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Dead Hard still needs to go
There should never be a perk that punishes the Killer for hitting a Survivor in a normal chase. Endurance should only be granted under very specific conditions where the Killer can ignore it by switching targets, like Soul Guard, Borrowed Time, and Off the Record.
Comments
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They hated him because he told them the truth.
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I guess it wouldn’t be too difficult to go back to dead hard for distance and remove the iframes and Endurance.
Then see which version people like more.
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I'd love to try out a distance-only variant..I never cared about the distance. What I care about it swinging through invincible survivors and having to wait 5+s to see whether or not the survivor is going to hit E.
I understand the meme is that the distance was the best part of old dead hard but I have never felt that is the case. Making the killer hesitate and waste time or be forced into a lose-lose has always been the strongest part of it imo. That has not changed.
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If you still struggle with dead hard this much it's a skill issue.
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When I read all those "it's just mindless pressing E" and/or "it's pretty much a guaranteed free hit" I can't help but to wonder if these people feel the same about Huntress hitting hatchets, Slinger landing shots, Nemo's tentacle, Demo's/Wesker's M2 and all the other M2 attacks that start to land consistent hits once the player figured out how the power and timings work.
If survs run in a straight line and look behind them to judge when to use DH it's a mindgame. If they manage to consistently guess your hit timing correctly that's a you thing, not a them thing. If they can force a DH hit, e.g. by running into a window and you swing into DH instead of into them vaulting, that too is a mindgame. If you keep hitting DH it's also a you thing, not a them thing. It's kinda like respecting pallets vs swinging into pallets, just a little more unpredictable cause it can happen in places other than in pallets. Just because you sniff up a survs butt doesn't mean you are now entitled to get the hit.
Best counter to DH? - Patience.
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anyone who uses dead hard is the one who really has a skill issue not the killer.
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Dead Hard actually takes some skill to pull off now but sure keep coping.
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nope literally 0 skill, anyone who thinks this perk takes skill is the one who's really coping. if you're gonna use it in the open that's just like using old dh to ignore hits instead of making distance (doesn't work unless the killer is impatient).
however if you gonna use it when near a pallet (just like old dh) you're almost always gonna get value without the killer being able to do anything about it especially if it's a very easy to dodge power (wesker's/ pig's dash or chainsaw killers)
this perk requires as much skill as old dh (none)
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Hard agree. My main issue is that it can be used as many times as the survs like. I think granting it tokens based on protection hits would be the way to go. Make the survivors earn additional dead hards and gear it towards protecting others.
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One well timed DH can easily cost the killer the entire match, kinda ridiculous that a killer should lose just because a survivor pressed E once. If a survivor is running through a pallet, you basically have to swing or risk getting a pallet dropped on you. DH is not good for healthy gameplay in DBD.
Remove DH from the game or rework it to be something completely different.
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I think the new DH is much more fine now, instead of the BS "eyeframe/distance" attribute which made Dead Hard user miserable to punished. Before, a Survivor can easily abuse the perk to always make it to the window/pallet at any loop; without anyway for the killer to mindgame. What even made it worse then, was if you were playing agaisnt specifically power killer like trapper's traps, doctor's shock, Huntress Hachet, etc. Any Dead Hard survivors can avoid the hit and dodge right through the trapper's traps with ease.
Now, Dead Hard is no longer the only exhaustion Perk that can avoid Bear trap no more, and timing is key to maximize usefulness of this perk. In some loops, it can be quite difficult to deduced when a Survivor is attempted to dodge; but it not hard to wait a second or two; or fake a killer attack to bait out the Survivor's dead hard. It not hard to watch the survivors closely, and keep in eye on the Survivor's head model looking in your direction; that is usually a sign that they have a dead hard.
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It's a meta perk even in tournaments. And if tournament-level Killers are still getting Dead Harded, then I don't think it's a skill issue.
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Dead Hard often gives so much value that it can be game-changing when done right and it can be used multiple times a game.
I think it should have more conditions put on its usage. Something like they can't use Dead Hard until after they have been hooked at least once.
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By same reasoning we should delete spirit fury, enduring, hubris, crowd control, dissonance, claustrophobia, deadlock, .... Because survivors should not get punished by doing there objective/prolonging chases with killers. The idea is just wrong. Both sides have things that make their life easier. DH is survivor's version of strong prolong game. All the regression perks (especially CoB, OC and eruption) are the strong things that prolong killer's game. If DH should go, so should regression perks to balance it out.
Anyway if you can't play around 0.5s hit protection in this laggy environment, that is your skill issue. Also it's not that rare that I can hit survivor that DH's into pallet before he can drop it - by just slightly postponing my hit and not respecting pallet (sure the timing is not very forgiving - same as DH).
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Survivors can pre-drop pallets to avoid Spirit Fury, Enduring and Hubris. They can choose to repair one generator at a time to avoid Deadlock. They can choose not to stack on one generator to avoid Discordance. They can choose to leave a loop if they see the window get blocked by Crowd Control (Or to cleanse the totem).
But try playing Killer without hitting injured Survivors sometime. Because that's the only condition that needs to be fulfilled for DH to activate.
Oh, so the Oni who got Dead Harded twice in the November community cup finals was just a noob? Gimme a break.
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Embarrassingly false equivalence. You know better than this, you are simply being wilfully obtuse.
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I find it tiring that Dead Hard is used the exact same ways by literally every survivor. They DH in front of windows, they spin around a little bit and DH, they walk under a pallet and DH.
Like some suggested, they should just bring back old Dead Hard but distance only. If you want to have a perk that "dodges" an attack, then actually dodge the attack or go down. The distance or speed might need tweaked, but I think that's a reasonable change to add
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Dead Hard is no better or worse than Exposed. So as long a survivors can be downed in one hit fewer than usual, then a perk thats adds one potential hit is perfectly fine.
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You'll notice that Exposed, as a status effect, is conditional. Perks that apply it only activate under pretty specific conditions, can be permanently deactivated with relative ease, or both. Instadowns eat up a pretty huge portion of a Killer's power budget if their power has one.
But Dead Hard? It's almost unheard-of for you to NOT get an opportunity to use it; you're often able to do so multiple times in a single match, in fact. And all 4 survivors all using this perk in a match? The amount of time it can buy a team is astronomical.
Point me to the perk that applies Exposed multiple times in a single match, to a survivor of your choosing, with no conditions required, and we'll talk.
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Like i understand that getting hit by a DH is annoying, but its literally the only perk survivors have that can make plays, its exciting to pull of, requires skill, prediction, reading the killer. The perk is fine, it literally just requires patience and not to panic swing.
Its annoying that you see it so much, well bhvr shouldn't have designed only 1 perk for survivors who want to make plays. Besides i wouldn't be surprised if some of the people using DH wouldn't be better with SB, lithe or overcome and just use DH because its fun. Thats why i use it
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Slinger, legion, original pain pinhead, every instadown (finger clown, iri hatchet huntress, iri addon dredge, iri vial wesker, iri tag blight, billy, bubba, ghostface, ...), exhaust addons, fearmonger, blood pact, ... Or being in deep wound by killer hit during basekit BT, BT perk, OTR or styptic. The list is quite long for something that has 0 counterplay. This does not even consider waiting it out. Or deliberately not, but missing on purpose. Or getting survivor in the open where that 0,5s helps almost never. Or killer having bad ping and getting hit even at the end of DH animation.
Clearly the perk has 0 conditions ever. You just need to be blind to all of the "hundreds" of exceptions when it can't be used.
And my answer applies to this comment too.
It's not? Explain why you think so? Perk that punishes normal chase gameplay on one side and on the other side are same equivalency. Is it false because one punishes survivor for correct play and the other killer? I don't think so. If correct gameplay can be punished, it should stay like that for both sides. Like stuning the killer is correct gameplay so why should I try to predrop instead? What is so different here compared to DH requiring killer to not hit from the very edge of hitable distance?
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I don't really thing the way the perk work is the problem, but how Endurance works as it is to all effects a third health state with all that it entails, including an speed boost for survivor and slow down for the killer (meaning, longer chase time) with the only cost of not being able to stop running until you have 10 seconds to mend yourself. Combine this with another survivor body blocking and this can literally nullify all the time invested in a chase that the killer won at all effects.
So, I think the way to go is to rework Endurance, either by removing the speed boost to the survivor, make it to not slow down the killer, or deep wound having a fixed timer that runs out even when running. This would made DH and all other second chances perks what they should be, an aid to give survivors a little more time to escape (or get help to) from the killer, and not a literal third state that punish the killer by having to waste more time for being able to down survivors.
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Ah yes, remove the final perk in the game that keeps survivors alive and it really will be open season in the game. It's not even hard to go against DH, just WAIT when you get close. That's literally it.
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Even if 100% of killers managed to successfully bait and punish Dead Hard 100% of the time, so that no survivor had ever actually gotten any value out of Dead Hard, it would still be awful for the game's health simply because it takes a game that is all about distance, and the killer attempting to close the distance so they can strike, and turning it into a game of walking behind the survivor and waiting for them to press "e" before you are allowed to hit them, or hoping they press it late. You're now imagining a Halloween movie in which Myers has caught up to a victim but isn't attacking them for a few seconds, instead he's just following behind them at a brisk pace and not stabbing them for any particular reason.
I think if most new players were exposed to Dead Hard they'd just uninstall the game on the spot for ruining their killer fantasy. The playerbase only tolerates the perk because it was added a year into the game's life and has been part of the game for almost as long as it has been alive. This perk should never have seen the light of day.
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Yeah bro killers like to cry about every perk that grants a survivor and advantage over them when your literally mostly playing with solo players and these perks are healthy for chase and making the game fun for the other side it’s like eruption call of brine and that meta dead hard is a fine perk to be honest and if you have a problem with waiting it out that’s up to you if you look at the top tier killers they just walk behind them a few secs then book they dh and it’s a down certainly is a skill issue
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Im a killer, thats not true. It punishes the Killer for brainless hitting a suv. not generally.
You have to wait until he makes DH, or catch the right moment. It basicly just blocks your Lunge attack (because against lunge DH is very easy to use). The 0,5sec are realy hard to hit for the survivor. When the suv. catches my hit with dh, its 90% my foult for not beeing patient enoth
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Just add this:
"After using Deadhard, you are unable to drop a pallet for 2sec."
Then the Deadhard into pallet and then drop broken stuff would be go and it would work as intended. The "safe area" is gone. Use Deadhard, Killer hits it - congratulations, here is the reward. If not, you are hitted.
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As a killer Dead hard is easy to punish. Hit them as soon as they land form the hook. Now they can't get 3rd health state. Tunnel them out of the game until dead.
The reality is that there should be a base game "feature" where every time you mend from an endurance perk (not from Deathslinger or Legion or another killer power) it takes more time to mend the next time. Likewise every time you heal to full health it takes longer than the last time.
Since only dead heard works that way it nerfs DH and no other perk. Healing in general is way too fast compared to say the first two years of the game's life.
At a guess : every heal or mend heal should take 33% longer. So after 3 heals your healing time takes 199% longer.
To repeat the idea : this should be a base line aspect of the game.
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I've seen tournament-level Killers get Dead Harded multiple times by a single survivor using the perk. Are you going to call them "brainless"?
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So you want to tell me that you want to fix DH because the 0.01% of the top players have a problem with that skill? ;)
But you also see tournament killers who can deal with dh too. How i said it blocks long attacks pretty well but its very very hard for short ones.
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comp players play the best killers and the best killers (nurse/blight) are easy to DH. I'm pretty ok with survivors having a 3rd health state vs said killers tho lmao
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Oh, the match I was watching was with Oni. Community Cup rules force you to play Killers other than Nurse or Blight. He ate a Dead Hard with both his M2 and M1. Honestly, if the Survivors weren't forced to bring unique perks (Meaning, only one Dead Hard per team), the finals could have gone quite differently.
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Dead Hard is fine. It's no longer "press E to win", it's no longer uncounterable and can always be avoided, and it has far more counters on top of waiting it out.
At most, the pallet thing could be adjusted, but it's by no means a foregone conclusion that it needs to be. I think what these conversations always seem to forget is that successfully using Dead Hard is no longer an instant chase win for the survivor, it's a phyrric victory where they trade postponing the down for Deep Wound and Exhaustion. Obviously that still breaks in their favour, it's a survivor perk, but the killer gets something if they need to drop the chase- which, it should be noted, is an if, not a guarantee.
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For the hundredth time, if countering Dead Hard is so easy, how do tournament-level Killers still get hit by it regularly? I mean, if countering Dead Hard was just a skill issue, usage of Dead Hard would fall off at high MMR and in tournaments, but it doesn't.
Deep Wounds and Exhaustion are a fraction of what a third health state costs the Killer. Extending the chase by another 30+ seconds can be devastating to a Killer's momentum. That's 30 more seconds where the rest of the Survivors are free to do objectives instead of worrying about unhooks. 12 seconds of one survivor Mending is nothing compared to that. Even an injury requires two survivors to spend 16 seconds healing. To balance out the amount of time you buy for the rest of your team, Mending from Dead Hard would need to take 60 seconds minimum, and that's being generous.
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No idea. Maybe they decided that swinging into DH would save more time than waiting it out, or maybe they got flustered, or maybe the survivor using it had a really clutch timing. Skill goes into both sides of this, it's not that skilled killers will never swing into DH, it's that you can outplay it.
Sure, okay, if you think the chase would take another 30 seconds, drop it. Go chase someone else. The way that you would if a skilled looper got to a really good tile or used another Exhaustion perk to make a ton of distance on you. None of that is unique to Dead Hard, it's just how this game works.
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Nurse can be outplayed too, on paper. Does that make her balanced or good for the game?
You don't play Killer much, do you? Dropping the chase usually costs you even more time, both from chasing a Survivor that's healthy and most likely on fresh hook, and from the time you need to waste looking for someone else to chase. And heaven help you if the Survivors are on comms and call you out so they can start running early. If you never commit to a down, you are throwing.
And the sheer distance Dead Hard gives you is unparalleled among Exhaustion perks, as it not only gives you the free speed boost from being injured but forces the Killer into cooldown. Again, for the sheer amount of time it buys a Survivor, you'd need a LOT more mending time than it currently has.
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I play killer far more than survivor, I would advise not going down that route.
Moving on, let's first address Nurse. She can be outplayed too, on paper, but... can she? Because the parts of her that I see most people wanting nerfed are the parts of her that don't have counterplay, or where counterplay is unfeasibly difficult or up to RNG. Her use of Exposed perks, for instance, or the elements that make gauging exactly how to counter her mid-trial harder like the range and recharge addons. Compared to the wide breadth of things that counter Dead Hard, from adjusting how you play to specific killer powers to anti-Exhaustion perks to any other source of Deep Wound, it's not exactly a great example to draw.
As for the distance it gives being unparalleled, no, it isn't. I honestly don't even have that much to say to that, it's blatantly not true- Lithe, Balanced Landing, and Sprint Burst all give at minimum comparable distance and none of them impart Deep Wounds or guarantee that the survivor using it is at least injured, wherever they end up. Overcome gives more distance, though at least that survivor will be injured, I suppose.
Finally... I dunno man, finding survivors isn't that hard, especially if you bring some tracking tools. There are definitely times dropping chase is a bad idea even if it's forced, but those aren't every chase and they're never enough to literally lose you the game right there.
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That's what "On paper" means. In theory, Nurse can be countered, but in practice, not really. And that's Dead Hard in a nutshell, as well. In theory, there's lots of stuff you can do to counter it, but in practice, most of it is either too wasteful to be of much practical use, or can be rendered null by a good enough Survivor.
Do Lithe, Sprint Burst, and Balanced Landing reduce the Killer's movespeed to almost nothing for 2.7 seconds? Because Dead Hard does. Simple math, dude.
You talk like someone who barely plays Killer. I've seen many instances of Killer mains dropping a chase, hoping to catch another survivor, and it almost costing them the game or actually costing them the game because they couldn't find the gen the rest of the survivors were working on, or in the time it takes them to cross the map, too many gens pop. Or because there is no weak link on the team and every chase takes almost as long as the first.
It's relatively safe to drop a chase after getting an injury, sure. But after a Dead Hard? That survivor's going to spend 12 seconds Mending and then get right back on gens.
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I think you missed my point- the counters that Nurse has in theory do bear out in practice, except for specific elements of her kit that people want nerfed. It's not that her counterplay is only theoretical, it's that it's undercut by specific things- whereas your argument here is that Dead Hard in its entirety is overpowered and its counterplay is only theoretical, when it's not. Waiting it out works, baiting it works, inflicting Deep Wound yourself works, using Exposed works, inflicting Exhaustion works, and so on. None of them fail in practice.
No, but you don't need to be directly on top of the killer to use those other Exhaustion perks, so it's more distance in practice.
That sucks for those killers but you shouldn't jump to Dead Hard being the problem there. if nothing else, the thing that actually caused them to start losing there is that they dropped chase, and Dead Hard is not the only reason they'd have to do that. If the same scenario bears out when they drop chase for other reasons, doesn't that hint that something else might be wrong, either with the game itself or with their gameplay? And if it doesn't... why not? Why is breaking chase from DH different to breaking chase from a strong tile, or another Exhaustion perk?
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Evidently you haven't seen comp-level Nurses in action. When you take a hit is for the Nurse to decide, not you, regardless of addons or perks.
I've seen Killers with thousands of hours wait out Dead Hard for over a minute. Try to bait it multiple times in quick succession, to no avail. Or Survivors can always just use it at pallets or use it against one of any number of Killers with a power that inflicts damage at a predictable time to force lose-lose situations for the Killer. And if you use Exposed, then Survivors just stay injured and get a second health state anyway.
Then where are all the Lithes, Sprint Bursts, and Balanced Landings in high MMR and tournaments? What advantage does Dead Hard give, if not the distance you gain by getting a free injured speed boost AND forcing the Killer into cooldown?
Why is breaking chase with DH different to breaking chase from a strong tile, or another Exhaustion perk? Because with Dead Hard, you traded a health state for 12 seconds of one survivor Mending. Dropping a chase is relatively safe after putting a survivor in Injured, because they need to find someone else to heal them, and then both spend 16 seconds healing. But after a Dead Hard? 12 seconds of Mending is a pittance of what the Survivor costed you if they forced you to drop the chance.
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What other skill is needed to use dead hurd in a pallet? Killers have a 100% chance of hitting a survivor into a runner in a pallet. Tell me where is the skill needed to press E? Survivors press it even if the killer does not hit
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Yes, if you look at comp-level and tournaments, you will see a very different story. Also, won't those Nurses be using the things I talked about? The range/recharge addons, Exposed perks, and such? Because if so that doesn't disprove my point even slightly, if anything it bolsters my argument.
You also do see those other perks in tournaments, don't you? I admit to not really caring about the tournament scene, but I'm given to understand most of them have perk restrictions that ensure not every survivor can bring Dead Hard, and most of them are still going to want one of the other (still very strong) Exhaustion perks. Either way, tournaments are largely irrelevant when talking about general balance, and I think you're trying to respond to an argument I'm not making with that part about what value DH brings. Of course it brings that value, it's a strong perk- it's just not OP anymore.
I admit to not understanding your last paragraph there. In both scenarios, you're breaking chase after chasing an injured person for a while, so there's not much difference. And you're trading the health state for 12 seconds of Mending and however long it takes them to heal, if they want to be healthy again. If they don't, they only have two health states and it's basically normal.
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No, they won't. Such things, the range addons especially, are often banned in tournaments. It's common for Nurse herself to be banned in tournaments now, in fact. Nurse was banned from every round except the Quarter-Finals in the DBD community cup. And Nurse was in the game long before Starstruck and was still the undisputed best Killer in the game, still had the exact same gameplay and with the same problems, so your point on Exposed is pretty moot.
"This perk is so powerful that tournament rules ban Survivors from using more than one of it at a time, therefore it's not OP." Brilliant logic.
The difference is the number of hits the Killer has gotten. Good survivors will make you fight hard for every single one, so having to abandon the chase after scoring not one, but TWO hits is devastating to your momentum.
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Regardless, this conversation is not about Nurse or about tournaments, it's about the balance of Dead Hard in regular matches. Though, brief aside, your attempt at scathing sarcasm is cute, but my point was about tournaments banning duplicates of the same perk in general and not them banning Dead Hard specifically.
Moving on, right, I do see the distinction you're trying to draw there. Still, that's only if you do have to abandon chase, and there's absolutely nothing preventing survivors from using other Exhaustion perks or just busted setups in general to make you abandon the chase after chasing an injured survivor for a while. If you get right up on someone you've already chased to injured and swing into Dead Hard, that's meaningfully the same as if that person used Lithe to rocket off to the other side of the map after you've chased them long enough to almost catch up. The time investment and harm to your momentum is the same... except for that in the first example, you at least get Deep Wounds. In the second, you get nothing.
Not to mention the numerous times you might swing at a Dead Hard - even if you swing into it - and the survivor gets caught on a wall or doesn't have anywhere to go because they're in a deadzone. You don't always have to drop chase, it's just that when you do, it's not unique to DH.
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Imagine if killers had a perk that could instadown survivors they hit with lunge attacks every 40s
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I'd accept distance only dh on the condition that it has a feature with trapper traps where they immediately get sent to the dying state
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Tournaments ban duplicates because of perks like Dead Hard, and you know it.
See, the difference is that you can't really control when Sprint Burst, Lithe, or Balanced Landing activate. Starting to sprint, taking a window vault, or dropping down usually isn't optional when the opportunity presents itself. And thus, activating it at the most opportune moment, when the Killer's already invested a huge amount of time in the chase, you're injured and the Killer is closing in for the second hit, is almost impossible. And even then, because they don't buy you as much distance as Dead Hard, you're much less likely to actually get enough distance to lose the Killer.
Having to drop the chase is not unique to Dead Hard, but Dead Hard forces you to drop the chase far more consistently than any other perk. Getting caught on a wall or in a deadzone is not unique to Dead Hard, either, but with just how much distance it buys you by effectively stunning the Killer, you have a much better chance of getting out of a deadzone, making it to a strong loop.
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...I don't know that at all. I'm pretty sure it's to reign in all the strong perks and to prevent stacking healing + gen speed increases, personally, that'd be my assumption. It is hardly just for Dead Hard.
And sure, but you can't control when the most opportune moment for Dead Hard is either. You can't use DH to teleport to a pallet to start doing that little mindgame, so sometimes you're forced to use it in the open or in a deadzone, where the speed boost barely takes you anywhere. Is that more distance than you'd get without Dead Hard? Obviously. Is it more distance than you'd get from the average use of Lithe, Sprint Burst, or Balanced Landing? No.
The bottom line is, the average use of Dead Hard outside of using it at a pallet is not OP. It's something that killer players can adapt to after they see it and that they can outright counter before the match even starts with their perk or killer selection, if they choose to.
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No, the meta at the highest skill level is Off the Record, Decisive Strike, Adrenaline and Dead Hard, with a Deliverance and 1-2 Unbreakables thrown in for good measure. Which incidentally, is almost identical to the pre-6.1.0 meta. Really feeling that rework.
The Killer's movespeed is reduced to a crawl if they hit you in Dead Hard, it literally DOES give you more distance than any other Exhaustion perk. Find a friend, go test it yourself. Compare how long it takes to close the distance to a Survivor who took a hit with a Survivor who used Sprint Burst. The former wins out every time.
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Decisive? Really? I don't know how you're ascertaining this info but if that's accurate that's extremely surprising, Decisive lowkey sucks now. I actually went against two people who tried using DS aggressively against me as Clown and they got absolutely zero value or distance, that's shocking if it's apparently the meta pick at highest skill level. I'd love to know where you're getting that info from to check if it's true.
Anyway, we went over that. The person using Lithe or Balanced doesn't need to be directly next to the killer, which gives them noticeably more distance than a random in-the-open Dead Hard.
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