Slug update WHEN!?
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Plus if they go for the save and get downed the killers just gonna say "Shouldn't have been the hero and just made the smart play, just let them bleed out". Either move you make, you lose. Either you're a selfish coward for waiting it out or a greedy fool for trying to get the save. The killer mains are gonna say whatever they can to keep the game as easy for them as possible. Gotta coddle those power complexes.
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Having a hatch in the game suggests that the last survivor alive will have a chance to escape. Slugging 1 of the last 2 survivors so that the killer can 4k takes away that mechanic so how it is playing as the game suggests? Bleed out timer can be extended for however long the killer decides. About to die? Pick up survivor. If they wiggle free, just down them again and pick them up. If you think the other survivor is working on a gen then just go kicking gens then back to downing the survivor. A match shouldn't be drawn out to that extent because a killer decides that they don't want a mechanic to trigger that was put in for the last survivor.
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Stop caring about 4 escapes!
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The one issue with your statement regarding the bleedout timer is that there is a limit as to how much time is available. Even with max stacks of STBFL there is a 1.5 second cooldown before pick up so between 1 and 2 seconds of bleedout will happen with each down.
So what that means is if the bleedout timer is mostly expended already the killer can only do it a few times at most and the other survivor can keep track of where the killer is and hide accordingly. If the killer does it early in the bleedout with wiggle outs and multiple downs it gives plenty of time to try and get the last 1 or 2 gens done.
Hatch in itself is problematic, I will explain why. There are essentially 3 different outcomes in a match:
1. Killer dominates
2. Fairly close/even match
3. Survivors dominate
Ok so hatch is reasonably fair in scenario #2 it creates a chance for the last survivor to escape and I would consider it about a 50/50 for hatch or door overall in this scenario. As hatch spawn is rng, door spawn is rng on most maps and on the ones its predetermined I still say 50/50 because midwich/the game favors killer and lerys/rpd favours survivor, and overall it averages out.
In scenario #3 there is no penalty whatsoever when survivors dominate a killer, there is a literal point in the game when the killer has 0 chance of winning and has to accept it. I will come back to this point.
In scenario #1 when the killer is dominating a match that should be 90% in their favour, turns into a rng fused 50/50 for the last survivor. This isnt really a fair system which is why you see killers slug for the 4k to avoid it, they are literally punished for playing well.
Now lets go back to scenario #3, imagine in that scenario when you try to go out the gate there is a 50% chance all survivors would get teleported back into the map in an injured state and broken and you have to try and get out a second time with that single health state, I would bet you'd think that was pretty unfair having your victory snatched away from you.
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So it's only considered a win if you kill all 4 survivors? Is 4k the only goal here? I can reason with it if it's an achievement or some sort of challenge to get but I would bet that most people here would agree on killing 3 survivors is a win. 4 is the icing on the cake. For survivors, to each their own on what they consider a victory. If I did most of the work and I escape, I would consider that a victory. If it's a close match and at least 2 escape, it's a win. If we get dominated and one person escapes, it's a loss.
I can't get with your logic either. The ONLY thing that is in favor for the survivor in hatch, outside of offerings, is the rng of the hatch. Even with the offering, you can see if someone burned something for hatch spawn. The only other thing to help with hatch is key, which not very many people carry, or a perk which is a waste of a slot. Once hatch spawns, if it's not next to a survivor, favor goes to killer finding it because survivor has to both avoid the killer and find hatch. One scenario is rng to escape while your scenario is playing the match all over again but with a severe handicap. It's not even a role reversal or equal comparison.
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I feel like this is the Survivor equivalent to when CoH came out and people were saying to just commit to chases and stop running hit and run builds and Killers.
Either way, if the Killer wants a 4k and there's only two Survivors left, slugging is the best option since the objective is to kill the Survivors. Get up, make something to eat, watch a video, or quit the game and take a timeout. No rules say the Killer can't do this and, I'm not advocating it but, it'd be hard to prove that someone is teaming if they were also killed.
Now if you think about it, wouldn't that also mean that giving the last Survivor hatch is teaming? Thoughts like this are generally really vague and have so many loop holes that can lead to double standards and hyprocrisy because of how linear the view is.
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I dont believe I used the word winning at all in my post, however if you are trying to pip up for season rewards especially in gold/iridescent a 4k helps towards that more than 3k and is almost required for a double pip and even for a single pip sometimes depending on how the last survivor has been playing.
As for my logic when it comes to EGC being 50/50, it starts with hatch spawn being 50/50 on spawning near the killer or survivor, if neither the killer has basically 1 choice which is find and close hatch, unless they are running an aura perk and know where the last survior is and can initiate chase because they are close.
The survivor on the other hand can search for hatch, if they have been paying attention and know where doors are they can instead post up near a door and play for the door escape, which depending on rng the success odds can go either way, but most times as long as the doors aren't too close together its not too hard to escape through the door. There is also the rng of chests because you can find a key in a chest or have brought one and stashed it and stealthily follow the killers terror radius to find roughly where hatch is to unlock it.
There are alot of total factors to EGC but if you average them all out with hatch and door it is a multitude of 50/50 RNG.
As to this statement, "One scenario is rng to escape while your scenario is playing the match all over again but with a severe handicap. It's not even a role reversal or equal comparison."
You are way off base. Calling it playing the whole match over again is completely false as all 5 gens are done and one or both doors are open depending on what you did prior to escaping, so right there things are definitely in favour of the survivors still winning with 3 out as when the killer downs 1 person everyone should be able to get out wthout too much issue, which is still a win right.
Post edited by kingcarl2012 on0 -
Okay, my mistake. I was using Victory and Winning synonymously. Regardless, to each their own on what a "Victory" is. I would like to know what the mindset is here. Honestly, I don't play killer. I intend to once I have them all prestige 3 so I can play around with perks and what not but I don't know what it takes to pip them. Hell, I don't know what it takes to pip as a survivor. I do know that If I spend a week playing, I can get Iri 1. That's with me "losing" more matches than I win. I'm not a great player, I can loop a killer for 5s-1 min depending on the killer and where they catch me in the map. I over analyze and it ends up bringing me to a dead zone and then I go down. Even with that, I can get Iri 1 pretty easily.
For the killer side, from my perspective on how easy it is to Iri 1 as survivor, I find it hard to believe that it would be hard to get Iri 1 as killer. Especially if you are playing killers that you are comfortable with and can control most of the matches. With that said, is it a race to get to Iri 1? I don't understand why the 4k is needed so bad that the rng of hatch is so inconceivable and needs to be eliminated altogether. If you are a casual player, I'm sure you can get Iri 1 within the month it gives you. If you are super casual, why does it even matter?
All but one of the rng's work in the killers favor besides where the hatch spawns. We have to pray that the hatch spawns close to us, we find a key in the chest beforehand (If we even look into chests AND it has to be a purple or red key), or the doors spawn across the map from each other. Even if the doors spawn far apart, if the map is open, killer can just walk a few meters and see them no problem. It's really not that easy to escape through the gate.
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Unbreakable ??
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Nobody ever answers the question,Why is it ok for survivors to do everything thing in their power to get everybody out,bodyblocking,flashlight,sabo,anything they can to get that 4th survivor out,but a killer is not supposed to go for a 4K?why are killer’s supposed to settle for 3but survivors are entitled to 4 escape?
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The killer is doing it for his deserved 4k, hatch escape is a pity escape that he chooses or not to give since he won, quit the whine
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Well not my fault the game is designed quite horribly.
Yes, the hatch means the last survivior has a chance to escape, and this is EXACTLY WHY killer does not want to kill the 3rd survivior. There is simply no logical reason to risk an escape when your goal is to get as many kills as possible. And basekit pickup won't change that.
What could change that is hatch spawning at 2 people, but that would be idiotic lmao
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Hopefully never. Not in the state it was on that PTB.
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That's not the point. The point is that the game suggests last survivor has a chance for escape. You don't like that suggestion so you take it upon yourself to eliminate it out the equation. Survivors have to survive just as killers have to kill.
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And again, the point of killer is to eliminate that "chance of escape".
The fact that the game introduces extra chance for the last survivior to escape while at the same time allowing the killer to prevent it from happening is simply bad design and that's all there is to it.
The devs themselves admitted that the hatch system is stupid because apparently hatch escapes don't affect MMR... It's basically a dumb coin toss that has no purpose.
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Yeah i have doesnt change the outcome if anything gives you more time to kill them.
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I know every type killer play is strategy to win even its borderline exploit (with BHVR failing to fix these sorts of things for 6 years). So I shall ask what kind of ez tricks can soloq survivors do to up there chances of escaping dramatically without even having to equip perks or addons? Remember slugging, camping and tunneling is basekit.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
Basekit UB is a huge nononononono,,,Basekit UB only for the 2 last survivors though would fix the "slug for a 4k" boring scenario
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It might never happen.
You need to realize that the devs try things that sometimes just don't belong in the game. Unbreakable whenever you want is honestly completely broken. If that came to the game it would drive a lot of killers away.
I wouldn't mind if unbreakable became base kit if we put in the test that happened a few years ago where survivors could only heal twice per trial. After that you are hurt for the rest of the game.
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Kinda funny how people many completely missed the point of what OP wants. They don't want basekit UB, they just want to not have 4 minutes of their time wasted because someone wants an end screen to have one more skull on it. Like, you won already. Respect peoples time please.
inb4 "B-but the clicky nea teabagged me at the exit gate last match and wouldn't leave until i push them out!1!!" Be the change you wanna see, not the problem.
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Huh? Thought point of killer was to sacrifice survivors to entity? You taking it to the extreme because you want nobody to even have a chance at escaping is your choice. Just because escaping from hatch doesn't affect MMR doesn't change the fact that it's still a mechanic in the game meant to give survivors a feeling of satisfaction. Do you have any resources stating that devs think hatch system is stupid or are you just making assumptions based on the mmr?
Anyways, justify however you want for killers to get their 4k. The uncommon occurrences of survivors getting the hatch isn't going to stop killers getting Iri 1. At the end of the day, it's just a game. Not killing every survivor in every match hurts nothing but your ego.
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Ego matters sometimes. Because people are people.
For instance - the other day I fired up a meme Demogorgon build and a flan to drop in and have some fun. Ran slap bang into a terrifyingly strong SWF who I'm convinced had smurfed their MMR down, spanked me raw and called me names in postgame.
I've also had survivors straight up cuss me out in postgame *for letting them go* in a blowout game with a super early DC.
And that's before the...probably hundreds of times I've been insulted and gloated at postgame by the person I gave hatch to. It's like...did you want me to down you and carry you to the thing to prove I gave it to you?
After a few games like that, I promise you that most folks are not going to be in a particularly merciful mood. And I don't think that's their fault.
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You got your feelings hurt by trolls and decided to take it out on the next person/people? If your ego is being hurt in a video game, maybe you should take some time to meditate. You brought a flan to a match, not knowing who your opponents are. You ran into a bad batch. Finish it and move on. Doesn't sound like that's helping anything but creating a chain of bad behaviors by giving the next group of possibility innocent survivors a bad time.
The original topic was that the OP doesn't want to be slugged for 4 minutes because the killer doesn't want last survivor to have a chance at hatch. We want to fix the issue because hatch is a mechanic in the game. Some killers are making it their objective to eliminate that mechanic for ego. Heck, I think you can still 4k even with the last survivor getting hatch? Not exactly sure how all that is calculated.
If hatch has to go, then so be it but I doubt it will change survivors playing hide and seek. I, personally, would like a give up option when down to the last 2 survivors. Chances of escaping through gate are pretty low so at that point, I would rather go to the next match then wait and see what the killer will do. If it's all about points, then give the killer sacrifice points for the white flag and so both sides will be happy.
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And what, pray tell, is an 'exploit'?
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
Gah, we get to do this again.
'You got your feelings hurt' is a deliberately loaded term - you're basically calling someone oversensitive. Rather than focusing on bad behavior from the original culprits, you're shifting the blame to the people who they set out to annoy...for getting annoyed at annoying behavior. This isn't someone being offended by something innocuous - you know that when you gloat at someone, you're deliberately trying to get under their skin. If you succeed - it's not their fault, it's yours.
This is a very normal, human response - if someone does something kind and is abused for it, they will be less likely to be kind in the future. I can guarantee you that if people thanked the killer for giving hatch, rather than turning it into an 'har har I win you lose uninstall' opportunity, it would happen a hell of a lot more.
Yes, a 'concede' button would be great on both sides.
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don't cry😔
whеn wе'll gеt basе kit noеd/bw/nwo thеy will fеar us
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Wrong, mori counts the same as 3rd hook since like 2 years ago. Killer's goal is to prevent surviviors from escaping by killing them, just not too fast.
Yes hatch is a mechanic in the game (duh) but it's a stupid and a pointless (from achieving goals perspective) mechanic.
Intuitively as a killer you should kill all surviviors you can, even if you have to slug for 4k, but counterintuitively it turns out that letting the last survivior escape through hatch gives the same result (other than less BP).
So it's clearly bad design and not killer's fault for doing what they believe they are supposed to do in the best way possible (or for just wanting more BP).
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So, you changed from "prevent survivors from escaping" to "prevent survivors from escaping by killing them". YOU feel that the hatch mechanic is stupid and pointless. Again, voice your opinion to the devs. That doesn't change the fact that it's a mechanic put in place for survivors to stop killers from killing everyone. Besides hackers and better players, this mechanic is the only other thing that is stopping a killer. Even then, rng has to work in the survivors favor, otherwise the killer STILL GETS TO KILL EVERYONE.
Gates are also a mechanic to prevent killer from killing everyone. Should we remove gens and gates too? We should just make this hide and seek with no time limit so that killer will always win?
I think it's a bit silly to trash on a mechanic, that was put in place to help survivors and doesn't even really favor them, because some killers can't fathom 1 survivor being let go. AFAIK, you can still 4k with 1 survivor escaping. If you are a good killer, majority of matches, you are going to get everyone. Why is it so bad that you have a few matches where someone escapes through the hatch?
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You said "Killer's goal is to prevent surviviors from escaping by killing them, just not too fast."
Why "not too fast"? What is the benefit to the killer in not killing off survivors as quickly as possible? For every survivor their team loses the chances of victory increase for the killer so it seems counterproductive to go "not too fast".
So what's the incentive?
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Survivors can’t fathom one survivor dying,thus all the sabo,bodyblocking flashlight saves at end game when killer is trying to pull out a 1k from a bad game.Killers are supposed to settle for whatever scraps Survivors think they are worth,while Survivors expect to be allowed to escape every time.
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So your saying it's easy for killers than I question your skills as a survivor.
I could hit you then there's anti-spetic which insta heal you in seven seconds, not only that when I hit you got a speed burst to make it to another strong loop.So I hit you again now the next time you use dead hard and get another speed boost to safe pallet.I finally down you pick you up and get flashlight stunned and some how you disappeared.And guess what all the gens got done in this one chase or 4 got done because two brought BPN,prove thy self,spine Chill swivel sockets and whatever other perk gives repair speeds because, there's a lot of them.
Now I down you again because you wasted all of my time ,of course I'm going to chase you to the end. I down you ,pick you up the Gen pops I get flashlight stun again and you fully recover from adrenaline because these are the games i have, and you think it's easy for killers?
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Not all survivors do this. Personally, I will straight out leave if killer has a hook during EGC and it's the only sacrifice for the match. Why are you promoting bad behavior with bad behavior? The point of this is to fix the problem, not encourage more problems. I don't even know why you even brought that to the argument.
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"the killer STILL GETS TO KILL EVERYONE"
As they should! Think about it: Hatch opens after the killer won the game already with 3 survivors dead. How exactly is it fair for a survivor that has already lost the match to get a second chance and even if they don't make it out via hatch get another second chance for the gates? The killer doesn't get another chance to kill you after you escaped, because it makes no sense.
Apart from that the killer has the same right to do everything in their power in order to make sure no one escapes as the survivors have the right to unhook people or try to deny hooks to make sure everyone survives.
Don't get me wrong, being slugged sure isn't fun but it is necessary to guarantee the 4k, which again is necessary for quite a few archives and every single killer adept.
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If you "think" that you won already, then why is it such a big deal that the last survivor has a chance at the hatch? Both trying to get hatch and gates are heavily favored towards the killer. I would even say that getting the gate as the last survivor is a 90% fail rate while getting hatch, survivors have to hope that it spawns near them.
Again, you are PURPOSEFULLY negating a mechanic put in place for the last survivor to have a chance. Are you so bad that you need to slug to get 4 kills? Is it so bad that 3/10 survivors will escape out of hatch? You are deterring away from killing every survivor in a match by letting that mechanic happen. You are simply playing the game as intended and it so happens that you didn't 4k some of them. Slugging to take away that mechanic is not what is intended or we wouldn't even have the hatch to begin with. If you have a problem with it, feedbacks and suggestions to devs is the better route. Getting into your feelings because you disapprove of it and taking it out on survivors is not helping anyone.
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Obviously I care because this is outdated and should not work in the way it does currently. If the killer plays well enough to defend the gens and kill 3 survivors, why exactly should the last survivor escape? Survivors should survive if they played well but hatch almost always goes to the player that does the least.
Also, how do a second and third chance for a survivor favor the killer exactly? That doesn't add up. I'm probably to deep "in my feelings" to understand that one, right?
Again why should a killer not be allowed to deny hatch? If they want to guarantee the 4k they will probably slug. Saying killers aren't allowed to do that is like saying that survivors are not allowed to take hits, go for pallet / flashlight saves, sabotaging hooks and the list goes on. Survivors will do anything in their power to deny the killer gets a hook or a kill because it's exactly what they should do. How is it not ok for a killer to go for the 4k, then? Their objective is to kill as many survivors as possible after all.
I'm viewing this from a very rational point. Killing 3 survivors and not slugging is nice but not smart. Basekit Unbreakable was not considered because of that. It was considered because some killers tend to slug to unhealthy extends, which is a different problem that has more to do with how certain killers work.
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Is it so bad that 1 survivor dies?I mean you have already won.Is it so important that you bodyblock the killer or blind him or anything else you can do to save that one last survivor?
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I've already pointed out in a previous comment that, I personally, do not do this. If it's EGC and last survivor got hooked, then I just leave. Again, you are trying to promote bad behavior with bad behavior which doesn't solve anything. Moving forward, it's pointless to try and argue with you since you are just trying to bring nonsensical things to validate nothing.
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Why exactly should the last survivor escape? They normally don't? You have no factual data that supports the statement that the hatch always goes to the player that does the least. The last survivor escapes because they so happened to find the hatch and escape through it. This does not always happen. If the killer plays well enough to defend gens and kill 3 survivors then blame the devs for putting in a system that gives the last survivor a chance to escape.
You are also trying to misconstrue words as well. I never said a second and third chance for a survivor favors the killer. You are trying to string together things don't belong. I said that "Trying to get hatch and gates are heavily favored towards the killer". What that means is that if both the killer and survivor are trying to find hatch, unless it spawns next to the survivor and gates are spread far apart, killer will get hatch and last survivor.
"Why should a killer not be allowed to deny hatch" - Where did I say you aren't allowed to deny hatch? You deny hatch by closing it and then guarding gates/hatch (If you are skeptical of a key). What slugging is doing is trying to negate the mechanic completely.
You are not viewing this very rational at all. You keep thinking that somewhere in here I'm saying killers shouldn't go for 4k which is not the point at all. Killers can get 4k with the hatch available. Does it throw a twist at the end and make you work for it a little differently? Yes. You know what else prevents you from achieving a 4k? Better survivors, bad mistakes on killers part, disconnects, etc. Why not just take all escapes away so killers can always 4k? At the end of the day, you have a problem with a mechanic that devs put into the game for last survivor to have a chance. Does this stop you from getting a 4k? If you are good, most of the time it won't. In the off chance that it does stop you, what did it hurt besides your ego?
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Why exactly should the last survivor escape? They normally don't? You have no factual data that supports the statement that the hatch always goes to the player that does the least. The last survivor escapes because they so happened to find the hatch and escape through it. This does not always happen. If the killer plays well enough to defend gens and kill 3 survivors then blame the devs for putting in a system that gives the last survivor a chance to escape.
You are also trying to misconstrue words as well. I never said a second and third chance for a survivor favors the killer. You are trying to string together things don't belong. I said that "Trying to get hatch and gates are heavily favored towards the killer". What that means is that if both the killer and survivor are trying to find hatch, unless it spawns next to the survivor and gates are spread far apart, killer will get hatch and last survivor.
"Why should a killer not be allowed to deny hatch" - Where did I say you aren't allowed to deny hatch? You deny hatch by closing it and then guarding gates/hatch (If you are skeptical of a key). What slugging is doing is trying to negate the mechanic completely.
You are not viewing this very rational at all. You keep thinking that somewhere in here I'm saying killers shouldn't go for 4k which is not the point at all. Killers can get 4k with the hatch available. Does it throw a twist at the end and make you work for it a little differently? Yes. You know what else prevents you from achieving a 4k? Better survivors, bad mistakes on killers part, disconnects, etc. Why not just take all escapes away so killers can always 4k? At the end of the day, you have a problem with a mechanic that devs put into the game for last survivor to have a chance. Does this stop you from getting a 4k? If you are good, most of the time it won't. In the off chance that it does stop you, what did it hurt besides your ego?
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In the majority of matches I play where I'm the last survivor, and have not been slugged which is about 50/50 (slug/no slug) the killer finds the hatch first anyway. Using within an average of 10 seconds of it spawning. Often less, I dont even bother looking for it anymore.
Even as a Pro survivor mechanic it's arguably more killer-accessible given their natural speed and pressure at the time. So I don't think it should be a factor in not providing a better counter to slugging imo.
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Good question.
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I didn't change it, it was obviously implied to begin with.
I think at this point you stopped following any kind of logic. Hatch is not here to let the last survivior escape, it's there to give them a chance to escape. So there is no guarantee they do, and it's entirely reasonable that killer will try to prevent this chance.
Hatch being pointless is not my opinion, it's literally in the game because hatch escapes don't affect MMR. The only benefit of hatch escape is not losing your item as survivior and killer getting a few less bloodpoints.
Post edited by Archimedes5000 on1 -
your goal as killer is not to kill at all, killing is just an eventual consequence same with escaping, it's to feed the entity and satisfy her, the goal for both sides is to gain as many bloodpoints as possible, not to rush to the ending, which is what the entity pays you for feeding it entertainment and emotion, if you kill too fast it tells you by giving you a lower rank, brutal killer and when you satisfy the entity your rewarded with merciless killer
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Mechanically, the goal as the KILLER is TO KILL. It's in the damn name.
The Killer does not win by making the Entity happy or spreading hooks around. He gets a positive message if he gets 3 or 4 kills, and 'Entity Displeased' at anything lower.
You're just pushing what you think the goal of the Killer is onto the game.
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Sure thing bud. Coming from someone who is clearly biased.
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That's not what i think, that's the lore of the game, you don't even kill anyone, you sacrifice them to the entity after filling them with juicy emotions from the ordeal you put them through, the entity consumes the emotions and plops the survivor back at the campfire without any memory of what happened, ready to go again
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MECHANICALLY, you kill them and remove them from the match.
Not lore. Not background. Not what you think. The programmed mechanics are that you kill them by sacrificing them to the Entity.
That is the Killer PLAYER'S goal; to kill them.
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ok buddy, not sure why you are trying to argue a non existent point, play how you want
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I'm not sure you know what words mean, at this point. Or do you think you claiming I don't have a point magically makes it so?
Let me be more clear:
- YOU deciding Killers don't kill does not mean they don't. Because they literally do kill.
- YOU deciding the point of the game is to 'get BP' and that the Killers don't win by killing does not mean that's EVERYONE's goal. Nor does it mean that's actually the point of the game.
- What 'you think' does not govern how other people play the game, or what the winstate is for said game.
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