves at 40m/s). If we take into account reaction time and ping as further up we get 200-300 ms (average reaction time) and 30-60 ms (ping). So if the survivor presses the button as soon as humanly possible he has 0.22 seconds to 0.09 seconds to get his hitbox out of slingers shot.
I wish you would stop pretending like you know anything about the killer. Deathslinger's gun was not instant scoping. it had 0.15 second aim down sight. according to your math was 0.6-0.3 between 18-8 meters. This assuming that deathslinger has 0 ping and press aim down sight -> fire shot with 0 input delay or network delay. This is first part.
The second aspect i want to talk about is the assumption that the survivor needs to go outside of hit boxes. The way quickscoping worked for slinger was that the killer and survivor have an invisible crosshair on their screen which I will call it the viewing angle(for survivor). To quickscope as slinger, you wanted to align your crosshair with survivor's model then immediately fire with a little bit of flick to predict where the survivor was going to be so that they side-step into the shot. The gameplay from the survivor side was all about avoiding deathslinger's viewing angle and moving as forward as possible while looking for his aim down sight+travel distance on the harpoon gun. The end point I am trying to conclude is that you should not be moving outside of his harpoon gun hitboxes, rather you should be already outside of his hitbox before the shot is fired. In practice, deathslinger was trying to predict where the survivor was going to be, not where the survivor currently is. From the survivor point of view, It was a mixture between reacting to shots and anticipating shots, Mindgames essentially.
Just to go on slight tangent, This viewing angle is how the stronger survivor players reveal Ghostface's Nightshroud quickly. Ghostface's model has a hitbox and in order to reveal him quickly, you simply point your invisible crosshair like giant lazer beam into his nightshroud hitbox and it reveals him after 1.5 second. this is just to talk about one of your post complaining about ghostface's reveal mechanic. Its incredibly easy. It is why it is difficult stalk experienced survivors with GF.
Going back to the conversation. Everything I have talked about is observable in gameplay. Hens interaction is a good example at 14:14-14:21 was very good outlook how gameplay between Slinger and good survivor looked like. You can instantly see how quickly hens would stay out of slinger's crosshair by default and how quickly hens would react to avoid the initial shot. Your perception of ADS canceling 20 times is complete exaggeration of the gameplay as seen in this video. Nowhere in the gameplay does this occur and your just projecting your feeling onto me for your dislike on the killer.
I remember watching his stream that day and he did around 8 slinger matches that day. most of them I remember them being on Coal tower. There was more gameplay in regards to old slinger but a single match is good enough to examine most of the gameplay elements.
Also I am more of Hens's opinion - people don't like current DS, because he now takes skill to play as opposed to be free.
Deathslinger was not free. My main dislike for these changes is that the survivor has too much control over his ranged ability on a killer that is suppose to heavily rely on his ability to get hits. Playing him vs strong survivors feels like having a useless ranged option that only works vs weaker players. You feel almost like 110% m/s m1 killer against good survivors. Its not matter of adapting to his changes. his changes just don't work. Its like taking a power reliant killer like Nurse and demolishing the killer kit with 2 changes then putting some bandages.
Nurse:
-Added blink location indicator for survivor to see blink location when charging Spencer's Last Breath
-Reduced max blink range from 20/10 to 14/8
-Reduced blink missed fatique duration from 3.5 to 2.5
-Increased Nurse base movement speed by 4%.
Anyhow, I am over the changes. I just do not think slinger changes were good changes. You can keep believing they are good changes though.
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So you take Hens' gameplay as proof for him being not free, but Hens himself saying he was free does not count??? I don't understand that logic.
If you try to be outside of his imaginary cross hair then he is zoning you for free... That's also a point I made before... Old ds had free zoning...
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I quickly checked deaths lingers changelock in the wiki and it only says that he now has a minimum time to ad's of 0.4 s which implies to me that he did not have it before, there is also not mentioned that the minimum time to ads was improved from 0.15 to 0.4 s so unless you have proof it was like that I'm going to ignore that point. Also in the notes the devs were quoted that they didn't like the insta scoping because there was very little to do about it.
Also I'm not pretending I checked the stats in the wiki and did the math based on it... I m laying my sources open for everyone to check them out and correct me. Even if we ignore input delay for the survivor as well it would be a very minor difference for the math I did... But sure for the sake of the argument go for it.
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If you try to be outside of his imaginary cross hair then he is zoning you for free... That's also a point I made before... Old ds had free zoning...
I do not consider that free zoning because you can technically be under his crosshair, It is just not advised. He is not prohibiting your movement. He is making your movement more risky. I would say he has free zoning at window vaulting because he can shoot you at the animation of vaulting therefore prohibiting your ability to vault window in a lot of situations but given his status as 110% m/s killer, there is no real reason to overly greed loops given that all maps have some form of high-wall loops to use LOS along with pallet breaks that give a lot of free distance.
I would say free-zoning is when a character prohibits an area or an action that would resolve in hit or down with limit to zero counter-play from the other side. there are loads of example of that in dbd. Artist's birds are often considered free-zoning tools because she can place birds at pallets where you cannot enter the bird trajectory but going under the mask of the bird can result in a free health-state loss. Dredge's Remnant when in the corner of a map/pallet can be free-zoning because you cannot enter Remnant to cancel it but going close to it allows Dredge to back-teleport into a lunge m1 hit. Hag's traps can be free-zoning because your trying to avoid traps are placed in choke points where the trap blocks your path leading to a trap trigger being an instant tp m1 hit. Trapper's traps at pallets or windows can prohibit your ability to use window or a pallet. Scottjund for example dislikes the knight's power because he thinks that the guards are free-zoning.
free-zoning is free hit without any counter-play/nuance. old slinger has counter-play and nuance in almost in any situation. The situations where you get hit for free were situations that you made a mistake prior to put in unfavourably position.
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I don't agree with that definition, I would say zoning is the ability to make a specific path much more risky to take, with an almost guaranteed hit if you still do... Like when demogorgon follows you with his shred or huntress has a fully charged hatched and aims at you, same goes for slinger. But now we get to the part where it becomes free... Huntress gets slowed down for holding the hatched, demogorgon gets slowed down for holding his shred and so on, old slinger did not get slowed for zoning since his wind up was basically non existent he could threaten a specific area without any negative effect towards his movements peed or so. And for me that's a prime example for free zoning. Yes you could still walk in his cross hair being at a higher risk to be shot but taking countermeasures will shorten your distance to him since he does not get slowed down ending up in a loose loose situation... If you don't dodge or make yourself hard to hit you will get shot and if you do he will eventually be in M1 range or that close that he almost cannot miss the shot, that was the problem with old slinger, why he was free and why they changed his wind up.
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there is no guaranteed hit in any of these powers. your definition of zoning is using killer power at this point. Your just making bad guesses towards killer powers and blaming the killer. that is whole new level of delusional. Zoning for me is prohibiting movement/actions. A trapper trap under a pallet is prohibiting my ability to go through pallet because result of going through pallet is an instant down. Its denying area. Old Deathslinger is not denying area, he is making shift-W a more skilful interaction for survivor. You making bad reads vs his gun is not zoning. Its just you playing bad vs the killer.
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Then you have a weird definition of zoning... For me zoning is just the process of forcing the survivor to not go somewhere by threatening him with your power.
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What are you even reading back when he had 0 wind up time xD To read something you would need information and when he can just instantly shoot you there is no behavior you could read.
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