The Knight, What Went Wrong?

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StarLost
StarLost Member Posts: 8,077

I'd say that BHVR have an interest pattern for a bit, usually with 2 good killers, then a bad or mediocre one.

Cenobite - decent.

Artist - amazing.

Onryo - awful

Dredge - Brilliant

Wesker - Best licensed killer to date

Knight - Ugh. While he wasn't unplayable on release, he's...just bad? Nice visual design, but his kit feels clunky and pretty useless under the current meta, unless you're going for an extremely tedious campy or 3-genny playstyle.

Not sure if he needs a buff, a rework, or maybe 3 of his addons baked in baseline Ghostface, Pig or Demogorgon style, but he needs something, because this is the fastest I've ever put a killer down since I started.

He's...okay starting out, but the second you face teams that know what they are doing, you just feel like your power may as well not exist, outside a fast pallet break every few decades.

Well, at least Wesker is a lot of fun and Knight has one decent perk.

Comments

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,582
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    ... not to be too rude but how many knight posts have you made within the last 2 weeks?

    To answer you BHVR wanted to do something complex and cool without it being overpowering. They therefore added alot of handicaps. Still, could've been worse.

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    Three?

    One asking for tips, one outlining my experiences after substantially more time, and one giving feedback on the killer himself in relation to other recent killers.

    Why?

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,582
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    Every post bout the knight we've bothered to look at has a hag profile pic and a name with S. We thought it was you each time X}

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    Haha, I try not to - but the other thread I had up didn't really fit well with what I wanted to say here.

    If you're good though, I'll make a 4th tomorrow, just for you :)

  • Moxie
    Moxie Member Posts: 806
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    I feel Knight is similar to Twins. They wanted to be ambitious, allowing the Killer to "be in multiple places at once". I think it was a really cool concept on paper.

    Unfortunately, the most efficient way to play the game does not coincide with how to play these Killers.

    That is taking the massive bugs out of the equation.

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    It's not even 'most efficient'.

    It would work if the summons could actually catch someone, or came out faster/activated faster, or he had some other aspect to his kit.

  • egg_
    egg_ Member Posts: 1,933
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    When you say good do you mean it in terms of strength or design?

    Because in terms of design, I have something to say about your grades given to the first 3 killers lol

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    Both, honestly, but more design.

    Cenobite - incredibly thematically true to the films (especially once the voicing was back in). Chains are a bit tough to land, but powerful when combined with the Box. The Box is one of the most creative killer mechanics I've seen.

    He needs a bit of love, but he's not weak.

    Artist - brilliant killer. Some folks don't like her, I know, but I find her incredibly nuanced and a ton of fun to both face and play as. About the only area she loses points is her crap addons.

    Onryo - Okay visuals. Awful sound effect on striking, and I don't like her 'projectile'. Otherwise, her kit is a mess and she's really weak on top of it. It felt like she was a buggy beta version of Dredge. Her numbers are being buoyed by one or two very gimmicky builds, much like Myers.

  • Emoba
    Emoba Member, Alpha Surveyor Posts: 514
    edited December 2022
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    Complex? They did their best to make Knight's kit the LEAST complex possible, mate. Knight is their long-awaited attempt at making a summoner-type killer and they utterly failed at it due to how basic and restricted his design and the clear lack of uniqueness between each of the three guards (who basically are the same exact unit with different stats). The fact that he doesn't even have a CTRL ability (that could be used to switch guards at will or cancel a patrol from distance) says it all.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,582
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    Less complex than trapper or billy? Really? Making a killer who can summon 3 goons with different values and 1 with an extra ability is less complicated than making one who places traps... We must be insane to think knight is complex...

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 7,032
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    what were you expecting? The ability to summon a wizard that summons lightning bolts from the sky at generators? An archer that snipes survivors for you and hulk that charges at pallets smashing anything that gets in his way? I think they would been just fine with 1 unit personally.

    I think all dbd killer are creative designs. Strength wise. its little bit less then ideal.

  • edgarpoop
    edgarpoop Member Posts: 8,092
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    People understand that. But players don't want to play that style of game on either side for the most part. If we're asking what went wrong, we can honestly start there. They designed a killer power nobody really wanted. Strategic killers are historically unpopular.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,582
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    Least you understand that some killers require more thought than others. We've seen people call killers like artist, blight, and twins brain dead no skill

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    I've spoken at length about Sadako in multiple threads. But in a nutshell:

    • Only viable with one or two extremely unfun gimmick builds that could be better called 'haha everyone depips'.
    • Janky teleporting that is extremely reliant on RNG.
    • So small that it's impossible to see anything on grassy maps unless you set the game to Low and gives you motion sickness.
    • Weak power that's almost useless in chase unless you equip mandatory addons.
    • Mandatory brown addons to make her feel even slightly decent.
    • Completely incompatible with the current Hold W then use Ex perk meta.

    Not saying she's the worst killer ever made (that's probably Trapper) or even the worst recent killer (that goes to Knight). But she still sucks.

    And yes, some people might be okay with a killer that sucks, because they like the visuals or being a snowflake, but some people like Adam Sandler movies, and that doesn't mean Adam Sandler movies aren't terrible.

  • Grumblephant
    Grumblephant Member Posts: 73
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    Love the design on the Knight. The idea about summoning backup is amazing and stopping/mindgaming loops is cool.

    But he just gives too much info to survivors, a buff, and buggy above all else. I know they can never kill every bug, but that's a huge turnoff for me from buying him.

    If every killer had the same weaknesses as the Knight, most players would play survivor. I'm not even talking competitive, I'm just saying from a fun viewpoint. I want my Survivors to not know what I'm gonna do next. They can leave the banner to dismiss the summon, BHVR can leave the ghost trail. I just want the buff removed and the summon radius gone.

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    Absolutely, yes.

    It's not about the complexity of the numbers. The numbers are easy to work out, and the game basically handholds you with 'this is the breaker guy, this is the chase guy, this is the patrol guy'.

    What makes Trapper a lot more complex to play is that you need to know which traps are worth retrieving at any point in time, where to put them on every map, which also depends on tiles and which gens are done, and then how to chase people into them.

    Knight's entire playstyle could probably be written as a single If/Then/Else statement.

    Nobody is saying that Knight is too complex. He's not complex at all - and that's the problem.

    Yes, a killer that can't hook, down and chase is going to be a bad killer, because *that's literally what a killer does*. It's like saying 'oh, this vacuum cleaner you bought doesn't clean, but we're not taking it back because it's great for holding up your wobbly table'.

    Do you stream? Because I'd love to see the survivors you're facing or if you're just doing something vastly different to me.

    • You send the Carni off to kick a gen. This does nothing, because survivors will immediately be back on it. So you save it for a pallet break. Only now, you're an M1 killer until Meg drops a pallet. Yawn.
    • You send Jailor off to patrol gens. He doesn't last long, and survivors can just avoid him with the massive, visible ring. And you're an M1 until he's done. Your power, once again, has done literally nothing but stall the game out a few seconds.
    • I don't think your strawman here is representative of either me or literally anyone I've seen trying to play Knight.
    • Pincer method doesn't work unless the survivor is silly and tries to loop you around a large structure and continues to do so while being pursued. A savvy survivor just runs off the second he hears the summon start, and by the time you've caught up you needn't have bothered.
    • Yes, maps with unsafe locations are fantastic, aren't they? Tell me, where exactly do you push someone to on Cowshed, Mother's Dwelling, Badham and Eyrie?

    Sure, some people can do well as Knight. But those people can also do as well, and probably better, on literally any other killer in the game.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,582
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    At the risk of going off topic:

    While map dependent, sadako is viable without the sluggy condemned build (we don't know what the second build your thinking of is)

    The sight and motion sickness is different from person to person. We don't get motion sick from her (though we go blind on Ormond due to it being BRIGHT de manifested)

    She has about as much power in chase as gf

    Don't think add ons are mandatory, though they make playing her more enjoyable

    ...hold w happens to everyone who doesn't have mobility for chasesp

    What is sucks and doesn't is personal opinions.

    All said and done we don't need a 4th knight post as this one is thriving XD

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    • The maps where Sadako is decent are maps where almost all killers are decent. It's less Sadako being good as the map being bad.
    • GF has substantially better chase, because you get a free approach (why does Sadako need a lullaby again?) and, if you're playing right, often an instant down. That's massive.
    • No, some things objectively suck. Just because some odd people enjoy them doesn't mean they don't suck (see again, my Adam Sandler Movies analogy).
  • UnknownKiller
    UnknownKiller Member Posts: 3,024
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    Complex and cool have to be powerful or we get a high risk low reward power and thats definetely out of meta

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,582
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    We're gona have to disagree on ring child as we feel we both would end up going round and round if we keep going

    As for complexity, we're going to hard stand that yes, knight is more complex than trapper. Trapper requires brains, but so does knight. Who you have at the ready where you are and what needs done now. Carnifex up and there's an annoying survivor you need to keep busy? Send him and go check other tasks. Stabby man (don't know the name) up instead? Send him and chase. You gotta keep multitasking.

    Trapper? Get and set traps where you think you need them then get survivors to the landmine zone. Repeat. This is not taking into account coding complexity. Overall we're calling knight more complex.

    We may be crazy, but we do have a point.

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    Eh.

    Trapper is less mechanically complex than knight, but that's not important at all.

    In terms of gameplay? Trapper is miles more complex on a simple decision making level.

    Uh...not sure how much Trapper you've actually played at a moderate MMR, because that'll only work if you're playing against potatoes.

  • HectorBrando
    HectorBrando Member Posts: 3,167
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    Making a power depending on AI is what went wrong. AI is hard to code even when its just "if you detect enemy attack at a distance" coding it to follow a Survivor dodging all debris on the map is much harder than coding almost anything else.

    Nemesis zombies were just a warning, their pathfinder is buggy as hell but since they are a minor aspect of its power people dont really pay that much attention to how poorly they perform, but on the Knight they are the main and only thing so all the problems shine like a supernova.

  • SMitchell8
    SMitchell8 Member Posts: 3,301
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    If the guards get buffed, Knight wins as do the survivors as it would encourage Knights to go after players instead of playing for a 3 gen.

    I have no trouble having guards find survivors as I play him like a foresighted Spirit, but the guards don't do well enough alone thus having to commit to 2 v 1's.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,582
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    We played plenty. On simple decision making (where simple implies less complex mind you) we want you to please explain what you mean.

    (Not sure why this is bugging him so much, but surprisingly it is so good job)

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    Ah, just realized I was being baited.

    No worries. Well played I guess.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,582
    edited December 2022
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    (sadly he really wants an in-depth explanation, there's 2 of us here and he's, as in the usual talking one, literally flipping me off for asking for him)

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    Yeah, stream. Very curious as to how you're beating a decent 4man on Knight on Mother's Dwelling (yes, that was my afternoon and why I'm fiddling on the forums instead).

    Legion? Sure. Pretty simple.

    Wraith? Ehh...at the higher end he has a surprising amount of nuance and complexity, in terms of bodyblocking pallets, how to approach and when to decloak.

    Do they? The game is pretty up front about what those guards are for - although they could probably be more accurately described as 'use this guy to break pallets', 'use this guy to chase' and 'use this guy on basically anything to get back to the break pallets guy'.

    I've not only been playing Knight, I've been watching Otz's and Tofu's Knight videos and...they are obviously better players than me, but they aren't doing anything that different - they're just better at the M1 killer chase thing.

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    Shrug. I'm not going to pretend to like something or think it's good because other people do, or because 'negativity'. Only giving positive feedback is seldom productive. We'd have to see what the kill rates look like next time BHVR gives us the stats, but I'd be amazed if Knight isn't really far down.

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    Sadako's numbers are being thrown off by two very stupid gimmick builds, much like Myers and TSP.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,582
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    We have reach the wall point ladies and gentlemen and all in-between

  • squbax
    squbax Member Posts: 1,345
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    Because people are awfull at the game, if sadako got such a high killrate with the suposed best 5% of the playerbase, it shows maybe that 5% isnt even good at the game, sadako is a free escape, maybe a 1k on shelter woods or if she camps, anything more than that means survivors were memeing/throwing.

    Altho I must say the condemned playstyle is one of my favourite things to watch ever, somehow people manage to turn a meme killer into and actual killer by basically designing a new way to play the game, pretty smart tbh.

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    Without actually seeing any of your games, I wouldn't know. It could be a variety of things.

    Again, I'd have to see his games to know if maybe he's in an odd MMR spot, exaggerating or what have you.

    Have been watching some CC videos and I'm astonished at how hard it can be to beat a really solid SWF without a tip top tier killer for even the best killers around.

  • squbax
    squbax Member Posts: 1,345
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    First off I wanna preface the orestige does correlate to skill in many cases, but you can play and waste a lot of bp and still be awfull at the game.

    With that said, I have watched the video, multiple times actually, and I really do not think they are as good as you think they are, first off they got downed by an m1 killer in a very well connected tile system, im talking about the first nea and the first down on the legacy dwight as main examples but not all, no half decent player gets downed by a simple m1 killer with good tiles.

    Secondly they failed for incredibly easy to counter mindgames and didn't use deadhard in a way that forced you to activate it, ill give it to them, in counted times during the match they couldnt use deadhard that way, so thats fine, but when they could they didn't and that costed them downs that should not have happened.

    And finally HOW on earth you get suprised by a killer that literally announces they are sneaking on you? Like the has a directional sound where she demanifests/manifests, and when she tps, on top if that she has a lullaby that tells you she is close, I cannot call someone good when they can get jumped by an onryo ( but maybe they were listening to music so in that case yeah its fine)

    Now with everything said, that sadako build and playtyle is incredibly strong, why? Because even the 5% "best" players, somehow manage to die to sadako, meaning that there is such a low quantity of good players that I would bet you can probably play about 300 matches before you actually face a team that knows how to play the game, making a player that is good with meme killers like sadako a force to be reckoned with, because even tho they are easy to beat if you understand the game, the players who do are very few.

    Hell I bet trapless trapper can still get a killrate over 50% because of how clueless people are.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 4,947
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    It would help a lot if the survivors couldn't see where you are placing the frigging green orb. Once again, the survivors have ALL the infos about the killers power, while the killer is info-starved.

  • TheMruczek
    TheMruczek Member Posts: 187
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    Basicly they repeated the Sadako situation all over again.

    They though that the power would be extremely op to newer player and so they limited it.

    I mean Knight is in far better shape than Sadako but jeez, rn we have 2 amazing killers in terms of visual and sound design with very very disappointing powers.

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    Thanks! This was actually a really interesting game.

    A few things though. Let's dig in and respond to your - well, your response.

    *Dusts off old Starcraft 2 Commentator hat*...

    • This was one game. I'll have to catch your stream sometime after the holidays to get a better sample size.
    • This specific game felt less like Sadako being amazing and more 'if you're good, survivors are running around like headless chickens and your mindgames work, you can do well on any killer'.
    • What about this game would have been different, had you, say, been playing, say, Myers? I see maybe 2 moments when a teleport yielded anything useful.
    • That crucial fast first down was a combination of a good mindgame from you and that Nea making a silly mistake because she was trying to be fancy.
    • Ditto that second Nea with some really dumb plays and then a pointless Dead Hard.
    • Third down against that Dwight - he ran right into you while looking behind him. Again - great work on the mindgame, but you weren't even invisible there.
    • 4th down, Dwelf. He seems to be completely outclassed here.
    • 5th down, they have already lost the game at 4 gens. A ridiculously bad rescue leading to an exchange, what on earth were they thinking?
    • 6th down. You mess up and nearly let the Nea escape, chasing shadows. However, this entire section of the map is now basically a wasteland and she has to go miles to find a single pallet. I'm no expert on seeds, but had this been Garden of Joy or Eyrie, you'd have been SOOL here. Nea drops another pallet and rather than playing safe, she stands around. Confusing.

    Not going too far into the rest of the game, as you've already won here - they've crumbled and most of their resources are depleted. Rather than trying to get into main building or something, they run out into nowhere and go down.

    Postgame:

    • One solid Nea, one okay Nea. One newer Dwight and one intermediate Dwight, probably in a SWF judging how the Dwelf's silly altruism basically cost them the game. Hardly the 'max level team' it says on the cover.
    • One survivor didn't even have max level perks, and the loadout was clearly a mixture of 'fun' builds and serious builds.
    • Double CoH = redundancy. This was not a 'team', this was random.
    • Aside from the P100 Nea, they were completely and utterly outclassed here. Not going to make any accusations about MMR tanking, but you'd have smashed them on basically any killer, and much faster on most.
    • Your Sadako kit barely helped you here, aside from the aura addon and maybe two moments where a teleport got you a faster chase.
    • I like your build idea a lot.
    • I'd have been curious to see how this match plays out on Cowshed, or Garden.
    • This game demonstrates the big issue of DbD - a lot of games are decided before the match starts where a bunch of randoms get thrown into the meat grinder.


  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    Hmm, not sure why you're being hostile here - maybe you misinterpreted what I was saying? Or maybe I'm reading it wrong. Anyhoo...

    Looking at these ones:

    • Myers game was very clearly a group of survivors far below your skill level, as you remarked at the end. What I meant was that, in the first Sadako game, you didn't win because of your kit, you won because you outplayed them and the game wouldn't have looked much different for the most part on any other 'weaker' killer.
    • Still - yay, VM+DR is one of the most enjoyable builds in the game.
    • Second Sadako game was interesting.
    • Wretched Shop, I think? Again, the map was really gentle here. Do you have any matches against strong SWFs on a more difficult map? Preferably Eyrie, Garden or Cowshed, as these are the maps where M1 killers struggle? That's what I'd be curious to see.
    • I prefer the original build, to be honest - not a fan of Deadlock with a regression perk as there's a bit of an anti-synergy there. But you seem to know what you're doing.
    • I run PR+DMS on her too for a similar reason. Going to try out PR+DMS+BBQ+LP on Sadako in a bit, as I like the idea of using it to teleport after a hook. May try Floods of Rage instead of BBQ too.
    • That Leon cost them the game trying to be BM and going down when he shouldn't have. That one hook completely changed the flow of the game. Well played though.
    • My point isn't that people can't succeed on Sadako. My point is that Sadako's kit sucks, and someone that wins on her could probably win just as easily/even easier on almost any other killer (Trapper is still worse).

    Thanks for the fun games though, I'll try to catch one of your streams when I have the time.

  • Donleov
    Donleov Member Posts: 117
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    I have been playing him a lot, he's far from a bad killer.

  • StarLost
    StarLost Member Posts: 8,077
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    Shrug.

    As I keep saying, 'this killer isn't good' =/= 'this killer makes it impossible to win'.

    I'm saying that the Knight is crap. His kit is crap and he feels like crap to play. Much like Trapper and a few others. He so often plays like a standard M1 killer and using his power is the wrong choice.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,582
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    Well he basically is a m1 killer, he just has utility drones. He's got a way to do multiple things and force people off loops but he's just a m1 at the end for most chases (or an instant down for cornered rats). Its just most people will use his power in chase and think it'll solve everything.