Sadly Off The Record is becoming essential but also...
anyone else feel like DS needs a longer stun as well?
If tunnelling off hook is going to become a new low in the history of the DBD meta, we need to have an effective arsenal to punish this unpleasant tactic and DS used to be a deterrent . But anyone who has used current DS has no doubt discovered pretty quickly that 3 seconds is useless in almost every situation and against
All other conditions of DS should remain but the stun should return to 5 seconds in my opinion. Tunnelling in public matches is almost always completely unnecessary and it should be punished as DS once did.
Comments
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They made the problem and sold the solution with OTR.
I mean, hey, they DID shake up the meta-- now you don't use DS, because they just gave you something that works better and works twice.
The powered gates stipulation was all they needed. 5 seconds and some killers might actually notice when they get hit by it.
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DS is currently being used as an offensive perk to "recharge" Dead Hard through it's ability to remove the Deep Wound status. I find it always paired with Dead Hard and usually the survivor does every toxic thing to actually try to get the killer to tunnel them and also they stack other second chance perks like Off the Record and Adrenaline. Buffing DS would buff these players.
DS needs to be reworked if it is actually meant to be used as an anti-tunneling perk.
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Yeah I agree but even then OTR doesn't seem to deter tunnelling at present but if the threat of DS returned I think it would as it would be just too much hassle to intentionally tunnel people off hook. However at present the chances someone is running DS are pretty slim as the perk is essentially useless and not worth it
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It was. Like, 5 times. Now it's about as anti-tunnel purposed as it can get. Except it's worse than the other perk.
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Fair point but I think most people are just casuals who want to play the game and not be tunnelled off hook. I don't care if other changes are added but there really needs to be more of a disincentive for tunnelling off hook. I understand it is a valid tactic but it is also a very nasty one that sucks the fun out of matches and creates a whole bunch of negativity and toxicity DBD really doesn't need
Edit: I think the changes did make it anti tunnelling though, it was definitely abused before with survivors doing gens in your face etc... but they sorted that out imo
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It basicly depends where you hit the DS. If there's a save pallet near (remember, you get like 15-20m distance after the stun), DS can be still strong. Windows really helps here.
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Oh of course, which is why I used the phrase "in almost every situation" as there will be those rare occasions where you do get value. But they are rare as you usually don't go down in a perfectly convenient location
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I believe they should make the haste effect permanent when off the hook until you do a conspicuous action. That way you at least have a chance to run the killer if they hard tunnel you.
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Maybe if they put DS to 5 seconds Killers might actually consider not tunneling. OTR is easily countered by hitting off hook. And I can't use Dead Hard with it. Cool.
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DS should be reverted and should activate twice during the match. OTR is a trash anti-tunneling perk that gives value when you aren't being tunneled but coordinate with your team to take hits for one another. Also, remove the skillcheck, there is no need for that.
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I agree with both of these suggestions, tunnelling off hook needs to be heavily discouraged to the point it is so not worth it people stop doing this in public matches.
I understand that killer matches can be tough, I just had two of my own that were rough (no kills first, 2x for second with safety pip only) but I still win 90% of my matches without tunnelling or camping. There is no excuse really and I think it should rightly be punished to discourage it
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The thing is, OTR is the best tool against tunneling, but it is not really good. All Anti-Tunnel measures which are somewhat meaningful (this does not include DS, this is a joke at this point) resolve around Endurance. And one Hit after the Unhook and ALL of them are gone - the Basekit-Endurance, potential BT, potential DH, potential OTR. So there need more measures which are Anti-Tunnel, but dont use Endurance.
Reverting the DS-Stun to 5 seconds should be a minimum that should happen. And in fact, it should have increased its Anti-Tunnel capacity once they nerfed it that it cannot be used in Endgame (which was totally fine). Because a DS which deactivates on anything AND is deactivated in Endgame AND is at 5 seconds was nothing anyone complained about. But, as we know, to "change" the Meta, some Perks just got nerfed into Oblivion to make them unattractive to use. DS is one of them.
In the end, current DS grants the Survivor around 7 meters of distance. The Stun is 3 seconds, 1,3 seconds are used for the animation, so 1,7 seconds can be used for distance, which results in around 7 meters. This is barely anything. If I see DS used in games (by other Survivors or against me), the Killer really catches up way too quickly.
IMO DS can be changed to let the Stun Time be depending on the number of Gens left. Number of Gens x 2 seconds = Stun Time. So:
- 5 Gens left --> 10 Second Stun
- 4 Gens left --> 8 Second Stun
- 3 Gens left --> 6 Second Stun
- 2 Gens left --> 4 Second Stun
- 1 Gen left --> 2 second Stun
- 0 Gens left --> deactivated
This would punish a Killer very heavily who wants to tunnel right at the start to turn the game into an easy 3v1 which the Survivor cannot win anymore. But once the Killer needs a Survivor out of the game, because they lost some Gens, DS is not that useful anymore. E.g. at 4 seconds it would be barely stronger than now and with 2 seconds, it would basically be useless.
This would also be in line with what Killers say when they say they HAVE to tunnel. They will be able to do so, when the game gets close for them. But if they try it earlier, there is a harsh penalty for it. (And no Killer HAS to tunnel at 5 Gens and if they get a 10 second Stun because of this, this is completely their own fault)
But yeah, the bare minimum would be to buff DS back to 5 seconds. But, this will not happen, because then people would play DS and the Devs did not "change" the Meta.
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Sadly there are players that will never use these anti-tunnel perks as they are meant and that's why buffing them will backfire.
It happened with DS and now it happens with OTR. Using them aggressively incentivises tunneling beyond reason. If I have to eat your DS anyway, why wouldn't I tunnel you out, then? OTR is the same. Someone gets unhooked and if the killer doesn't hit them, they will be healed and go for a 2 hit bodyblock.
There is a solution but not everyone is going to like it. The killer gets an incentive to go for someone else and OTR makes survivors lose their collision with the killer completely.
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"Someone gets unhooked and if the killer doesn't hit them, they will be healed and go for a 2 hit bodyblock."
This would mean that the Survivor is not doing anything for 60 seconds and in those 60 seconds, they get healed by a third Survivor (assuming that the Killer goes after the person who unhooked the Survivor who now has OTR) AND gets into the Chase and all of that in 60 seconds.
I mean... This is a bit of a stretch.
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I really like this idea, punishing harshly those who will tunnel at say 5 gens when clearly there is no justifiable reason is a necessary evil at this point as far as I am concerned.
The devs probably don't want to revert back to 5 seconds as you say but at the very least they need to address the endurance issue with OTR so a tunnelling killer can still be punished with DH should they choose to pursue the hard tunnel off hook.
Something needs to change, I know that much...
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Didn’t the devs revert DMS/Pain Resonance? I don’t see why they can’t revert DS.
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Yeah, but they reverted DMS/Pain Resonance because Pain Resonance had a problem with Merciless Storm. When you get hit by Pain Resonance during the phase Merciless Storm was active, you keep having Merciless Storm Skill Checks until the Gen was completed.
Here is a video:
Because initially, Pain Resonance would not let the Survivor leave the Gen when it activates, which killed the Combo with Dead Mans Switch. But since this was even worse, they added it back again, which made DMS/Pain Resonance a thing again.
So it is not like they really wanted to bring that stupid Combo back, they wanted to fix an even worse combo they created.
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The skillcheck is actually a really simply, ready-made limitation to DS that it actually does need: It sets a time limit for when the perk can be used. We don't want people using DS after the killer has spent 15 seconds wandering to the hook, they have to use it the moment they get picked up.
But yeah, overall, DS was the perfect anti-tunnel perk. It would waste the killer's time if they tried to tunnel, but if the survivor tried body-blocking with it, it would waste the survivors' time instead. It was honestly so well-designed that when it was theorised that BT was going to be baselined, I was advocating for DS to take that spot instead.
And lo and behold, we got BT instead and tunnelling is more effective than ever. With OTR trying to take the baton from DS, its crappy design immediately reared its ugly head on the PTB with the Endurance stacking issue. Then that got patched out and we're left with a perk that doesn't work against killers that tunnel hard enough due to innate BT, and it DOES work against killers that don't tunnel. It's the exact opposite of what you want out of a perk that fits this purpose. It's literally a worse deal for both sides of the fence.
What they should've done with the anti-tunnel changes instead:
- Current DS becomes baseline. That's the 3 second stun, disabled once the fifth generator is done so you can't get around the deactivation by 99ing the gates. It should also activate off both unhooks.
- BT baseline is removed.
- The perk DS now increases the stun duration back to 5 seconds (Or six, leave it neatly doubled) and then disables active killer powers for a duration to make it MORE effective against killers with impressive powersets, and LESS effective against weaker killers.
- OTR becomes an information denial perk, blocking aura reading, removing blood trails and scratch marks, and turning the survivor completely silent. This will make it risky for the killer to chase after them, as a skilled survivor might be able to give them the slip and waste their time more effectively than DS can. This makes OTR a competitor to DS, but rather than just being flat better, it increases the risk/reward factor.
This would be fairer to killers, as DS and OTR would not be able to be used against non-tunnellers, and fairer to survivors, because they're more effective against tunnelling.
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Ok so everyone starts running DS again and its even stronger now, and it totally will get used against killers who arent tunnelling because the weaker version that only worked once was constantly used against killers who werent trying to tunnel.
Your suggestion will lead to 2 things.
1. Extremely long queue times as killers who get hit with undeserved DS get sick of it and leave/play survivor.
2. A level of facecamping meta to secure kills that you cant begin to imagine.
DS is not the answer to tunnelling, especially with your suggestions, which are super unbalanced.
A much more fair and balanced way to try and reduce tunnelling is to simply add more defensiveness to the basekit borrowed time.
First off double the haste to 20% that gives you 0.2 m/s faster than a 4.6 killer that can be used to loop/get away.
Second for those 10 seconds, block aura reading of unhooked survivor, no blood or scratch marks, quick and quiet with no cooldown, 100% reduction in pain sounds and breathing. This litany of defensive boosts eliminates all but visual tracking of the unhooked survivors giving tons of options for breaking line of sight and losing the killer.
Third and finally the killer gains killer instinct on the unhooking survivor and have all but the unhooked survivors aura shown for 5 seconds, incentivizing the unhooker and any other survivor as a target especially with the difficulty of tracking the unhooked survivor.
As for buffing DS as an option I would be completely fine with applying the entire second portion of my Borrowed time buff for 5 seconds to give it more defensive utility without making it prone to abuse.
Post edited by kingcarl2012 on1 -
No, OTR is just fine. For more unpleasant Tunneling and Camping are, the game is balanced around it, if you remove this ability for killer the game just doesn't work, unless you want to see just S tiers every single game.
Dude, how many second chances do survivors need?
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10s stun LMAOOOOOOO. So much fun. Thank you for the good laugh.
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I mean, dont tunnel at 5 Gens. Easily avoidable. And you cannot really tell me that you have to tunnel at 5 Gens.
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None of those perks are necessary to do well as survivor. If the 2nd chances feel insufficient, it's likely due to personal mistakes.
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Still wondering why every suggestion to fix second chance perks trends straight to 'for an entire minute after they get off the hook, even a still-injured survivor has de facto three health states'. Like, yes, they might not be doing anything for this minute. That's true. But if they can buy time for the less-protected survivor to get away and then the other three survivors have a minute of safety? Well, that's way more effective.
The usage of anti-tunnel effects to distract and protect others rather than avoid tunnelling always exacerbates it. Because when you lose more time trying to not trigger them and go for someone else, that just engrains the mindset of 'take them and get it over with'.
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Mine only affects the immediacy of the current basekit BT
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to be fair, I said perks.
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Against some teams, you do.
Those are FEW and far between.
That being said, I don't like your idea as it gives me shades of Eruption. I don't like the idea of not being able to do anything for 10 seconds. Maybe make it so that the Killer can't attack for a certain amount of time after a short stun? Maybe also give the Survivor a small Haste boost for the duration of the stun.
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Ok so everyone starts running DS again and its even stronger now, and it totally will get used against killers who arent tunnelling because the weaker version that only worked once was constantly used against killers who werent trying to tunnel.
Survivors can't use it against any killer.
Survivors can't use it at all. Survivors can't force the activation condition. Killers have to work to make this perk trigger. Pay attention to the status indicators and you know who was pulled off the hook last. All you have to do is not pick them up, and the perk does nothing.
I have been hit by DS -once-, and it's not for lack of trying on the survivors' part. But after that first time, I remembered the perk's existence, and whenever I encounter the survivor that was unhooked last, I try to go for a different target. If they try to obstruct me, I make them take a nap.
To say that DS has counterplay is an understatement. In its current state, the killer has to either try really hard to make it pop, or fall for obvious bait. Either way, the killer is at fault and deserves a stun.
A level of facecamping meta to secure kills that you cant begin to imagine.
Considering my proposal is more or less a revert to what we had before 6.1, I can absolutely imagine. And it isn't particularly worse than what we have right now.
Besides, killers will threaten to facecamp over literally any change they don't like. It's kind of their beatstick to try and force the devs into doing what they want. I've grown kind of numb to the trantrum.
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a return to everybody and their grandma running DS/Unbreakable/Dead Hard+1 because DS is buffed to be even more effective than before and the response is therefore 'slug' wouldn't be great, I don't think.
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Would it make much of a difference?
Tunnelling and camping are baseline problems with the game. If they keep insisting on using perks to patch those holes, those perks will continue to be mandatory picks.
The only thing that changed is the colour of the jacket everyone's forced to wear.
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I find it funny that you have no comment on the actual anti tunnelling effects that I mention adding to basekit BT, but okay lets focus on your points of contention.
1. Survivors cant use it against any killers.
While you are partially correct because it cant come into play if you slug the person, and maybe the issues dont apply to you who is a perfect killer and has only been hit by DS once.
Many of us however are not perfect and there are many circumstances where DS can be used offensively against us.
Sometimes it can be difficult to tell survivors apart especially as there is no restriction on matching survivors and cosmetics.
Using their invincibility to bodyblock/flashlight save and interfere with hooking someone else, as soon as that happens DS should be disabled but isn't.
Fake working on a gen with another survivor, I dont have an issue with this one its a good play but it'll come up in the next point.
2. Considering my proposal is more or less a revert to what we had before 6.1.
This is false your suggestion is to not only revert it but double its effectiveness. Pre 6.1 you could at least get hit with an undeserved DS and you could at least eat the DS and then not have to worry about it, which was the only thing that made it remotely bearable.
DS as it stands now is fine in terms of its stun. There are things you could add to it to boost its defensibility like I suggested but your suggestion makes it completely unbalanced and overpowered.
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Many of us however are not perfect and there are many circumstances where DS can be used offensively against us.
But... That's basically still a failure on your part, not the perk being overpowered. It's not hard to avoid getting hit with DS, at all. I'm not a 'perfect killer', not by a VERY long shot. I just don't tunnel, and I am wary of DS whenever the person that throws themselves in front of me is someone that recently got unhooked.
Sometimes it can be difficult to tell survivors apart especially as there is no restriction on matching survivors and cosmetics.
You have a status tracker. You know exactly who was on the hook and who went down, because this information is fed to you, live. Even with four identical Claudettes, you can tell them apart, because their order in the status tracker is fixed. If Claudette 2 came off the hook, and you hit a Claudette, and you see Claudette 2's status change, you know it's the same Claudette.
This is false your suggestion is to not only revert it but double its effectiveness. Pre 6.1 you could at least get hit with an undeserved DS and you could at least eat the DS and then not have to worry about it, which was the only thing that made it remotely bearable.
Well, if the 'once per unhook' is that much of a problem, we can leave it out, but really, be honest: If you fall for that trick, from the same survivor, twice in one trial? You aren't winning that match or any other, anyway.
your suggestion makes it completely unbalanced and overpowered.
It really doesn't. The problem you're foreseeing is a non-issue with DS. It's an issue with OTR though.
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Revert Enduring or Deathslinger and sure, DS can activate twice per trial or have that 5 second minimum stun.
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Why can't we just leave 3 second stun but have a Blurry effect for additional 3 seconds? Kind of like Clowns effect when he hits survivors with his booze? That would make the killer still be able to move but give survivors more of a distance to escape. Or make it so that they can't see scratch marks or hear sounds for an additional 3 seconds. Because lets be real here. A 3 second stun is pretty much nothing for Solo Q's. Killer's get back in chase immediately and then down the survivor.
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After reading your comment, I hope you have the dignity to never use the 25s stun-like-so-much-fun-for-your-opponent perk ... a.k.a. Eruption
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OTR is fine and balanced, it was fine as an anti tunnel perk before basekit BT and still fine as it is now, because it protects the unhooked survivor by preventing them from getting downed, instead of punishing the killer for doing their job.
You are partially right about the status tracker, however lets use your example of identical claudettes. I injure claudette before the unhook and try to hit her again after the unhook and the person off the hook tanks the hit at this point I cant use the status tracker to tell them apart, and i lose track of which one is which.
If by luck I chase the right one i get a down and a hook, if i go for the wrong one I get the down and my options are limited, I can slug which with no info to go off of doesnt do alot for me, especially if they have unbreakable which is often paired with DS, so the only real option is to eat the ds and re get the down and hook. So even though I didnt intend to tunnel I still got punished.
This is the fundamental issue with DS, and why it isnt an anti tunnel perk, it does nothing to actually stop tunnelling it is purely a punishment.
I'm all for making tunnelling more difficult, my approach offers making the act of getting the down more difficult and ensures the killer will know they are tunnelling and get punished for the intent not the action itself.
The DS approach applies the punishment with no regard to intent, which is fine to choose the perk on an individual level, but for that to apply as a blanket all the time would be super frustrating, especially when your being punished and are actively trying not to tunnel. If your gonna get punished either way why bother trying not to tunnel, there is no incentive not to.
Imagine if you accidentally bump into someone and they were allowed to punch you in the face, eventually you would get tired of getting punched in the face for something you didnt mean to do and your gonna try and do damage on those accidental bumps since yor gonna get punched in the face either way.
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I am a survivor main. I stopped playing killer since last balance patch.
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Disable if healed. Tada.
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I dont think you understand how that works
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Or just stop healing at the hook. I feel like that's how most tunneling occurs.
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Maybe in some cases but I have previously made a thread asking why some team mates absolutely insist on being healed under the hook, despite it clearly being a bad idea such as with Artist etc. Though the majority of tunnelling I see is the killer hard proxies and then directly goes after the person who gets unhooked no matter if the unhooker takes a hit so they could also be a viable target
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You know, it would not be a necessary evil if there were not the lowest common denominator in the form of players who will intentionally tunnel someone out at 5 gens...
I am increasingly seeing a killer tactic of chasing the first survivor they find until they get a down, which they will do even if it takes a stupid amount of time... then they just hard camp that survivor and wait for the unhook so they can hard tunnel them off the hook even if they could easily get a hook trade.
This most definitely should be punished hard
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chasing the first survivor until they get a down is, to be fair, also what happens when people start panicking. If a chase takes too long, by the time you've realised that (and especially if you've got a hit, which could still mean two more swings with excellent DH timing and looping to pallets) gens could be about to go or already going. Is breaking off the chase at that point a good idea? Well, if this is indicative, no, any other chase would take longer! Got to stick with it.
I don't tunnel off hook intentionally (I'm not going to waste time and the chance if I can't see a clue where the rescuer went though and the unhookee zooms into my vision though), but I can see how easily you slip into the first part of that.
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Sure, that could be the case in some instances but also part or getting good with killer is learning when to drop chase too. Plus I see the same people in game who every time I go against them they do exactly the same thing; chase, hook, camp, tunnel off hook... repeat.
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I think what would be better is DS giving a speed boost after stunning the killer. That way you can actually make an escape and the killer isn't stuck in place forever. Right now it's useless because you don't make distance and the old one felt really bad to play against.
Once the fear of DS is back tunneling will stop again. That was the only thing keeping killers from doing it before.
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There's probably a lot of overlap and blurry cases--the people who go into a game with an attitude of "I have a planned strategy to tunnel out this one person" and consciously execute it is probably way lower than the number who are on a spectrum that covers everything from 'this went badly and I can bring it back by focusing one person down' to 'panic and try to secure one kill'.
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I was thinking even a haste effect yeah and perhaps hide scratchmarks, blood and pain noises for 5 seconds
Oh and I totally agree, there is very obviously no fear of tunnelling as killers can almost guarantee nobody is running DS as the perk is absolute trash. I know BHVR wanted to shake up the meta but previous DH (last version) was there for a good reason.
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Fair enough, I am just not a big fan of Resilience personally, I just don't feel I get enough value from it
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Let's lay out the situation here:
Two survivors are perfectly coordinating so that both are in the same chase. This is inherently a waste of time for survivors. One of the two must have been unhooked in the last 60 seconds and has not done anything to progress the game. Both carry the same cosmetic loadout and they find some way to trade off where you lose track of which is which. You slug the one with DS, but they use Unbreakable to get up again.
That's two perks, very stringent coordination, and a TON of time wasted for the survivors.
Let's compare this to what is currently possible if we compare apples to apples and give any random survivor OTR and DS. Because now the person with OTR can just aggressively dive in front of you and when you smack them out of the way, you're left with two options: Either you change target to them, or you keep on the original target.
If you keep on the original target, the bodyblocker just has to mend for a bit and they're free to do whatever they want. They don't need any assistance from another survivor and are back on a gen with you having wasted a good bit of extra time.
If you switch targets, you can down them, pick them up, and then get hit with DS so you waste even more time.
So OTR, which already has a track record of being used offensively, is fine, but DS, which cannot be used offensively if the killer doesn't pick the target up because then the time cost ends up on the survivors' side, is a problem. You have to pull out a miracle scenario to make the perk actually function against someone who isn't tunnelling, but OTR, where every jack, joe and jill can just throw themselves at a killer, no consequence, is 'fine'.
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But in the situation where the unhook happens right in front of me and the person off hook tanks a hit with BT unless they have time to mend which I am not going to give them if they are the survivor I end up chasing then the only way OTR even comes into play is if they use DS to reset their mend which with the current ds isnt often an issue because most people dont run it.
Your example is inherently flawed in the sense that once again you arent taking into account that not everyone has perfect tracking, if after the hit all I can see are scratch marks going in 2 different directions and dont know which is which I have a 50% chance of chasing the right one.
If i end up chasing the unhooker the person who tanked the hit will have to mend losing several seconds of potential progress and I dont actually lose anything because I am pressuring the other survivor towards getting a down, so in that situation I am actually gaining however many seconds of slowdown from the mend timer
If i end up chasing the bodyblocker, and get that down and then get hit with DS, I get punished and lose time, but i have no choice but to follow through because I have already commited time into that down and since I dont know where anyone is I have no real option but to continue on that person and because now I'm pissed off, because I really wasnt trying to tunnel, but got punished for it anyways, I am going to camp/tunnel that person to death.
Compare that to my suggestion where after the unhook even if they tank the hit they can essentially dissappear and the unhooker is highlighted, so the killer is more likely to go for the unhooker unless they make the conscious decision to tunnel which is still going to be alot harder with all the defensive effects they have, I mean Im sure you can do it if you want with your perfect tracking ability and game sense but for an average killer its gonna be pretty difficult.
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