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And this is why slowdown feels obligatory...
So, here I am, with BBQ/Lethal Pursuer/Shadowborn/Nowhere to Hide, and I spawn into Lery's. The game actually goes pretty well--get two Survivors out, two gens still to go. Possibly too well, as most of the map's pallets are still around.
Commence holding W from pallet to pallet after one of the survivors for long enough that the other one completes the two gens. He couldn't make it to the exit gate in time, even with DH as health state #3, but just think about that
In a game that went well with no slowdown, mindlessly running from pallet to pallet still bought a guy somewhere around 2-3 minutes, if not a bit longer with hook times. If it went any worse, running aura reading for fun wouldn't work (and that was hardly fun, either, just 'follow the blood').
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there is not a single point in DbD's history where killers thought they didn't need slowdown
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Whether that tells you more about the Killers or the map design is up for debate
But the amount of slowdown people want to bring does seem to have kept creeping gradually upwards.
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thats because they kept getting more options
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if more slowdown is always the optimum choice no matter how much slowdown has been added, that also says a lot.
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When was that?
Killer has never been stronger currently. Perhaps the difference here is rank based matchmaking vs skill based matchmaking?
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The game just isn't fun. BHVR pigeon holes everyone into meta or meme builds. You either run sweaty or lose, both sides. Killer DC's, Survivor DC's. "Shake up the meta" never works because it just creates another "season" of complaints from both sides.
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What you told me is that you don't need slowdown at all for that match.
The only reason the gens got done by somebody mindlessly dropping pallets is cause you mindlessly kept going after them.
Having some kind of slowdown does feel needed vs equall survivors but your example really isn't good
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I didn't need it for that match, true (but also, there wasn't much else to do at that point; I have two survivors, and a power that doesn't lend itself to shortcutting Lery's; what else am I gonna do but eat pallets? I could maybe have mindgamed some but that might take longer if I misplay).
But that wasn't what I was really getting at. It was just that in a situation where I couldn't definitely cut down on the chase time (and I did when I actually had space to bound), there was several minutes of chase time added with both of us just going from pallet to pallet.
So why does slowdown always seem necessary? Because the way maps are designed is bloody awful; info perks can obviously do a little bit, but chase perks are nearly garbage outside of specialised situations. Enduring would've actually been great there, but imagine I'd brought Bamboozle or Play With Your Food. And when you can have minutes of time on the map when there aren't good deadzones or misplays, of course at least one slowdown perk feels obligatory.
(also, I would like a game where I don't have slowdown but I also can't spend two minutes holding W between pallets, tbh; that's just tedium)
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So you are saying a 3K is a loss on your part? This is half the problem. Killers think the only way to “win” is a 4K.
Sounds like you had a good game that was going well, got lots of hooks and some good chases. That’s a win in my book.
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No, I'm saying a 2K followed by 2-3 minutes of just holding W through pallets exemplifies how much (Survivor) slowdown is built into a map and why slowdown is always the #1 perk category for Killers.
That this was a good game on my end is exactly why I had the time to spend doing this.
Also, I wanted fun games, which was why I dropped all slowdown. Lo and behold, I wound up in a game where the most memorable part is where there was no mindgame and minimal power usage. Great incentive. <_>
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Alright then, let me rephrase that. The moment they started getting more options for gen regression, the less chase and healing perks were needed. Oh and btw, I do know my chapter releases
2016 we got Thana and Ruin but they were very different compared to what they are today, especially Ruin. Dying Light was also a popular pick thanks to mori's being able to be used without even hooking anyone, and only later did they add the requirement of at least 1 hook. How ever it also slowed down healing, and because there werent many perks to stack as gen regression, killers opted to slowdown healing and faster chases. (Mangled add ons, machine gun build)
2017 brought Overcharge as the only slowdown, at this point in time how ever Ruin and Thana still reigned supreme as well as Mangled add ons. Since the options to slowdown gens were virtually non existent, killers still opted to slowdown healing. The amount of pallets on every map started to get recognized by Survivors as they started to learn how to loop better, making perks like Brutal Strength and Enduring a bit more valuable. Enduring was usually the go to how ever, since it delt with Decisive Strike
2018 brought one of the strongest perks for its time, PGTW. Ruin and Pop were seen in the majority of matches, as well as the newly reworked Tinkerer which helped identify which gen to kick. Sloppy Butcher was also buffed to apply Mangled. Discordance came out late 2018 as well, and was also a pretty popular pick. Id like to add that this was a point in time where DC penalties werent a thing. It wasnt uncommon to see a killer DC very early into the match just because their Ruin got cleansed.
2019 roles around and we get yet another strong perk for gens, Corrupt Intervention. Meta started to shift more towards more gen slowdown and less for chases and healing, thanks to the earlier nerfs to pallets, loops, and healing in mid 2018 and didn't feel as necessary. Surge was added and saw some use as well, but people still opted for Ruin/Corrupt/PGTW and another perk of their choice, usually BBQ.
2020 hits and we get reworked Ruin, as well as buffed Tinkerer. Corrupt/Tinkerer/Ruin and a perk of the users choice, usually Pop to have a backup if their Ruin got cleansed too early. Pop got replaced with Undying when The Blight came out, and that solidified Ruin's spot in the meta. Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer/Corrupt
2021 hits and the meta didnt really change all that much. Undying got nerfed but it still make Ruin last for a bit longer so it still had value to most. Deadlock came out, as well as Pain Res but it didnt see much use until later on
2022 comes around and buffs Dead Man's Switch. Since people liked bluetooth gen regression at the time, DMS/Pain Res/Deadlock/Corrupt were go tos. This doesnt mean Ruin/Undying was bad, its just this new combo was simply better since Survivors couldnt take it away from you. Pop also saw some use, especially when Call of Brine came out, but again people liked bluetooth gen regression more, so DMS/Pain Res/Deadlock/Corrupt it was
Later on in the year, we get patch 6.1.0 which I think we all know what it brought, the gen kick meta. It nerfed the hell out of both popular combos for bluetooth regression, being DMS/Pain Res and Ruin/Undying. It also massively buffed Eruption and Overcharge. I dont think I need to state the obvious, were currently in this meta and we all know it.
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So... you chased someone long enough for the other guy to finish 2 gens? Why didn't you just leave the guy?? What even is this thread???
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I even have to run PainRes/DMS on Nurse because depending on map I literally cannot kill fast enough to keep up with the gens popping. Even when I am literally on a survivor at all times. There is no way in hell you could do it with a D Tier killer.
The combination of match making and map design is making this virtually unplayable. I'm at a point where I have to start sweating with a nurse to get a 2k while on the other hand I get Free-To-Play-Weekend Andies who can't even look back while running when I play Killers that I play rarely.
We're nowhere near a decent solution for Matchmaking and to me personally, BHVR doesn't look and sound like they know how to handle this situation. Therefore I wouldn't count on any of this getting better at all in the next 2 years. IMO BHVR opened a can of worms.
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Because at that point it didn't matter if I left the guy??? Maybe the other player would have been worse at the hold W game, but the actual match wasn't why I made the thread.
The "wow, that's a lot of time you can buy with unavoidable pallet drops and running around circular obstacles, exemplified by a barely-used map" part was.
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I can tell you haven't played in higher mmr ranks. That's your post, as for the thread, it's about why gen slowdowns are necessary.
Feel invited to read the thread.
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Didn't seem like he needed any slowdown perks. He just kept chasing the guy until the gens popped because he didn't protect them. lol
This thread is just a bad example.
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And how exactly would you protect 5 gens spread out on a map that takes the average m1 killer 30 seconds to traverse?
Ideally as soon as you leave this one survivor he will stick to the first best gen he finds. Guide me through your math here.
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Not sure if the "mindlessly going after them" argument works here 100%. Its lerys which means there's plenty of god windows/good pallets. So if you try to go back and forth between both survivors you'll just play the game out in a way still ends the same but takes longer.
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I don' think you get the context. Its lerys and we have no context of gen spread. So that could mean they could get 1 gen close to finished he kicks it and camps that gen with base regression but then the 2 people run across the map to work on 2 separate gens. Simply cannot defend gens without regression if they're spread especially on lerys.
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Very detailed and pretty accurate. You forgot one important factor though, the ways gen speeds and the birth of boons impact any of that data. CoH put a big dent in hit and run playstyles (making injuries without downs considerably less impactful) and multiple perks to help gen speeds like hyperfocus and prove thyself's updated form were introduced, as well as perks to replenish items like toolboxes.
You're not necessarily wrong, but there's a bit more to the picture that needs to be included as well. Gen times are just so terribly variable in either direction that whichever side relaxes first, loses.
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I have 5k hours, I do just fine the majority of the time with either no or very little gen regression.
Killers have a lot more freedom than they think, just need to put in the time
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If I could get a dollar for every meaningless post made on this forum I wouldn't have to work a day in my life.
This one is a verbose version of "git gud" and "skill issue"
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I mean its not necessarily their fault either, they have limitations that are completely out of their control but theyre also making it seem as if thats the norm
Gen regression definitely helps out, and theres no problem with running it. But is it necessary to win your games? Absolutely not
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Necessary for who?
Also what is the win condition here?
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Thank you grand master for lightening us with your knowledgeable post that is equal to "git gud scrub"
I don't care what anyone says if you playing a low-tier killer in this game you have to have some kinda slowdown to compete. You may not need it in a party of newbies but for any lobby with decent survivors or higher, you do need some kind of slowdown on lower-tier killers. The only ones I say you don't really need slowdown at the A and S rank killers. Instead of bragging about your hours how about you tell us what killers you get these wins on with no slowdown and how you do it? So a real tip could go a long way you know.
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Some people are making it seem as if you need gen regression to win games, do you even know what thread you're on?
Also win condition from what I can tell is a 3 or 4k, 2k is a tie and anything else is a loss. That seems to be the general consensus
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You didn't understand my question.
You are making grossly overgeneralized statements while selling them as an absolute.
Not only will you rub up against people but also achieve mothing with it. Nobody can learn from your knowledge because it's presented in a nonsensical way.
Unfortunately this is way too common here.
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Some Killers does use Slowdown to help them... Do they need it, NO but who cares
Others Killers don't use Slowdown... good for them
It's more like up to RNG (Survivors, Map, Spawns)
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yeah you 2 are right, I was in the middle of doing something and just wanted to type out a quick reply. I should of gave it a bit more thought. I'll try to go into a bit more detail now with my 3 mains at the moment. Trickster, Billy and Dredge. Just going to say this now though, it might be sloppy as I'm a bit tired while writing this.
As for how I usually go about games, I tend to brute force it by trying to end chases as fast as possible (I do this for Billy and Trickster) and do what I'd like to call a "30 seconds rule". When I see a Survivor and I start going towards them, I basically check for a few things. If they have a really strong loop with a window and I'm not even close, I drop the chase immediately to find some one else. As Trickster you waste WAY too much time chasing around a high wall loop, and as Billy the majority of strong window loops can be reacted to when you curve. When ever there isn't a strong window loop how ever I try to get either a health state, or a pallet. If I don't get those within 30 seconds I leave them to find the next Survivor (of course if I see an opportunity to get a down or maybe a really strong pallet out of the way, I will deviate away from this to benefit in the late game) . Doing this sudo hit and run style gets rid of pallets at a decent rate where usually getting a down towards the late game becomes much faster. Majority of my games do end up usually have 1 or 2 gens left, or just all gens being done.
As for Dredge I play it much differently. I still do that hit and run playstyle but my aim is to get into Nightfall. The information and mobility you have is pretty strong, especially for how long it lasts. While outside of Nightfall, aim for injuries and hooks to build Nightfall up as fast as possible, try teleporting to the Remnant as much as you can as well to add that extra little bit to Nightfall. While Nightfall is up, think of it as Oni's Demon Mode. You want to get as much value as possible from it, and to do so slugging is usually the way to go. The reason why you want to slug is because you want to save the points that you can get to build towards your next Nightfall. A good perk for this is Knockout, depending on the map even experienced coordinated Survivors can get disoriented, and it becomes a bit harder to call out where exactly they are.
Now of course like any strategy, neither of these strategies are perfect. Medkits absolutely destroy both of these, especially the more there are. How ever I've found a good bit of success while doing so. I'm sorry for the initial post @Unknown2765
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And again, I don't think any rules about short chases really apply once you're stuck on a barely-used Leries with two Survivors. Breaking chase with one is just going to take you to the other and the same deal, and unless you're really banking on being lead to the one tile you just cleared, it's not great.
All of which is only tangential to my actual intended point, which is "when there can be enough time on the maps from noninteractive to borderline noninteractive pallets alone to buy several minutes, it's no wonder zero slowdown feels super risky for minimal reward. Not every game is going to have an absolute potato and a flashlight spammer to counter the time pressure.
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I mean if youve reached a point where theres only 2 survivors left and theres still gens.. i dont think you can lose that unless you yourself make a lot of mistakes
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"But the amount of slowdown people want to bring does seem to have kept creeping gradually upwards."
Because stacking Slowdown is the easiest way to play Killer.
Why even bother thinking about a build which somewhat compliments the power of the Killer, when you can just slap on the same 3 or 4 Slowdown-Perks, which work on every Killer? (Which is easier AND probably more succesful)
If you drag out the game long enough, every Killer can win, because even if the Survivors are better than the Killer, without any ressources, they will go down pretty quickly.
Furthermore, I think the reveal that MMR is based on Kills and Escapes has drifted the game more into "I want to win" than "I want to have fun". So players are more inclined to use the really strong stuff so that they can say "I am at high MMR", even if this does not mean anything, since MMR is not working at all. (at least the currently implemented version)
So players, and I feel especially Killers, since I see more variety in Survivor-Builds latey, just slap on 3-4 Slowdown-Perks which are not that fun to use, but lead to more 4Ks, than just using Perks they like and have fun with and maybe get less 4Ks.
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Yes, which is why there was enough time to find out how much time just going between the pallets here could burn.
Ah, but what I'd consider a correlation is that it gets more fun as a Killer is when the map has at least been half-stripped of resources, when there are actually deadzones to push people towards and good looping can't automatically extend a chase just by chaining together expendable resources.
But getting to that point requires, well, time.
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Yes, but while they just thought that in the past, now they mist certainly really need it.
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....what I gathered from "come 1v1" is, that pretty much regardless of the map, a survivor who is roughly as good as the killer will last 90~120sec during the first chase, and somewhat shorter during the second one - sometimes the other way around. (which works out in your scenario; since as you said the map was basically fresh.)
A killer who is better will usually get them in under fourty seconds in both chases --- or the first one is rather long but the second one is really short. A surv who's much better than the killer seems to be able to run them pretty much forever.
And what I gathered from that in return is that if a survivor is really skilled and can run tiles optimally, then a killer will lose if they don't have sth really strong. - But the question is: should devs assume every surv is gonna run tiles optimally? I don't think so. Mostly because the vast majority of players doesn't know how to, on both sides, --- and even those that do know are presented with deadzones in most matches and unable to utilise their skill.
That being said, I would love if chase revolved around more scarce resources that last much longer if you mindgame and make for short chases/rapidly depleted resources if not --- but reducing resources does not work if the overall trend seems to be to chase survs away from tiles and/or forcing to predrop by removing the mindgame from the equation.
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That's the crux of dbds game design. Some survivors are so good, they can run you for 3 gens before going down while greeding every. Single. Palett to the max and only using up like 3 in the process.
If you don't realize as the killer what you got yourself into and switch survivors fast, then you basically lost the game with the very first chase you started. Once the killer realizes this, they might resort to camping and tunneling, either because a normal game flow is impossible at that moment, or because that 3min chase survivor is "too dangerous to be kept alive and allowed back into the game", leading to some other unfun situation and a different flavor of salt.
I call this the victim of one's success problem, but every time I brought this up, people get very protective and passive-aggressive, claiming that its super scummy to punish and camp a survivor for "just playing good" and that "greeding and conserving palettes is the hallmark of a great survivor". This might all be true, but it also backs the killer against the wall and might even lead a chill and otherwise sympathetic and empathic killer to equip CoB/Eruption combo, just because the game is way too hectic and stressful otherwise.
I don't know what is the solution, but the games balanced mid is failing and dying, getting devoured and spit out by hyper efficiency on both sides (gen rushing vs CoB/Eruption plus tunneling).
I guess the only solution would be a hard rework of the basic system and an AI director that influences the side that is above the curve, this game, locking gens or causing breakdowns that need items ferried over from the other side of the map, or causing auto sabos when the killer carries survivors to their death hook at 4 gens or spawing suspicious medkits in the corner a survivor is hiding in.
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If you had two out, with two to go, and kills ACTUALLY mattered to you for some ungodly reason, you could've dropped chase when the survivor clearly showed they were going to play like this, and find the other one possibly in a worse scenario.
Instead, you focused, probably didn't do many mindgames, just kicked every single one instantly, and then lost then came here to complain.
Yes, you'll lose some, sometime slowdown feels necessary, and it is, but there's no need for four.
I usually run just pop, or maybe pain res, and then three chase perks and normally end the game with 9 or 10 hooks, 2-3 kills.
Just accept you won't 4k everytime, realistically you should be 4king less then ~60% of the time, even if you're fairly good.
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Well said.
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Except kills didn't matter. If they mattered, I wouldn't have been running four aura perks in the first place. It's quite straightforward: after running such a build, I didn't see much point to breaking off the chase to go for the other survivor; maybe it would go faster, maybe they would go do the same thing, maybe they'd try and go into a deadzone.
'Complain about the outcome' wasn't why I made the thread, because if you reread the post, you'd see that I won by the usual standards of 3k=win. I made it because a scenario like that shows how much time there can be in the map in pallets alone, and when games are closer or no Survivors get out, hm, no wonder it feels like not bringing slowdown is shooting yourself in the foot. And yeah, four slowdown would be completely overboard, but it just seems to live in an odd spot where you can get maps with enough inherent delay lying around that there's no room for error.
(It was also, as I noted, Lery's--it's not exactly got the most excitingly positioned pallets for most of the map)
Not really? A lot of the direct responses are impressive in a 'I read into this opening what I wanted to and have missed every post made since repeating what the intended point is' way, really shows off how many people just read the initial post in a thread and then skip to writing a response.
I've repeated my point like five times now because of this, since direct replies appear to be the only thing anyone's going to notice. <_>
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Not really, its just the rest of the perks don't have as much of an impact nowadays.
Back in the day when maps in general were much larger, had more pallets, and healing was faster. Killers opted for perks to deal with those better. Perks like Nurses Calling, Brutal Strength, Whispers, Enduring, NOED, and more were used over gen regression simply because they didn't have many options for gen regression. Over the years they've nerfed healing, looping and made maps brighter with less tall grass making it harder to hide. Perks that covered these just didn't become as useful as new options for gen regression came out.
From what it looks like, the devs see this as well and I think they might be trying to push the game into a more info perk based meta by making gen regression not needed as much (increased gen times). All of the current perks in the gen kick meta also give some form of information. The most recent killers as well have all brought pretty strong perks to locate Survivors, if we look at just the last 4, they all have very solid options. Sadako brought Floods of Rage, Dredge brought Darkness Revealed, Wesker brought Awakened Awareness, and Knight brought Nowhere to Hide.
Its been a long time since the meta wasn't just some form of gen regression. We're in an era where its probably the least needed in the history of DbD. I really hope we can get something else. A true meta shake up
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So to the people who say "stop chasing the one Survivor"
Aren't aware of the fact that once the Killer drops chase 2 things will happen
1) The Survivor who just won the chase... will find a Gen and start working on it
2) The Killer has to spend time to find the other Survivor... which might lead to the Gen getting done either way
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I appreciate your longer, well thought through responses much more then catch phrase one-liners :)
I am tired from work, so I will just write a short answer myself, though :P
On the whole I agree with you. While the kick meta is strong and I have dabbled with it on occasion, just to test it out, my most successful killer build is basically 100% info and zero percent regression, ie Lethal Pursuer/Awakened Awareness/I am all ears/No where to hide with Pyramid Head, and I am doing extremely well with those. The games are alwas pretty dangerous, but its also always a dangerous business, as one misstep can get you tumbleing down to an ignoble defeat.
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OTOH, at the same time, the game has moved in a direction where trying to slow healing doesn't return the investment. 16s heals are almost a myth; the bloodweb changes mean there's almost no reason to not have a medkit (or a toolbox with all its problems) of some kind, and Circle of Healing continues to provide its buff and free self-heals. If healing can be limited (going by the recent tournament), suddenly sloppy butcher comes out once again because now it does have an effect on increasing risk or slowing the game down.
Aura Reading slips into its own strange boat. For one, Distortion can just turn if off, but on the other, it's often better to use an add-on than bring an aura perk. Then we have durations that are set with the existence of Lethal Pursuer in mind, and let's not pretend that they didn't get way less attractive when BBQ stopped having a BP bonus. Removing incentive to spread hooks and bring an aura perk (and a built-in goal aside from win) definitely hasn't helped the health of the game or meta.
chase perks are just a forgotten middle child of only occasionally providing enough time benefit to be worth it.
(and all this aside, apart from the healing times, the comical potential variability in how fast a gen is done is not helping matters for either side)
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Thats why you make sure you know where another Survivor is when you drop chase..
also them starting a brand new gen at 0% is better than a Survivor continuing a gen thats at 50%
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