Solo Survivors Getting Status Icons (At Last): But...
On one hand, I'm glad it's finally happening.
On the other hand, I'm not convinced it'll really do much.
It's not going to give people the ability or willingness to coordinate.
It's not going to stop that Nancy from suiciding on her first hook, or that Dwight from going AFK in a locker.
It's not going to stop that Meg from running Wesker right to the gen you're doing.
At best, it'll help make Kindred a bit less mandatory.
I've gone back and forth on this one, but I'd really like to see (in addition):
- The ability to see other survivors' perks in the lobby, so you don't end up with 3 Kindreds and 4 COHs. Yes, it might make some people lobby dodge the second they see a No Mither, but so be it.
- Something done to prevent the endless quitters that are probably the #1 reason why solo players lose games.
- Tweak survivor grades a bit, to move points a bit away from the current 'escape or you don't pip' frustration.
Comments
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There's a lot of stuff that it's not going to fix...
But it's a step in the right direction as long as you get four quasi-competent survivors (which granted, that can be a tall order but still...baby steps!)
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I mean we really just need bots to replace DCer's and that's probably all that can be done for soloQ as a whole besides the new info symbols. The rest of the problems is user error, you can't fix stupid and honestly if soloQ is strong enough for bad players to win that's probably too strong.
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This, right here, would be one of the most positive changes that DbD has ever or will ever see.
The problem is that man, it would be tricky to execute, as other games that have tried this realized.
You can't make the bots too good, otherwise a player DCing will actually make teams stronger at times. A bot capable of giving a 4000 hour killer a decent run is going to be hilarious against a 50 hour killer and could well hard-carry teams.
On the other hand, a weak bot might be worse than missing a player - STBFL stacks, Surge, Devour, PWYF, bodyblocking people in chase...yeah.
Still though, man it would be great.
What I'd probably like to see in conjunction is a simple change to the way DC penalties work. Rather than just going to get a drink, to make it decay, you'd need to play out a certain number of matches without DCing.
This is how most other games handle quitters.
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of course, a weak bot still contributing to Killer perks would also seem like a good thing other than tactical DCs denying the usage of perks entirely. Especially the hook-count based perks.
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At the very least, it will let me know what my teammates are doing so I can make the decision on whether or not I need to go for the rescue. It would also let me see how much people are working on gens and if they hardly are, I'll not hit skill checks when I get hooked.
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Yeah, I don't disagree.
This is one cause for concern - it actively contributing to more quitting.
The mildest of mild buffs.
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Man would it be nice if players could see you have Deliverance.
And making a bot replace the DC'd player and removing hook suicides entirely would go a long way.
I don't really care what they do with slippery meat and the luck stuff after that, but John Bozo not having a quick and easy way to punch his ticket after going down for a bad play would be a good start.
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Mm. Kobes and hook grabs are two of those 'why on earth are these still in the game?' things.
Kobes almost always just give people an 'I quit but I don't feel like DCing' button, and when they do work can be obnoxious for the killer.
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As they say you can lead a horse to water....
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Pretty much.
If you want out of the game ASAP, you eat that DC penalty and you like it.
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If that's the only change that's happening it's not enough and isn't going to change the solo q experience enough to be worth playing.
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The problem is - aside from my often made suggestion to let folks be able to see perks in lobby (which itself will also cause some issues), what can change solo queue without:
- Balancing SWF and solo differently? The devs have conclusively said they will never consider this.
- Buffing SWF?
The only thing I can think of, as suggested by someone earlier, is removing kobes completely.
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Sure but also repeated Dc's or suicides should result in week long suspensions leading up to a perma ban. This game is way too lenient in that regard. And yet people defend it so readily.
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I don't see a problem with that. Excessive disconnects should lead to actual bans regardless of the cause (rage quitting, shoddy internet.) However there is a reason why this game has such a problem with DC's and the devs really need to figure out how to make this game fun and rewarding for all their players.
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While action icons are a step in the right direction and I know I'll be glad to have a bit more info knowing what my team is up to, I agree that it still won't help solo queue much depending on the types of players you get. I can't see solo queue players playing all that differently from how they're used to, especially if they're scared/selfish/etc.
I'd really like to see all those other ideas implemented though, especially the last two, which I think go hand in hand. But since I feel preventing quitters from giving up is a more difficult thing to do, I'm hoping they'll tweak grades or remove negative pips so that it's at least not as punishing for us when our team massively decides to screw us over. Also, I think DBD mobile has the option to see teammate perks before a trial, so it really should be about time the main game gets the same treatment!
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I'm not expecting it to change much overall, never did, but it'll make my solo gameplay experience a lot more fun and engaging. The choices I make will be alot more informed now. Solo queue success will still come down to the actions of the team as a whole, which won't change (it'll still be bad lol)
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To be honest solo will always be ######### but I think the best solution is a decent chat wheel. "In Chase," "Going For Save," etc. Also give players a reason to play out matches. I know the old ranking system wasn't perfect but it promoted actually playing the game. You can lose and still have a "good" match and rank up and be matched with other people your rank. I know rank doesn't = skill but with how loose the match making is now and how it backfills with completely random skill levels what does it matter.
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Eh...ranks are another bag of kittens entirely.
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As with every survivor buff, SWF will get free information that they will actually use and the game will get easier for them.
The vast majority of your solo queue teammates will ignore the free information and will continue to get slaughtered.
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You can twist and turn it how you want, solos will never be able to get the same informations as comms. Or in other words good SWFs (even without comms as they know eachothers playstyles, skilllevel and builds) will always do better than a good solo team. And still they're trying to buff solos, ignoring the fact that the system can't even tell who's playing with friends, esp. since they added crossplay. So all survs are getting the buffs anyway. Just nerfing SWFs with an action debuff would be so much quicker and easier, but no... BHVR is just too scared to do that. Or they don't know how, as i said, the system can't even tell 100% who's playing with friends.
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Jokes on you I'm running slippery meat.
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Eh...this info is still that any halfway competent SWF will have anyway. If need be, they can slightly buff killers again if kill rates fall.
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People really underestimating how powerful these icons are. If you have any game sense it replaces kindred Bond and most other aura reading perks. Knowing what everyone else is doing at all time, for free, across the map informs all of your decision making. You can infer what they're doing even if you can't see them.
And the tired solo queue complaints. So sick of it. They're nothing but the same complaints that any team-based online game gets. People do not do the stuff you want them to do. They never will. It's frustrating but it's endemic to the whole experience and if they did exactly what you wanted they would just be bots and the game wouldn't have a lot of replayability.
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Eh...we'll see how it plays out in practice.
I run Empathy pretty much baseline, and probably will keep doing this - because often it's less important to know what people are doing compared to where they are doing it.
I partially agree regarding solo versus SWF, but in the same vein there are a few small things that BHVR could do to improve solo that wouldn't have a huge impact on SWF.
The big one though would be doing something about quitters, which ruin at least a quarter of the games I play.
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How does this buff (competent) SWF? This info is 100% superfluous to any SWF on comms, because people will tell you what they are doing, where they are doing it, how far along they are and provide the info when it matters instead of bloating your screen.
On the contrary this "buff" will only tell you what someone is doing. You will still have 0 idea if somebody is finishing 90% gen and then go for a rescue, because he's close, or he just started working on a gen that is on other side of map. Or it will not give you the info if somebody has nothing to do and is just cleansing dull totem, or somebody found devour hope that needs to be cleansed as #1 priority more then the gens other people are fixing.
If you spoke about op's adjustments - knowing perks is something SWF has, so no change for SWF. SWF tend to not quit on their teammates (they quit together if they ever do) and grades does not change anything gameplay wise.
So once again. How do icons buff SWF? I really want to know. Please answer on this one
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Oh, it's info comms already communicates. But that requires regular voice communications and play-by-play details. MANY people defending SWF use the excuse "oh well, we're just goofing around and aren't communicating all the details constantly. I SWEAR it's not that much of an unfair advantage, despite the fact that we win constantly!"
Now, SWF can see what their team mates are doing instantly, at all times. And then work off of that. "Hey Bob, I see you just finished your gen. Want to meet me by the shack to heal?" "Oh Dylan, you're being chased? Swing by mid and I'll bodyblock." "Hey, we're all on gens. Anybody got eyes on the killer?" and so forth.
Do icons give anything SWF don't technically already have? No. But it's instant, for everyone, for free. And SWF can then use that info to better coordinate, which makes the game even easier for them.
Solo CAN'T communicate any further. They won't know if the person going for the unhook is being stealthy to safely free the person, or just hook diving to farm their own teammates. They don't know if the person on totems is removing Devour Hope, setting up Circle of Healing, or just nuking a dull one. It's a bit more info, but it's going to end up being ignored by most solo teammates, who tend to be oblivious to anything other than what's immediately in front of themselves.
And THAT is why it's a SWF buff, not a solo one.
The real solo buff is changing how the game works on a fundamental level between SWF and Solo. And it's literally the only way that solo can ever get a buff that SWF won't benefit from far more. They're two very, VERY different games, and pretending that solo isn't Hard Mode and SWF isn't Easy Mode is being willfully obtuse.
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1, yes, swf get info they already had. So it's not a buff. If one completes a gen, everyone sees that - killer included. In current version of game. So there's no change there. Also I wonder which serious SWF did not already communicate they are in chase (+where they will go with killer). So it gives them no additional info. Now compare it to solo when 1 is on hook and 3 on gen? Now they know one needs to go. Huge buff for solo. 100% much more then redundant info swf already had in better/more advanced form.
2, I would argue that even SWF is hard. Maybe it's not harder then killer (I think it is, but sure I could be wrong), but saying that you win all the time is huge overstatement, or it means you are insanely good (same as e.g. supaAlf that is on 555+ winstreak on nurse, but there are many killer mains going for extended killer streaks on many (not all) different killers). The difference between swf and killer is quite small one way or another (from patch 6.1 - before this patch 4-man SWF 100% had advantage over killer).
3, sure they will not know how someone is going to unhook. But they will know someone is on a way. That means no more going to 2nd or death stage because "somebody else is surely on a way". This is HUGE for solo. Extra hook state. You can't compare this single thing to what swf got.
4, sure if someone is bad, he will stay bad. But that applies to swf too. You can't compare bad solo to good swf. Bad swf will not share information even if they could (effectively making them 4 solos that just chose their teammates). The difference is, that solo will now get the info and if they are good, they will act on it. No more multiple or 0 people going for save. Again. This alone is huge.
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wow. So giving SWF info they already have and will provide with priority when it matters (and they will still do that because icons can be overlooked) buffs mainly SWF, because solos didn't have that information, couldn't share it and them being able to get that information is less buff then the actual SWF maybe not needing (but in fact it's still needed to stress most important part) to share that information and being potentially able to share other less important information in the meantime so that's more of a buff.
I don't know what to tell you. That's next level mind gymanstics. My mind just exploded
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If you are talking about level where people don't know what to actually share, then ok. You are right. But I thought the game should not be balanced towards beginners.
Or do you mean to tell me someone with more then 10 hrs in a game would struggle to think about sharing info like "killer is on me", "who is going for that save?", "is anybody blessing that NOED/dhope/...."or any other basic kind of information?
We are talking about icons that provide you information about what is somebody doing. Not information where it's happening, what is your future plan (what will you be doing in a few seconds), where will you be doing that or any other information like that - which is already something decent SWF does (and I am talking about generic plans for the future - there's still pinpoint exact information godlike SWF can share with each other (that are the teams people here complain about) will provide you with actually precise estimates of when and where and how (if relevant) people will go down in the future - to actually ask for help from teammate to meet him in specific spot nobody is in right now, where that other teammate will take hit for chased person to actually prolong the chase for another half a minute or more).
Maybe you should watch at least one game from any comp team or any strong SWF team (like Hens's group) to see what kind of information they will (and which info they won't) share with each other and then compare it to this action icons and things it provides (touching this topic around the edge - even these insane guys that hold more then 200 games winsteak do loose against supaalf's nurse - out of 3 games that they showed, it was 1 win 1 loose 1 draw - meaning even this insane kind of information sharing will not make you invincible and the game will still be about your and killer's skill - but sure, taking strongest survivor stuff you would need to take strongest killer's stuff - in this case nurse, or blight or spirit and almost nothing else).
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It's honestly super refreshing to see someone's else who realizes this.
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Icons don't give you those abilities outright - they let you infer it. If you know what others are doing at all times, map wide, for free, it lets you know what you need to be doing. It's the tiniest bit of gamesense to elevate mediocre players into good ones and good ones into excellent ones. Macro play matters a great deal in this game.
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Shrug. If it throws kill rates off, then they'll tweak something - as BHVR were happy with post 6.1.0 kill rates.
Still, I don't think that it'll be at all a major buff. And getting solos and SWF closer together also makes the killer role a lot easier to buff.
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Let's be honest here - Dead by Daylight was never a horror game.
It's impossible for something to be scary when you can dress yourself up like The Electric Cowboy and teabag your way around the map. It's a vaguely horror themed APVP game. It's like calling Evolve a 'Sci-Fi' game.
Difficulty is a tricky thing. I'd say that this makes the game easier in the right way. Easier to pick up, and especially easier for new players without a stable group to play with. It's still an astonishingly complex game at the higher ends of play.
It reminds me of when Starcraft 2 did the automatic worker splitting thing in a patch, because it was a really fiddly bit of micro you had to do at the start of every game, and messing it up would set you pretty far behind someone who did it perfectly. People complained that it was 'dumbing down the game' but all it was doing is lowering the barrier for entry slightly.
I have...no problem with that. Again, if this does somehow amp up SWFs more, then we can tweak killers a bit to compensate.
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There are pros and cons to everything in the game
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We'll see.
The balance used to be Solo << Killer <<< SWF.
Then it became more like Solo <<< Killer << SWF.
If this makes it Solo << Killer << SWF, that's positive. If it's a small buff to SWFs, we can figure that out post hoc.
This, aside from letting folks see perks before the match, and maybe reducing quitting is also about the extent of what I can think of to help solos. Yes, I suppose you could do native voicechat, but that's a Pandora's Box I don't think BHVR want to open.
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Yup :|. I'd just turn it off. Every game with native VC has been either the aural equivalent of the inside of a door in a bathroom stall, or a moderation nightmare.
Just a spectacularly bad idea, with how unpleasant postgame chat can be already.
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I know it may sound crazy and i dont know if it has been suggested before, since i rarely visit this forum, let alone post ;
But what if in every match a map layout was included somewhere on the screen, exactly like the ones found in dbd wiki like the picture that i included below. No tiles no nothing.
It would show the location of each survivor only when they were performing the aforementioned actions (repairing a gen, cleansing a totem, opening chest). It would not show their locations if they are idle, on the run, if they are being chased by the killer, if they are hiding in a locker, or show their exact location in maps with 2 floors (e.g The Game).
I think that this would help soloq survivors the most, in conjunction with the new action icons. I dont expect this to help swf, since they can share their location relative to their teammates (if not their exact location), or other points of interest on top of other things. Any suggestions?
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