Camping/Tunnelling counter mechanism
What's the counter to camping? It's "just do gens". And while that's in quotations, yes I'm serious. Every other 'penalty' for camping has been something that survivors can abuse and use offensively against lower skilled killers, and it's simply a fact that 'sometimes' camping and tunnelling is justified. Those times may be the exception, but they need to be possible.
So how do you make camping and/or tunnelling more costly, without penalising legitimate cases? You make it easier to "just do gens". You could do this by giving survivors a buff to gen speeds in cases of camping and tunnelling.
This could be a survivor equivalent to Bloodlust, call it... Determination. A will to survive, driving them to be more efficient.
Instead of affecting movement speed, it affects action speeds. This would include; repair speeds, healing speeds, unlocking speeds, unhooking speeds, vaulting speeds.
Determination level 1: +5% to all action speeds.
Determination level 2: +10% to all action speeds.
Determination level 3: +15% to all action speeds.
What triggers each level?
- When the killer has been within 16m of a hooked survivor for 20 cumulative seconds, Determination increases by 1 level.
- When the killer is further than 16m of a hooked survivor for 20 cumulative seconds, Determination decreases by 1 level.
- When a survivor is unhooked, Determination decreases back to baseline, unless another survivor is still on the hook.
- When a survivor has been sacrificed, Determination increases by 1 level permanently.
So how does this work?
Well if a killer either facecamps for 20 seconds, or spends 20s in total within 16m of the hook via proxy camping (it wouldn't reset if they go 17m away and then back), then all survivors in the game get +5% to action speeds. By the time 60s or one entire hookstate has passed, this would be up to +15% to all action speeds. This makes it easier to knock out gens while the killer is camping, ensuring that the killer isn't rewarded with multiple kills.
In addition, each sacrificed survivor increases the default level of Determination for the rest of the game. So if a survivor is tunnelled out of the game at 5 gens, the remaining survivors gain a permanent +5% buff to action speeds. This is a compounding effect with facecamping, as if 1 survivor is camped and tunnelled out of the game, and the killer continues to camp a second survivor out, that first 20s of facecamping will trigger Determination level 2 for +10% right away.
Additionally to the repair speed buff, the other significant aspect is the buff to unhooking speeds. If the killer is facecamping a lot, the survivors will have a better chance at securing the unhook. This means the killer could facecamp for 60 seconds, eliminate a hook state, but at that point on it will be much more difficult to keep that survivor on the hook, because a decent rescue play would be more likely to succeed. At that point, you've camped a survivor out, they've been rescued, and they're still not eliminated, meanwhile gens have been completed because you facecamped.
Finally, survivors would be made aware that a killer is facecamping, because they would see the buff for Determination appear on their screen. Notifying them that the killer has been camping for 20s by that point. So the survivors who haven't already made their way to the hook, can stay on gens knowing that that is the correct play. This would ultimately serve as a sort of delayed basekit Kindred, minus the auras of other survivors.
Pros:
- This makes camping and tunnelling less profitable for killers, because there's a greater chance all the gens will be repaired if the survivors play it right. If it's less profitable and results in fewer kills, then it won't happen as much.
- It makes 'hopeless' games where survivors are eliminated early less 'hopeless' and may encourage survivors to stick around instead of giving up.
- It can't be 'abused' by survivors, because the effect is less than what could be provided by one whole survivor. So if a survivor is baiting the killer to loop around a hook, that's one fewer survivors on gens anyway, which is much less than the 15% buff.
- Likewise, because the effect is less than what one whole survivor could contribute, it's not 'punishing killers for winning'. Killers still gain an advantage by eliminating survivors, it's just slightly less of an advantage, so that it doesn't automatically turn the tide of the game.
- This doesn't significantly affect camping during the EGC, because gens are already repaired. Unhooks might get easier, but hook trades should still be just as likely.
- Ultimately, this is a way of 'levelling the playing field' as the killer makes significant advances that would otherwise be too much for the survivors to overcome, reducing the 'snowball effect'.
Cons:
- This could potentially make some aspects of endgame more slightly difficult for killer, such as when only one or two survivors remain and they get a +10%/+15% increase to gate unlocking speed. This may or may not be 'fine' as it is, but if it's not, then simply increasing the time it takes to unlocks the gates could be a decent move. This would further balance the state of the game for when all four survivors do make it to end game, so that four survivors need to spend 22s opening an exit, while two survivors would take 20s, and one survivor would take 19s.
- These values are only based on theory, so the actual values could be something else that's a bit more suitable. Maybe 4% per level, or 6% per level, depending on how it works out. Or a different radius.
Comments
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24m is a Huge area and would result in people getting the buff nearly constantly. You claim it cannot be abused, but it clearly can as good survivors could setup a save / trade in time and loop in such a huge area for the buff. There are so many maps and situations where this would negatively impact those that aren't camping.
Want to make camping less effective; simply increase the hook stage timers. Far less intrusive and problematic across the board. It gives people time to do gens, reset, etc. to coordinate a save, with pretty much zero chances of punishing people that aren't camping.
Additionally reduce the snowball effect and reduce the effect of people successfully being killed just guts any close games into a survivor favored situation. The whole game of killers rely on snowballing at some point in order to have a comeback, it guts that principal. Having mechanics only adress the one side getting ahead while nothing is done for the other is a horrible idea. It bails out survivors significantly if they messed up and punishes killers that played well. Even out the playing field ... What is the equivalent the other way around? Did a gen a killer gets 5% movement speed, vault speeds, hit recovery reduction, pick up and hook speeds?
Want to reduce the effectiveness of tunneling, go look at what the comp players do. The effectiveness of tunneling is literally based on ones ability to loop and their teammates ability to take a hit and protect them.
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It can't be abused because 2 survivors on gens with +15% is less effective than 3 survivors on gens without +15%.
You need to sacrifice 100% repair efficiency to 'set up' this 'abuse' in order to gain 15% profit.
For the exact same reason, it doesn't punish killers who do well or reward survivors who don't, because 15% is less than 100%. One survivor being alive is much more valuable than the potential 15% buff.
Currently, if one survivor dies or DCs, everyone just gives up and it's an instant 4K. That's busted and needs fixing.
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Mmmh? But if they are chasing someone they aren't camping or tunneling, yet the team would get a buff to knock out the last 1 or 2 gens in peace and providing more time to get a save on the person after the objective is completed.
The issue is that it punishes people that aren't doing what you want to punish. Provides temporary buffs during a match as well making gens go quicker. I chase the nearest survivor to a fresh hook, in the time it takes someone else to show up for the safe save, as the killer is chasing someone else, the gen jockey gets a random 5 to 10% buff.
You can state well that is sacrificing the work of the other survivors, but those wouldn't be on gens regardless. Because you have 1 on the hook, 1 in chase, 1 going for the save and 1 on a gen... Just doing what they would do normally to progress their objective quicker.
Getting someone on a hook, means 2 people won't be on gens. Chasing someone else means you pull more people off gens ... Yet now the survivors get a buff for you not camping and tunneling.
Consider you have the last 3 gens in a 48m area and hook someone somewhere near the center ... The killer literally would need to go sit in a deadzone or camp it out because the mechanics would prevent you from defending the gens.
So... Yeah it is abused.
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Are you accounting for the 20s it takes to trigger? And then the effect is only active as long as the survivor is on the hook. It's a lot of set up to intentionally abuse, trying to instigate this for a mere +5% buff to repair speeds for about 20s simply isn't worth it for survivors to strive for.
And typically a survivor looping the killer around a hooked survivor is a detriment, because it means other survivors can't make the save. Leaving that survivor hanging on the hook for almost an entire hook state just so your ONE gen jockey can get +5% is less preferable over simply rescuing that survivor and getting back on gens as quick as possible.
Currently, 3 gen scenarios with a campable hook in the middle form a stalemate that is unwinnable for survivors. This would be a good thing, and still not all survivors would be able to pull this off.
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This response showcases that you want a baseline buff to survivors.
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And that's hilarious because I'm mostly a killer main. I came up with this specifically because all of the other suggestions to prevent camping/tunnelling would be busted and abusable by survivors. Things like pausing hook timers, teleporting hooks, etc.
Even your suggestion of "just extend hook phases" wouldn't do anything. It would just make the "hanging on the hook is boring" problem worse, because it would take longer. Survivors hooked would give up more often and give the killer free kills, meanwhile other survivors would feel less pressure to go for the rescue, meaning you're applying less pressure as killer.
As a killer (who doesn't camp or tunnel) I'd welcome this system. I'd also like a whole host of other killer buffs too but that's not the topic. And as a solo survivor I'd like to have games that aren't over the second someone gets hooked.
I'm also against the basekit Unbreakable, and the finisher mori system is too restrictive. Is that enough for you?
It's pathetic how killer/survivor mains see an argument or suggestion that they assume suits the opposite camp, and immediately go into us vs them mode. I shouldn't have to defend myself like this and explain my stance on all the different issues with survivor and killer in order to evade these accusations.
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Extending the timer on hook does nothing? What? It gives survivors more time to deal with the situation and get more gens done against campers. Literally making the counter do gens while they don't pressure the team more effective. The argument but people just rage quit and kill themselves isn't a valid counter, because if as a survivor you aren't willing to hang on a hook to help your team... That is on you for rewarding the killer that camps. Those that do it now aren't willing to wait the 2 mins already, so nothing really changes.
Your system also reduces the pressure from the killer, it is your main argument, it is to reduce the effectiveness of snowballing, camping, tunneling, general gameplay even. By providing a buff to survivors when the killer does well.
The increased time means less pressure to go for the save, euhm the same applies to your suggestion as it benefits one to wait a bit and setup a save after the 20 sec mark. Also an increase in the timer promotes the killer to find someone else, they get less pressure from hanging around the hook as survivors can wait longer; it works both ways. People that will camp will camp, but your suggestion kicks in those cases up you claim should still be viable... "Those times may be the exception, but they need to be possible."
You don't get how efficiency works or something or how incredibly huge the area is you are suggesting. It is pathetic that you are making this into an us vs them conversation I agree. I stated the more obvious and less problematic way to address camping and that buffs survivors. Someone just calling you out for suggesting a buff to survivors that would be base line instead of your suggested being just anti camp and tunnel doesn't make it an us vs them.
I stated it would kick in during gameplay where killers are not camping and tunneling, be it chasing someone else, protecting gens/area... You know the "Those times may be the exception, but they need to be possible." Situations...
Twist it as you may, but I didn't make it us vs them.
Post edited by Kalinikta on1 -
So if Survivors swam the hook and I have to defend it, the Survivors get a free action speed bonus.
this is not a good idea.
This would make a great perk tho.
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If they swarm the hook, then who gets the benefit? They are obviously not doing gens.
This does not mean I endorse the idea, just that your argument is flawed
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You can use the beneficial buff later, so it would not be flawed.
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No, it would dissipate after the survivor is unhooked, or 20s after the killer leaves the area.
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yeah thats broken, force the killer to camp for 60 seconds and you have a min of 15% speed.
There is no reason to punish the killer for this.
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Er... no? Math? Hello?
For that you would need to force a killer for camp for 60s, then leave the survivor on the hook for a further 60s (so leave them to die).
So you give up a minute of repairs (and a survivor) to get 15% for 20s, 10% for a further 20s and 5% for a further 20s?
You realise that's a massive loss right?
You can't significantly profit by abusing this as a survivor. There is absolutely no way survivors are benefitting from forcing a killer to camp this way, you will gain a much bigger advantage by A. just doing gens, or B. actually rescuing the survivor.
And sure, maybe 24m is a bit too big, make it 16m like Kindred then.
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