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Eruption Encourages Tunneling
I know this isn't necessarily an original take but it's definitely something I've been noticing. There's this constant gameplay loop of a killer getting their first down, leaving to kick gens, then returning to tunnel out. In my observation that's because Eruption only works if you can snowball kills, and tunneling the injured survivor out is the quickest way to keep Eruption proccing.
This feels like a problem to me because it denies survivors any meaningful gameplay where their choices aren't significant at all. With constant incapacitation (sometimes coupled with pain res/dead mans switch.) It becomes this wretched game of just staring at a generator just waiting to do something meaningful only to have any meaningful contribution stripped from you entirely.
It's not only boring, and annoying it's also very powerful. This is combining three of some of the most powerful concepts Killers can play with. Tunneling survivors out have the benefit of turning the game into a 3v1 incredibly fast. It also means survivors are likely to kill themselves through trying to be altruistic. Additionally this combination of perks regresses gens then simultaneously makes sure that survivors cannot do anything for extended periods of time.
Now that's not to say that Killers shouldn't get powerful tools, they absolutely should. But I believe that it creates this unhealthy gameplay loop where in both instances (Being the tunneled, and the other survivors in the game) survivors are just resigned to accept fate. This is especially true in solo queue.
Unfortunately, I don't really have any suggestions or ideas on how to improve this. I've found myself rolling my eyes when I see someone hard tunnel on their first kill because "Oh I bet you have eruption don't you?" and voila, in every single case the past few days they do. As a survivor main it is getting to a point where I'm feeling the urge to just kill myself whenever I see another tunneling eruption player or doing something more meaningful with my time. I probably should do either, after all this is just a game and if I'm not having fun why am I still here. Force of habit I suppose.
Comments
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I get that you don't like Eruption, but by that definition of "encouraging tunneling" you could essentially apply it to nearly every single gen regression perk that exists.
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This is a bit of a stretch. Eruption procs on any kind of a down. Literally any injured Survivor will do.
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I think you meant to say slugging to keep pressure, have never experienced a killer tunnel to keep Eruption proccing, and sounds like more waste of time for the killer than they'd lose slugging.
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Body blocking on the unhook encourages me to tunnel. Thats really the only thing that does it.
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I think maybe it enables tunneling a bit too much.
If it procs I have basically 30 seconds of free time to tunnel someone.
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Flashlights encourages tunneling. As killer main I'll tunnel out people who blind me when I'm trying to hook. Don't care if you just got off your going right back up.
It pretty much applies to anything...
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so how are i and/or my teammates supposed to unhook/save? are we supposed to give you a free grab? i'll never get the entitlement killers have.
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Boo hoo
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I had to chase that clown down!
If two minutes of circling a pile of trash doesn't ENTITLE me to a hook, what does?
But, I don't care. I use Lightborn.
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Oh, the tears rolling down my face. I wish someone were here to collect them.
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Sounds like a lot of clowning around
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The thing is that a lot of killers might be nice then you think and let you go away after getting unhooked to reset (unless it's the end game already), but certain actions will void your immunity and signify to its that you're OK to stay in the game abs don't need or want no time out. Bodyblocking to shield the unhooker and "abuse" the basekit BT is the most prominent contender, but blinding the killer and potentially destroying some of their work and win condition is a hot follow-up.
EDIT: and of course, we all have our pet peeves. That other guy gets triggered by beamers, I get triggered by sabotage attempts. I have so severely burned by sabos in the past that I will usually come down unreasonable hard on you. You touch my hooks, you die, and if I have to hardtunnel and camp you and basically throw the game.
What grinds your gears? :)
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I have mixed feelings on certain playstyles and feel it's part of the game.. due to bad game design.
I could see if survivors were BMing, then all means necessary. Can you blame them for body-blocking the unhooker when the killer can just tunnel the unhooked survivor out? If the killer can tunnel someone out, why can't survivors protect them from being tunneled, since how common tunneling is? It's part of the game. The game allows it.
What grinds your gears? :)
Honestly, when killers/survivors BM for no reason, run a killer for a whole game and only 1 gen pops when I finally get caught, slugged and/or tunneled at 4-5 gens. Teammates that throw, the norm. Entitlement being the biggest.
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I think its just that those who run really unfair broken (Eruption based) builds probably have little concern for the misery they inflict on others so they wont hesitate to play in a scummy way.
I think the fact they get to use their broken perk more easily if they do tunnel is just a cherry on top for these people and as I keep saying, the base mechanics of the game need to punish this or the player base is going to keep dropping as its becoming very unfun to deal with on a constant basis
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Agreed. If you bodyblock and annoye me instead of running away when you are rescued.. Ill put you back to the hook.
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Nerfing Eruption just isn't enough for you is it?
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Well I'm not sure how to nerf it functionally. I wasn't really suggesting a specific nerf in any direction. I wanted to bring up that it encourages tunneling and when stacked with other shutdown perks the gameplay becomes very unfun and a complete turnoff. By definition though Dead by Daylight is very Killer versus Survivor so I know the survivors fun is non of the killers concern by design. But it should be the developers concern. If there was a way to keep it's overall strength without shutting down survivors actions/ability to complete gens for nearly a minute per down+hook (with a potential of hitting 3 survivors max per proc) I would argue that would be a fine direction.
No idea what that would look like though. I'd like to be able to constantly be involved in making decisions, choices, and meaningful actions whenever I play a game.
I know the below picture is DMS but it still illustrates the kind of gameplay that isn't really gameplay. It's just waiting. Most times it's just waiting to lose.
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Dead Hard encourages tunneling too.
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Eruption does not encourage tunneling, it only encourages being a being gen kicking npc, it's the player wanting to tunnel for whatever reason, that being said I'm pretty sure this perk is gettin nerfed down the line
Post edited by Entitled_survivor on0 -
This just sounds like grasping at straws. Eruption has nothing to do with tunneling.
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Killers tunnel because if you try to two hook everyone before killing anyone, you've probably already lost. Against decent opponents, you have to try and eliminate someone early. Yes, it's not especially fun for that person, but you can't exactly blame the killer for approaching the game like this.
Eruption is popular because it's the most effective form of regression killers have access to at present.
Once the forums get it Thana'd, it'll be PR+DMS every game until that gets nerfed too. Then probably CoB and Overcharge. And on and on we go.
That said - Eruption and tunneling don't really go well together, because once it triggers you need to reapply it. And why is the tunneled person sticking around while they reapply? I'm...not seeing it.
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But the Killer has to kick Gens... how does that encourage Tunneling???
Like how can the Killer Tunnel and kick Gens
Tunneling- not caring about what other Survivors do but so focused on one Survivor
Eruption- has to kick Gens and down Survivors... it's a snowball perk
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Here is a novel idea. Move away from the hook and actually allow survivors a chance to play the game. If you weren't camping the hook you wouldn't get body blocked during unhooks. 😕
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I mean it sort of makes sense. After a hook the killer is kicking gens, not looking for other survivors. This means that they haven't found anyone else by the time the unhook happens, and when the killer is in that position, the correct play is usually to return to the hook.
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You can tone down the numbers to allow the perk to be less severe and still do its intended job. 15 seconds of Incapacitation instead of 25, and making Incapacitation apply only to the survivors repairing whichever Erupted gen has the most progress would be fair.
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No.
I'm always away from the hook anyway. I don't face camp or even area camp, I can't be bothered, as its not usually fun.
I am going to tunnel the person that just came off the hook if they run back in my face, 360 and beg for a tunnel.
You're welcome, they're welcome. As a person who sometimes plays a killer, I always aim to provide the audience with what they want.
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I think survivor mains should give up this idea that the killer can hook everybody sequentially, but is just choosing not to. In the top bracket, there isn't enough time before 5 gens are done to make sure that everybody is hooked fairly and it is fairytale nonsense to believe otherwise. Please stop trying to generate all kinds of momentum toward nullifying everything the killer can do to stop progress. The game does not need to devolve into some kind of horror-themed cakewalk.
Besides, Dead Hard canceled the Eruption proc and won the game so often I've personally stopped using Eruption entirely at this point.
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Sorry, but your comments read like you actually don't play survivor at all.
The most common playstyle these days is for a killer to get a down, quickly kick the nearest gen to set up eruption, go back to the hook to block the unhook, and it's all just going through the motions from there. Do you think the killer is going across the map and back? No. He is staying as close as possible to the hook while not instigating other chases, just kicking the closest gens which could absolutely be part of a 3-gen which basically secures the win with one perk.
It's certainly not how I play when I do killer, which is about half the time I play. Maybe it isn't how you play, but it is by far the most common playstyle to face right now.
It has also been explained to you how overtuned Eruption is, so please don’t pretend you don't understand exactly how OP it is.
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A lot of things encourage me to tunnel. Does that mean all of them should be buffed to help prevent me from tunneling them? No because if a survivor wants to get in my face to force a hit then they can get punished by being out of the game earlier than I wanted too.
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Eruption requires you to kick gens after the cooldown is over to get value from it. In other words, it often requires you to leave survivors or give them a headstart to kick gens. While I do think Eruption needs changes, it's the least "tunneling-encouraging" of all the gen-regression perks.
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Killers would most likely engage in this sort of behavior with or without Eruption. It's unwise to commit to another chase when you have an impending unhook to punish unless you're confident you can end said chase very quickly.
Still, you need to keep yourself busy somehow before the unhooker comes. So you go to the nearest gen. If a survivor's there, cool, maybe you can nab a quick injury, or maybe they pre-ran and it'd take too long. Either way, since the unhooker's probably about to arrive by the time you reach that generator and you don't have time for another full chase, now's a good time to give it a quick kick and head back. Again, with or without Eruption.
And this is also a behavior that Killers will engage in whether they fully intend to tunnel or not. Going back to the hook is a guaranteed opportunity to interrupt multiple survivors at once, and likely to get an easy hit too.
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Uh...what?
- Yes, I play survivor...about 60/40 in favor of killer.
- Going off Nightlight, PR is still more common than Eruption.
- That's absolutely not the most common playstyle, either in my own games or watching streamers.
- How is the killer automatically hooking folks in your equation?
- Watching the community cup, killers ran Eruption, slugged, tunneled, camped and still had close/losing games - on killer sided maps against survivor teams that had strict restrictions on what they could bring.
- Is Eruption overtuned? Against solos...I wouldn't say 'overtuned', I'd say 'annoying'. It's fine against SWF.
- We cannot balance this game around solo queue.
- What you're describing isn't what the OP is describing, and that's what I was responding to.
- Does Eruption need a change? Eh...maybe. Let it work on hook, rather than on down so it has a bit more reliable counterplay. But we both know that it won't put a dent in the complaining.
No, that would completely gut the perk.
Keep it as is, make it work on hook rather than on down so folks can counter it in solo a bit easier.
Yeah, this stuff grinds my gears a bit.
I hook someone, but there's a survivor following me like a puppy and immediately tries to unhook in my face. So, okay? I let them unhook, down them and hook them.
5 seconds later, the person who got unhooked is sitting on a gen about 2m away and gets grabbed. They then DC and call me a tunneler in postgame.
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1) 60/40 which actually means 80/20, and that 20 is SWF. Sure.
2) I played 12 games as survivor today. Not a single killer was without Eruption. These players are on the Korean server. None of them are using whatever site Nightlight is. Without exaggeration, easily 95%+ of the killers I go against have Eruption.
3) it is almost the only playstyle used on this server. If you don't experience it you are either low mmr or very lucky when you do happen to play solo queue.
4) what..?
5) Of these strange tournaments I've seen there are always players who seem to be absolutely new at the game.
6) this point tells on you so badly
7) ah, because you said so
8 + 9) you really should think more about your strong bias before posting.
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- Shrug. This weird attempt at an ad-hom fails...mostly because I have no idea why you're even trying it.
- Why would the Korean server have a different meta to the rest of the world? And no your claim of 12 games doesn't trump the actual data we have available.
- 'I don't believe your anecdotal evidence. Now here's my anecdotal evidence. Believe it!'.
- Your story: Killer gets a down. Killer kicks gen. Killer blocks unhook. There's a missing step in this, unless he's just leaving people slugged - in which case, BHVR have a change to slugging in the works. If he's kicking the gen after the hook, that's time enough to unhook. If the killer is kicking the gen before hooking, that's time to sabo or set up a save. Either way, you know that gen is Erupted now and have plenty of time to let go before the next down, then just get back on it.
- Community Cup...absolutely new players...I'm going to let you Google a few things and you'll see why this gave me a chuckle. (Hint: There's nobody absolutely new to the game in this tournament, it's as close to an official tournament as DbD has).
- Eruption is fine against SWF. I'll stand by that, 100%. It is a problem against solos, but only because it's difficult for solos to tell when someone is about to go down. So...make it work like PR does.
- No, because...reality? Survivors can choose to play in a SWF. Killers cannot choose not to face SWFs. You thus cannot balance the game around solos, because that makes SWF almost unbeatable at the same MMR, which would be...massively unfair to killers, unless you give them the option to not play against SWFs.
- He's talking about a killer that can mysteriously reapply Eruption to gens while also tunneling someone off hook. You're talking about a killer that can mysteriously hook someone while reapplying Eruption.
- That's not a counter argument to...literally anything I said. Remember - when you have to resort to a dodge or an ad-hom, you concede the point.
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The killer being able to to tunnel encourages tunneling. We got basekit BT before eruption was even used because that was the strongest strategy, eruption has nothing to do with it.
Does Eruption have to be nerfed? Yeah it 100% does cuz by the numbers it's by far the strongest regression perk to ever exist by a wide margin and the the only real counter to it seems to be gen rush as much as you can before it procs which I don't think anybody is happy about and incapacitated is kind of a dumb status effect.
BHVR trying to solve this through perks like hyperfocus, potentisl energy and the like is just creating an unhealthy arms race for both sides which is just going to make nerfing gen regression in the future more difficult when they're giving survivors all these tools to do gens faster.
But that being said tunneling and eruption are unrelated and I don't think there's any perks that encourage tunneling at least not in the same way say insidious directly encourages camping. You can say it's related cuz eruption procs on downs but killers were already using that logic for getting kills and pressure in general so eruption didn't change the equation much.
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1) That is not what "ad-hom" is.
2) The data from the unofficial site, which as I already showed you does not account for even close to a majority of the players. Sigh..
3) Based on several of the posts you have made. It is pretty clear you don't understand DBD very well.
4)...lol...? Like, sorry. It's just funny.
5) Not going to bother.
6) You were quite clearly saying Eruption was completely fine, no issue, for quite a while. Now it should work as PR does? Soon you will be saying Eruption is actually an issue.
7 - arguing with yourself. 8 - again, arguing with yourself. 9 - please, just stop. If you look back in a few months at your posts from these eruption threads you will be quite embarassed..
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It generally means 'they're right, and I have no counter argument but I'll be damned if I admit it, so I'll just dodge by shifting it back to the person making the point'.
Chalk it up as a W and move on.
- Uh...What? Yeah, it is. A textbook example. You made an accusation. I explained why you were wrong. You then essentially called me a liar, rather than trying to give a counter or even...you know, checking my posting history, where I literally discuss my survivor games or defend survivor perks against QQ. A recent WoO thread immediately comes to mind.
- I forget the name for this fallacy (an ATS fallacy, maybe?) - briefly, unless you can provide a more representative sample or more accurate stats, you don't get to hand wave away data because you don't like what it indicates. Nightlight isn't perfect, but it seems pretty decently representative based on my own observations in game, and the streamers I watch. Again, if you've got better or more representative data, I'd be happy to take a look. Otherwise - the numbers are the numbers. You're not seeing the same Eruption strat in *literally every game* - that's hyperbole.
- /eyeroll. Once again, if your only response to someone's point is an ad-hom then you concede that point. You don't get to say 'well, your argument is anecdotal' and follow it up with an anecdotal argument.
- See above. Your story did not make any sort of logical sense, because nowhere in your story was the killer actually spending time hooking people.
- I wonder why XD. It's...almost like you didn't bother actually looking up what the Community Cup was before claiming that it was full of new players. Which is...amusing.
- Shrug. No, I've maintained that Eruption is fine against SWFs and - while it can be a problem against solos - this game can't be balanced around solo queue and it can still be countered, albeit less reliably, by using aura reading perks like Fogwise or Empathy. My stance is basically 'well, forum QQ is going to get it nerfed anyway, so let's at least try tweaking it slightly first before Thana-ing it'. Because I'm sick and tired of killer perks getting gutted when a small tweak would suffice.
- No, I'm explaining why you can't balance around solo queue.
- No, I'm explaining why accusing me of bias is...just really odd?
- No, I'd expect I'd be vindicated, because exactly what I've said in other threads has come true. Eruption gets a tweak to make it easier to counter, but survivors continue to complain. So it gets gutted, like Thana. Or Ruin. And the forum QQ train just moves on to PR+DMS, or STBFL, or CoB, or whatever the current killer meta is - because that's how it goes.
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Let me sum this up:
Gen Regression/Blocking/Incapacitated makes the Game unfun for Survivors bcs they cannot tunnel their objectives (Gens) and therefore needs to get nerfed, so survivors can have fun again.
You are adding the argument, that playing these perks encourages the Killer to tunnel his objective which is also unfun for survivors and is therefore another reason to nerf that playstyle.
So basically, the Killer is playing against you, that is unfun for survivors, so it should get nerfed.
You sure you dont want to play a PvE Game instead?
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Yeah down the line slowly after a certain quota of cash is made from Nemesis.
Just like licensed perks appear after 2+ years in the shrine of secrets. (Soul Guard was never been shrined)
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for me it's the opposite. i never have to tunnel people because eruption/brine works so well. just patrol gens, try to get a hit here or there, drop chase, patrol gens, get a down, hook, patrol gens, get a hit, kick, patrol gens, get a down, hook, etc. main thing i want survivors to do is to drop pallets near gens so i can slowly grind out all the resources they have to defend themselves. no tunneling required, double pip almost every game w/ 50k+ bps.
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Yeah, it actually kinda works against tunneling it in that it incentivizes killers to drop chase to kick gens. That's one of the things about the gen kick meta, you actually see killers break off chase to kick gens way more often than during the passive regression meta.
Eruption is problematic for a couple of reasons, but none of those are related to tunneling. Unless one were to define tunneling as the killer hitting them once and then trying to down them, but that would be absurd.
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I'm actually gonna argue the opposite, which is that the perk and CoB rewards not tunneling. Since they require no effort to be applied to gens, they provide very effective forms of gen defense and incentivize the killer to pressure and defend gens instead of just hard focus a survivor out of the game.
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Last month felt like a roller coaster. We went from complaints about camping/tunneling to complaints about killers kicking gens.
At this point i don´t even know what the community wants.
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The community wants killers to give them free wins, basically.
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100%.
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No, they just want a fair and balanced game. Current meta isn't balanced.
Voicing an opinion/feedback on just that doesn't mean "free wins". Unless you think those who voiced their opinion on old DS and old DH also wanted "free kills". Doubtful.
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If killers aren’t allowed to camp, tunnel, slug, or guard 3 gens, then how do you expect them to not lose? Especially against 4 man SWFs with full meta load outs on Discord?
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Survivor efficiency encourages tunneling. The better a team is the more a killer has to try and close the objective time gap.
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Why wont you just go for the person that you hit when they body blocked you?
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