How do we feel about Dead Hard now?
It's been some time since the nerf. I think we've all formed our opinions on it by now.
Personally, I still despise the perk. Is it better than before? Yes, but the Current Nurse is better than Release Nurse with 7 blinks. That doesn't mean it's okay.
The most obvious annoyance would be the uncounterable DH into a pallet. Hit them? You lose. Don't hit them? You lose. But let's ignore that for a moment. Let's delve into the most common counterargument.
"Just bait it out!"
Okay. Tell me how. No, really. Tell. Look at their back? That's not a bait. A bait would be a Billy revving their saw, making you vault the window, only to reveal they barely revved it so they could get an M1 on you. If I'm staring at their back, waiting for them to DH, I am not baiting the perk. I am waiting out the perk.
Am I being overly pedantic? I wouldn't say so. Baiting implies there is some sort of exchange or interaction taking place. If I'm waiting out a DH, I'm just... staring at their back. I would watch paint dry and it'd have the same effect.
Now, there are times when there's actual proper baiting. Wraith tapping M2, Blight bumping next to you instead of swinging at you, and I suppose (generously) Trickster throwing knives AROUND you instead of at you. The rest? Nope. Your M2 is likely countered, you can't lunge since they can react (if the servers work, anyway), and point blank is just... waiting.
It's just an unfun perk to go against... and also pretty annoying to use. Yes, I play survivor. Yeah, I know the feeling of DH-ing and still ending up on the ground because Dedicated Servers said no.
Comments
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I am perfectly fine with it as it is now.
Sure, there are situations where it becomes impossible to counter but every perk in the game has situations where you can't counter them. That's kind of the entire point of perks, to give you an advantage at a time when you normally wouldn't have an advantage.
I would take Nu DH in every single match on every single survivor rather than deal with old DH ever again
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We're fine with dh atm (sans the suspiciously always perfect ones). Its still a third health state but it's at least earned.
As an aside, why choose to bait it if you see what's about to happen? Just smack em, they dh, and now they're either with dw at a pallet, dw and booking it, dw booking it with a pallet down, or down bleeding.
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Dead hard is fine. If you time it right, you can still beat them at the pallet. I still use the flick up method to bait it, and it works. Most of the time, they try to spin me and DH at the same time, never works. As a blight main, I just take the extra bump to bait it, as you said.
Dead Hard really isn’t an issue anymore. If they pull off against me, fair enough. Most of the time, they don’t.
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I’m fine with it. Any time I get hit with DH I think about how sprint burst would’ve won them the chase before it even began
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Current Dead Hard is totally fine. Even at its most useful, the pallet exchange you detail up there, the killer is getting something out of the scenario no matter what happens, even if that thing isn't a down. Everywhere else, it's easy enough to bait and play around that actually swinging into a DH at this point makes me go "damn, respect" instead of making me mad.
Speaking of, there are a lot of ways to bait. Flicking your camera upwards seems to work consistently for some reason, I'm not totally sure what that looks like from the survivor side but it must be similar to the start of a weapon swing because it definitely works a pretty reasonable amount of the time.
A lot of killers have ways to bait with their power, too. Pretty much any "charge-up" type power can be used to bait.
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It's way better than before.
The DW status also guarantees a slight time burn if you're unable too secure a down/are forces to drop chase.
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The pallet on dh actually has counter baiting it out. If they use it at pallet expecting you to hit just wait that the endurance is over and hit them while they're locked in the animation. They usually drop the pallet still but you get hit through it. So it's not uncounterable but the counter is not easy and you have to quess when they're going to use it.
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It can be pretty annoying to deal with as killer but it is a hell of a lot better than it was before so I am kind of okay with it. Though I think anything that provides an extra health state is not necessarily a good thing.
However solo survivor is pretty rough at the moment so it is hard to feel DH is too strong for the current meta
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I still hate it tbh and still rather see 4 sprint bursts over 4 DHs. Mostly bc I don't like the whole waiting-it-out mindset. It's boring to have to rub yourself behind a survivor hoping they will dab soon. Also, I don't like how some animations override the DH animations like coughing from clown's bottles or PH trials. I really hate it in loops with pallets since it becomes a lose-lose situation for the killer. You either swing and hit the DH or don't swing and eat the pallet. Either way, the survivor is going to win and make it to another loop. That said I do agree it's better than old DH but that doesn't make it any more fun to go against or less annoying to deal with.
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I do not run it as a survivor and have not cared about it since it's nerf, I love Sprint Burst and it has been my go to for months now
When it comes to the killer side of end as Nurse it's annoying but not that annoying, I am still a Nurse and can catch up pretty fast
For me the biggest struggle has been going against it as a Demo, I just love to go for shred plays and I always get countered by DH
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Dead hard is in a much better spot, it still can be frustrating at times but not nearly as it was before the nerf.
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The perk is fine balance-wise but very boring to go against. DBD is supposed to be a fast-paced game but then you get into hit range as killer and you have to wait the survivor to do 10 spins before finally he finally decides to use his DH. It's very boring gameplay imo.
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Perfectly fine IMO as well. Before, it was a free safety net.
Now we all have to time our DHs and there's some element of skill involved. Its also hit and miss, you're not always going to get value out of it, there is no guarantee. A lot of good killers also wait/bait it out since they expect or assume its 1 of the perks you're running.
Its definitely annoying as killer, since every second counts but in terms of balance, its fine. There are ways around it but it is also rewarding for the survivor who successfully timed or 'guessed' when a killer would swing. In a good state now.
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inability to throw pallets for 0,5 seconds after its animation ends and it will be perfectly fine. it's a well earned 3rd health state now which is okay
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I am getting rather tired of it at this point. It's extremely frustrating committing to a chase vs a very good looper and they put you in a position where you have a split second opportunity to get that down. I swing, they scream as if they went down but soon I see them far away on their way to somewhere safe where I know I have to waste at least another 30 seconds to get the down.
Often I feel like I've lost the game in that instant as 2-3 gens have popped or are popping in the distance and I have absolutely no pressure to speak of. Almost always I have to give up the chase on that survivor and never commit to a chase on them again until their teammates are dead are dying. Often it's their teammates that die while the Dead Harder manages to escape. Heaven forbid I get a team of them, I might as well wait at the gate switch.
When I remember how I felt in those moments I don't blame killers for doing nasty crap like the 3gen strategy we have now.
I'm willing to be we have a very similar graph for Dead Hard now as we did pre-6.1.0. A solid slope up to probably 50% usage rate at top MMR.
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its fine, may be a little frustrating for both sides but a lot better than what old DH was.
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Better than before, but still unhealthy. This perk still has potential to put the killer in lose-lose situations
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I don't get how it's any better (I only play killer now and again and I don't use DH as survivor). Yeah that "dash" distance from old DH is removed. But if i attempted to hit a survivor with old DH then it would count as an actual hit with current DH. They gain a lot more distance now with new DH because they get the "killer hit" speed boost. Yes they now have a deep wound but that can be cured very quickly. I still think it's awful lol. Nearly all of my team mates and survivors I go against use it now, so it's 100% back into the meta (i've no issues with that if it wasn't such an annoying perk)
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I'm fine with it. The goal wasn't to break the perk, it was to reign it in slightly and open up more options.
BHVR succeeded, and I wish that this was their policy when it comes to killer perks (RIP Thana).
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There shouldn't be a perk in the game that would ALWAYS make the killers afraid to make a swing.
There shouldn't be a perk in the game that would make a killer breathe into the back of survivor's head for 5 seconds every time you overtake him.
The game should not have a perk that would prolong the chase 2-3 times by pressing a button. And, think about it, to be able to use it EVERY CHASE because it has a cooldown of only 40 seconds, it's just amazingly stupid.
And no, there is no real skill here to use this perk. The real skill is to resist this perk and beat it.
The game should not have a perk that would allow you to get up to 10 free hits to the survivors EACH MATCH.
In my games, about 60-70% of the survivors still use it, which suggests that it is at least no worse than it was before.
Anyone who plays both sides enough understands how broken this perk is.
There's only one bucket of ######### in the game that affects the game more than dh - it's a CoH.
The only way I see the existence of this perk in its current form is to make it highly rewarded for high risk. For example, be in chase for a minute, which will give you a token to use it. Or at least save the survivor from the hook. It shouldn't be an exhaustion perk. It has to be a perk that needs to be earned.
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0.5 sec is too low.
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I thought so initially. Then I got a feel for it, and - unless one of you is on dog poop levels of latency - it's fine. Anything more and it honestly might as well be automatic.
DH is a high risk/high reward perk. Getting hit by it as killer is punishing, possibly even more than before. But there is a lot more room for mistakes and counterplay.
Eh...it can be annoying, but the thing about DH is that if you bait it or outsmart it (much, much easier than before) it's suddenly a completely wasted ex perk.
Stuff like Lithe, BL, SB etc. are a lot more reliable - but have less of an impact in ideal situations.
DH is powerful, but risky.
I like it.
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its still ridiculous, no matter how many times they nerf it giving survivors another health state even if you need to time it is crazy
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The game would still be better off without it. Thankfully it isn't as much of a crutch now.
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i still HATE that perk with a burning passion unmatched. Only 2 killers in the game can counter that cursed perk without troubles and both are average/bad killers: legion (you can't use dead hard if you have already deep wounded by his frenzy) and deathslinger (like legion, his m2 will cause deep wound, so dead hard won't work). Aside those 2 killers, dead hard could be easily consided buffed: you have less time available to activate the perk, but the outcome will be a sprint burst after being hitted (AGAIN) and effectively a 3rd health state... i'll personally tunnel to death everyone who will use that perk (wanna be a tryharder? I can do the same, but then don't complain if i'll play optimally and i'll completely ignore your personal fun)
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Still my least favourite perk to play against as killer but no where near as frustrating as old DH for distance was.
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It's the most used survivor perk for a reason, as long as it exists the other exhaustion perks may as well be deleted. It has always been a terrible concept for a perk and no change can fix that.
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It's ok from my pov as a blight player, but blight can bait out dh better than any other killer in the game by far. Although it's still top of s. It's like if people think dh is ok don't complain about Pain res or eruption.
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I respect Dead Hard now. When a survivor uses it to soak a hit, I say to myself "Nice Dead Hard" because its not the super-annoying easy chase extender that it was before.
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Yeah. It forces killers to be afraid of lunging. Sometimes just swinging. It's funny how the higher your MMR is the longer survivors will wait, because they know killers expect Dead Hard. Not fun, and it's still very strong. Gut DH, Eruption and Pain Res for all I care.
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Its leagues and miles better then the old DH, were I got to a point were every game felt like torture and I died a little bit every time a survivor DHed to a palette or window, but after a somewhat long adaption period the new DH actually isn't that far off, again.
DH is miles ahead of every other exhaustion perk, is still (AGAIN) the most played survivor perk, you AGAIN are facing regularly 3-4 DH users in a single match and AGAIN the perk is sucking the fun out of the game. The short period directly after the 6.1 patch was SUCH a breath of fresh air. As the killer, if you cornered a survivor and caught up to them in a chase, you could just swing at them. What a novel, fun concept! The killer could just swing as survivors, so strings attached. Swoosh! And down. But alas, it didn't last long. At first it was just the obvious "180° turn into the killer" that you soon wisened up to, but over time a lot of survivors got the timing right and now we are basically back at step zero.
Well, its a bit better then old DH, ie you can't use for distance just like that anymore, and you can bait it out in certain situations, especially when you caught up to someone in the open, but most good survivors will use it skillfully in loops or to force the killer into lose/lose situations.
Two times, count it, two times, I was able to predict a survivor using DH before they vault and got them, but this is just opposed by probably hundreds of times were I got rekt by it.
In the past I was always defending the change they made to DH, claiming "wow, BHVR pulled off the impossible: they nerfed DH while simultaneously not nuking it form orbit, but making it fun and fair! Bravo!", but that was before savvy survivors learned how to use it correctly and now it just feels aweful again to be hit by it.
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As long as nurse is in the game, no one has the right to complain about DH. It’s the only thing stopping her from downing you in 10 secs. I’m okay with deleting DH if they remove nurse and nerf alchemist ring
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Got no issues with it now that you can't use it for distance anymore, i've seen a couple of suspiciously "perfect DH" but they're very rare.
More often than not, current DH users are incredibly overconfident if they ever land it once and then die because they try way too hard to land a second one during the match, wich leads to an easy down.
But on average most survivors always miss their DH or get baited into wasting it so it feels more like a waste of a perk than anything else.
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All BHVR need to do is add a cancel lunge feature to a killers lunge attack to better bait out a DH because as it stands now its potential to waste a killers time in chase is mad high.
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Think DH is fine all you want, that's your right. But please, don't defend BS because the other side has BS.
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By far my least favorite perk to go against, and that's saying something considering Eruption exists. A third health state on-demand is insanely powerful, easily enough to sway the outcome of an entire match with just one successful use. You not only get a free speed boost instead of going down but force the Killer to go into cooldown for nothing. Not to mention that now Killers are afraid to swing when they have a Survivor cornered, and need to take it into account anytime a Survivor is within reach.
Endurance is just too good to be an on-demand Exhaustion perk. It needs to either be one-use-only like Styptic, or only activate under very specific conditions like BT, OTR, Soul Guard, and WGLF.
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Didn't BHVR nerf it because they wanted to "shake" the meta?
Still seeing 3-4 DHs on every game. They did success with DS but not with DH.
It needs further nerfs. 1 second of making you unable to use pallets after using it would be fine.
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I have little to no issue with Dead Hard right now. Most survivors are just very obvious when they want to bait it.
Sometimes it can become frustrating but when I get fed up I just use something with deep wounds and laugh at them. This single change that you can no longer Dead Hard while deep wounded made it so much better for me.
As for baiting. Wraith is very good with this. Also sometimes you just have to swing and be unpredictable. Getting a reaction Dead Hard when you do not lunge is pretty much a high risk gamble in your favoure.
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This is literally what I created a topic about once: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/346703/it-was-the-best-month-in-the-game#latest
I feel you so much
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I agree with the idea, but you messed up the order a bit: As long as DH (and CoH) is in the game, no one has the right to complain about Nurse.
Bc Nurse is one out of 30 killers, when dh is still most common perk in the game.
Wish they rework this busted crap (Nurse, dh and coh) so hard
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nurse has a pick rate of around 1%. DH is around 50-60%.
try again.
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Uh... what? Where are you getting this?
Nurse's pickrate was last stated to be 5.36% (all MMR levels) and 6.12% (top 5% mmr). Even if we use Nightlight, it's 4.96%.
As for DH, we have no official stats on its usage. Only thing we have is Nightlight displaying a 30.03% pickrate.
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It's exactly as annoying before for the same reasons. Hug survivor's ass for year until they press E. Spin spin spin spin E. Greed loop then press E.
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The survivor loses collision when they're hit so you can just walk straight through them and hook so there's really no circumstance where you can body block the killer twice with a single person.
For Dead Hard, the perk still feels too good and is still incredibly annoying. It's definitely much better than it previously was, but I'm not sure if it's in a good spot. I'm not sure how else you could change it though without effectively making the perk useless or just deleting it so, if this is its final form, I think it's in a reasonably good spot.
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Better than the last version for sure, but still not good.
It requires much more skill now but is still too unbalanced at higher level play.
Essentially there's enough time to hit it before a lunge so in order to land a hit you're required to do a fast hit (non lunge). Here's the problem. This essentially lengthens the time to hit since you have to get right up on their back before you can swing, meaning more time to reach the window/pallet essentially giving them the extra dash distance old DH gave. So you're skill here as the killer is irrelevant, you're just hoping they get nervous and mess up by clicking it too early instead of waiting for your swing animation.
Then there's also the factor not relating to power and simply fun. Is it fun now that every single time a survivor is injured you have to get up on their back and play around the fact that they may have a single perk? It also makes it so that you can essentially no longer ever use a lunge attack on an injured survivor as killer because of that perk simply existing. Because of how long the lunge animation is the only time you are ever getting a lunge hit on an injured survivor that is running DH is if the survivor simply messes up, nothing to do with your skill as killer. This isn't even getting into killers that non lunge m1 hits are even rarer on such as Twins or Huntress for an example who rarely tap m1's, meaning their hits will be hit with DH almost 100% of the time being completely reliant on if the survivor just messes up.
That is straight up terrible design.
In high MMR DH single handedly wins games with how long it extends chases. One perk shouldn't have as large of an effect on a game as this one does.
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Doesn't matter how good the perk is, if I can't lunge because everyone might be running Dead Hard because of how popular it is then it needs fixed. And before you point fingers it's the exact same as Pain Res and the chance of triggering a skill check when letting go.
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This is so true. The last couple of days I had just aweful game after aweful game, forcing me to do what I actually didn't want to do: playing CoB/Eruption/Overcharge. This way I still have to eat every greeded palette on the map, get run for ages and DH x-times, but at least I can stall the game long enough to actually have a fair shot. And while a super strong combo, it didn't feel to me like I was handed a win on a silver platter. Yes, against weaker survivors it will leave them absolutely no chance, but against the murder squads that I was up to in the last couple of days, it felt just barely adequate.
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I'd gladly accept a full Nurse rework if they delete DH. I play both sides, and I completely understand the frustration with Nurse. And much like DH, the fact that Nurse takes skill to use is cold comfort for players on the receiving end of her.
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I mean its back in full swing, but I genuinely don't mind it. Didn't before either, less so now tho.
They don't make distance and it's short as heck, but when its forced at a pallet or whatnot sure, it sucks to lose a down but they also have to go waste time to mend if they happen to get away.
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I always think how some dbd skills would look in the movies.
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